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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

Old 27th Sep 2008, 10:08
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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"Rules are for the adherence of fools, and the guidance of Wise Men."
( Sir D.Bader CBE,DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, FRAeS,DL,RAF.)

Thanks for putting in the correct version and who it was by

was he prior 9/11 or post ?

Pace
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 10:22
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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That is because pilots are expected to have at least an average level of wisdom, and have sufficient understanding of the rules to be properly guided by them. Anyone who thinks a rule doesn't apply to them for no compelling reason other than their own whim, is a fool, for whom the lack of adherence will probably bite them hard !

9/11 made no particular difference in this concept.
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 10:42
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Pace

"was he prior 9/11 or post ?"

You're having a laugh, right?

Enough room in your 'cheek' for the tongue?
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 10:58
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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>That is because pilots are expected to have at least an average level of wisdom, and have sufficient understanding of the rules to be properly guided by them. Anyone who thinks a rule doesn't apply to them for no compelling reason other than their own whim, is a fool, for whom the lack of adherence will probably bite them hard !

9/11 made no particular difference in this concept.<

Bealzebub

I was having a laugh so lighten up I am sure Sir D Bader did not mean choose whichever rules you like to follow and to hell with the rest.

In society in general there are loads of rules which are madness created by regulators trying to justify their jobs in our big brother burocratic states and fought from many quarters.

Aviation is no different and I am sure you are aware of the mass of damaging proposed regulations which are fought by various aviation bodies and groups as well as individuals almost weekly.

That is what I think he meant.

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Old 27th Sep 2008, 12:32
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure what your inference is here.

I would have suspected hemorrhoids from sitting so long and a need for cushioning
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 12:43
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Smile simple question . . . . . . .

You wouldn't get haemorrhoids from a four hour flight !

I have a "stupid" question and I am sure I might get a lot of wise answers. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Is this allowed?
He may simply be asking if the crew are allowed to exit the flight deck AT ALL during flight ! Some non-fliers have weird ideas about this.

Yes, crews can exit the F/D, if only to use the toilet ! All companies will have their own procedures to check first that no suspicious characters are lurking before the door is unlocked !
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 14:31
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure what your inference is here.

I would have suspected hemorrhoids from sitting so long and a need for cushioning
Was a stupid question, but the reply from the professional was on the same level.
Oh...and some professional pilots wonder why they do not get the respect they demand. I said demand because respect should be deserved by actions and attitude.
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 14:34
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with Pace - post 9/11, the tinest little things are being taken out of all proportion and everyone is acting like the aircraft would blow up simply because someone other than a pilot was on the flight deck.

I wish someone would return the world to some form of rational place - right now it is completely irrational.

We're acting as if terrorists are on every street corner, when they're not. It's called PARANOIA, and it's going to destroy the world more than any terrorist ever could.

Has anyone here actually looked into the events that occurred to the four aircraft hijacked on 9/11? Not one pilot managed a single mayday, hijack call or managed to change the transponder code prior to the hijackers turning them off. Not one, out of 8 pilots.

ECAM Actions.
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 14:47
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Fully agree!

Anyway if you look at the Macau thread you will find that a pilot did not take a Hong Kong-Macau ferry because was not vetoed by the Union, and therefore not safe. Some comment on the thread were on the line "a crew in uniform is in danger of terrorist".
I wonder where we draw the line?
Regards
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 14:47
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy agreed, but . . . . . . . . .

I wish someone would return the world to some form of rational place
Yes, don't we all ! Starting, of course, with Osama Bin Liner Esq.
Wish, by all means, but it's not going to happen !
The present restrictions are not going to change in most of our lifetimes.
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 14:57
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone here actually looked into the events that occurred to the four aircraft hijacked on 9/11? Not one pilot managed a single mayday, hijack call or managed to change the transponder code prior to the hijackers turning them off. Not one, out of 8 pilots.
Do you think that might just be because they were surprised and overwhelmed by groups of flight deck intruders on each flight and were trying to stop themselves being murdered ?
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 15:17
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Red face

Do you think that might just be because they were surprised and overwhelmed by groups of flight deck intruders
PRECISELY ! ! !

Which is exactly the reason why access to the flight deck should be strictly limited in the way it is now . . . . . at least until some completely reliable means of pre-identifying those with malice aforethought is found and proven.
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 15:54
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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"Rules are for the adherence of fools, and the guidance of Wise Men."
( Sir D.Bader CBE,DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, FRAeS,DL,RAF.)
Are you implying that a pilot that let a 15 years old taking his seat and get photographed doing that is a Wise Men?
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Old 27th Sep 2008, 18:18
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Do you think that might just be because they were surprised and overwhelmed by groups of flight deck intruders on each flight and were trying to stop themselves being murdered ?
The pilots of Flight 93 weren't surprised - the company sent a message via ACARS to all company aircraft to be aware of cockpit intrusion a good 10-15 minutes before.

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Old 27th Sep 2008, 18:30
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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You mean they saw it coming and simply chose not to alert anybody? Get real! Company messages may not be read during busy periods, and even where they were, there was quite obviously a complete surprise for all the reasons you have already mentioned. Unless you are one of the "conspiracy theorists", in which case please call again when you are next visiting our planet!
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Old 28th Sep 2008, 23:45
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Areyu/iceman

I am not a pilot... or havent you been paying attention? I am here because I investigate serious untoward incidents mainly on behalf of the Health and Safety Executive and Healthcare Commission. I specialise in healthcare incidents but have also considerable experience in transport incidents.

Lets get this very straight... I can and do investigate people like yourself when things go wrong. I have qualifications and experience not as aircrew or a surgeon but in risk management and NEBOSH that give me the ability to do so.

My instance of a drunk pilot is not irrelevant as it is a very marked example of how a passenger can confront the practices of a flight crew. I would also complain very strongly if I saw a child in a cockpit with his hands on the yoke.... is that relevant enough for you or do you think that just saying that I dont have pilot's qualifications that it wont mean that the captain that allowed such a practice wont be sacked? You really need to appreciate that people dont just accept the "oh you are just SLF" any more.

Your arrogance will either get you sacked or killed. And you are a far bigger fool than I ever will be because you cannot listen to others.
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Old 29th Sep 2008, 05:10
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

....so what happened in the Aeroflot incident? How come the copilot did not notice the exit of normal flight in time to recover....As a paying passenger I would be fuming to know that the person(s) responsible for my life allow such events to occur... In aviation all can go to hell very quickly, why risk it further by such stunts....
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Old 29th Sep 2008, 06:26
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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They were chit-chatting with the uncle of the boy who was a passenger and was standing behind both pilots. I believe the Capt.'s daughter was there too. She sat first, put the hands on the yoke and her dad (Capt.) said to turn soft the aircraft to one side. She did it with minor pressure as the Capt. changed a couple of degrees in the heading selector of the auto pilot system, so it would look like if the daughter physically turned the plane.

Then the son's turn came and the dad did the same thing. By this point the FO was turned backwards talking to the uncle standing behind, the daughter was around, the Capt. was also talking with them and there were suddenly some seconds were the kid was the only one with his hands and his attention towards the aircraft. He tried to turn the yoke but it was locked due to the autopilot being on and was hard to move. As kids are, he tried harder and by this he disconnected the autopilot. I think the aircraft didn't have an audible signal for an autopilot off prompt, I believe there was only a light signal which to the rest, obviously went unnoticed. All this is based on what I've read, I'm not expert in the autopilot system in question.

It was during the night so it was dark, and the aircraft begun to enter slowly into a spiral dive. It is interesting to note why is it that the pilots, after the kid told them something was wrong, only paid attention to discrepancies in the their navigation instruments but not in their flight instruments. I would think one of the first things to check is if the AP is on and if it is or is not then see if the aircraft is in a proper attitude plus altitude, speed, and heading.

As far as I personally agree to maybe take your son to the cockpit just as an observer and behind you when flying airliners and to only touch the controls if we were flying a small Cessna where I can see everything he does, this accident shows how pilots get easily relaxed and can get easily distracted. As a pilot I think you gotta be a bit paranoid; it helps you think in what things could happen if A, B or C. And if it really happens you might find yourself a bit more prepared and anticipate problems. These Aeroflot pilots clearly didn't foresee this.

DU
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Old 29th Sep 2008, 08:10
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Angel Mercurydancer

I think you are the one suffering from arrogance Mercurydancer. If you would care to read my post I only asked what your profession was so that I could understand your comments. You may well have the qualifications you say and
I am here because I investigate serious untoward incidents mainly on behalf of the Health and Safety Executive and Healthcare Commission. I specialise in healthcare incidents but have also considerable experience in transport incidents.
Please inform us as to which aircraft accidents / incidents that you have investigated, were you a member of the AAIB?

Your argument of a drunk pilot is just sensationalist and as a so called professional investigator an extremely childish one. Nobody has been defending that sort of action!

You may have qualifications on risk management but you do it from the comfort of your stationary chair in a stationary office with plenty of time to think. Some of us have to make quick decisions in a fast moving office and a huge amount of risk management has gone into our training and procedures.

You also seem to be suffering from this ridiculous feeling that you have the "right" to start complaining about things you "think" the crew might or might not be able to do, just because you are an "intelligent" passenger. WRONG or is that sort of interference not covered in your risk management training.

There is nothing wrong with you being here and contributing to the discussion just don't pontificate and use childish arguments. You are making very "quick" and incorrect assumptions about me and my experience - very good investigative traits I think not!!

Last edited by iceman50; 29th Sep 2008 at 12:01. Reason: sp
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Old 29th Sep 2008, 10:31
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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FrequentLF

Events like allowing a 15 year old young enthusiast happened everyday before 9/11 now the Captain is sacked.

I agree we will never return to the way it was before 9/11 and that is a sad reflection of society.

I read with horror that in the past year the uk government have introduced 3000 new criminal offences

We have become obsessed with regulating anything that moves or breathes and turning ourselves into a disapproving big brother state which is miles away from the big speeches of defending freedom.

We are now less free and more controlled than ever and my postings are more a reflection of that sad state than an expectance that things will change back to before.

Where will it all stop! next will be that the doors are welded up to the passenger compartment, new pilot doors placed by the cockpit. No communication with Cabin crew! they would have to communicate by radio via a third party ground station as communication could be a threat and pilots escorted ny guards to and from the aircraft may seem far fetched but with are obsession with rule making who knows ?

Pace
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