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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

Old 3rd Oct 2008, 21:36
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Captplaystation

Well put ! I dont think any of us are expecting or wanting a return to pre 9/11days as those have long since gone. any idea of a return is pie in the sky.

Maybe its more of an uneasiness at where we have arrived at and a concern of where we could go to that has created such an unease in this thread.

I am cynical where governments are concerned and suspicious of the motives.
I detest Hypocracy and feel that both the Green issues and the security issues have been used for self motives by numerous governments in the name of Green issues and security.

I would have a lot more appreciation of the regulations if they were handed out in a level and equal manner across all modes of transport .But they are not especially cocerning aviation.

The message which has come through in this thread is that most of the oldtimers who have a soul and loved their work and spurred such passionate debate would not want the aviation we have today.

That is where we have lost. We have lost in the freedoms we had, the pure adventure, passion, colour and individual thinking of pilots and are replaced with the computer and the regulations and the almost computer and cold brains of the modern pilot.

Maybe its that, that some of us mourn. In the future computers will rule and the pilot would be better called a monitor of computers a flight deck manager more than the colourful and exciting idea of a pilot that used to be.

Pace
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Old 4th Oct 2008, 18:56
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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SLF Chicken Muncher to King Captain

Hey, while I agree that sitting in the control seat is a whole HEAP of fun for a youngster, I assume the pilot was responsible enough ( I hope) to have the plane in such a condition that the little lad could have the fun without the obvious risks. Frankly, i would rather he get his jollies elsewhere!

I also think it reasonable that if I am paying the SLF fare - thus your wages - that this be the case.

You want to encourage new pilots? Then perhaps spend a bit less time slagging off the fare payers and dig into your well lined pockets to give children the experience. Flying is not a theme park ride; or is it, and therefore the whole illusion of your competency just a sham?

Do reply; this media hack would love to hear of it!
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Old 4th Oct 2008, 19:02
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Ankaput

No the air crew's skill and competence isnt an illusion its real and very relevant despite the Hal9000 stylee posts here.
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Old 4th Oct 2008, 20:58
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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I think back to my youth when my father who was a commercial pilot for a small airline used to get 50 feet off the ground and hand the plane over to me. He was no maverick - an A-Cat airforce pilot for 24 years, flew the queen mother round all over the place back in the day.

Different story when you have a twin engine jet with a hundred or so people on board, but why get so PC - the captain would have still been in control, there are two flight crew you know... I find it hard to believe that the coolest experience in some kids life turns out to be the worst experience in some experienced pilots life... its a bit bloody silly.

This was nothing like the Aeroflot incident that others refer to.
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Old 5th Oct 2008, 00:53
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I have no time for operators or individuals that adopt an 'A la carte' approach to regulations......
Well, well, well, it would seem, ASFKAP, that we have at last found some common ground.

Maybe....
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Old 5th Oct 2008, 06:01
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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youcangetholdofjules

This was nothing like the Aeroflot incident that others refer to.
Can you substantiate such claim?
Thanks
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Old 5th Oct 2008, 06:28
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

Most Airline Companies Have Very Strict Policy , NO Other people are allowed in the FD except for the crew. I have no idea whats gone into the Captain's head , but he must have a good reason for letting the kid sit on his chair. Still i dont think its right. there are still a lot of risks, knowing hes got a few hundred of souls in the cabin to think of.
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Old 5th Oct 2008, 17:38
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Did I Miss Out

Am I in the minority here as a professional Airline Pilot who did not enjoy a great cockpit visit as a youngster? I spent many a day wandering around/sitting in parked S/E Cessnas at a local flying school but never enjoyed my first flight til age 20. Tried to visit the F/D then but was politely informed by one of the CC that the Capt was not able to accomodate us at that time (if he/she ever got the request). I wondered if it was because we were four males in our early twenties who were obviously not of the same family. (We were on our way to attend a training course). That disappointment did not dim my desire to become a pilot.

youcangetholdofjules quote...

"I find it hard to believe that the coolest experience in some kids life turns out to be the worst experience in some experienced pilots life... its a bit bloody silly. "

The "coolest experience" in the life of that lad aboard Aeroflot resulted in the worst experience in the lives of all aboard! I wonder if the loved ones left behind thinks it was worth it. I accept that there were differences on that Aeroflot FD, it is the similarities that I have issues with. There has to be a standard and if it takes another "rule" to ensure we all act responsibly then so be it.

My first flight mentioned above was in the back of a 747 to LHR. The next time I landed at LHR (23 yrs later) was in the RH seat of a wide-body jet. My point? A refused FD visit will not put off someone with the love and desire to become an aviator, especially if the refusal includes an invitation to visit while at the gate.

An emergency willl not automatically result every time a visitor sits at the controls of an airliner in flight or a kid is told to flick some light switch or other. However; since things can go horribly wrong without warning, why add another variable/distraction?
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Old 6th Oct 2008, 22:33
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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This is all about judgment, and the guy made the wrong call, just as Pablo did.

He knew the rules and he chose not to follow them. Whether they are right, wrong or downright silly.

I expect that many here will disagree but he knew the risks (to his career) but failed to exercise the judgment required to keep his job.

I have some sympathy for him but in the end he only has himself to blame.
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Old 8th Oct 2008, 10:44
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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I have watched this debate with growing interest and I agree with Flash8 in that if the pilot breached company regs, then he should expect disciplinary action. Its pretty simple.

I also tend to agree with mercury dancer with regards his views that risk mitigation processes can be applied across various professions, especially where high levels of responsibility/severe consequences are placed with an individual. Whether you see him as arrogant or not is irrelevant as to whether he makes valid points, so his views should be considered without the initial reaction of him not being a pilot and not knowing what he is talking about.
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Old 8th Oct 2008, 11:52
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Judgement

It's pretty simple really, just ask yourself if you'd let a kid sit in your seat while you left the flight deck. If the answer's Yes, then I'd worry about being on your aeroplane personally.

In the days when FD visits were common I once had a couple of 10 year olds up front with their little flyer log books & one suddenly reached for both red fire handles saying, "What happens if I pull these?" He left rather faster than he was anticipating & backwards too.
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Old 8th Oct 2008, 22:41
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Let's put two things straight:

1) Anyone confusing cockpit with kindergarden does not deserve a seat in the front row. Full stop. Yes, I'm a pilot myself. Anyone telling me he would be comfortable and the situation would be completely under control while allowing a child to touch controls and sitting in his seat - does not know much about children. Perhaps you guys spend a little more time at home watching your own ones. Yes, I'm a father myself.

2) Anyone talking that arrogant and dirty about his / her customers as it appears to be common amongst certain people here, does not deserve to have a well paid job in the service industry. I'm a frequent customer as well, and I don't like to be spit at (verbally) nor my concerns to be to hold up to ridicule.

In case you don't understand: It's a completely different story what you do in your own / rented single engine than in a commercial airliner while on duty. Amazing how this could be mixed up by people who are so proud that they pass their tests twice a year...


EDIT
Just added, so it isn't mixed up: This has NOTHING to do with 9/11 hysteria, hermetically closed cockpit door or allowing an adult / adolescent in the jump seat. It's just about kids in your own seat and physically at the controls while flying, which should be a no-no to any intelligent person, regardless of regulations. For those who are crying about the relationship to their little admirers: Simply invite them while on ground.

Last edited by TripleBravo; 8th Oct 2008 at 23:02.
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 07:41
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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It's pretty simple really, just ask yourself if you'd let a kid sit in your seat while you left the flight deck. If the answer's Yes, then I'd worry about being on your aeroplane personally.

In the days when FD visits were common I once had a couple of 10 year olds up front with their little flyer log books & one suddenly reached for both red fire handles saying, "What happens if I pull these?" He left rather faster than he was anticipating & backwards too.
I think we are really ALL missing the point and making media/press like colourful statements is irrelevant.

For me this is not about whether an ADHD kid starts grabbing at things on his cockpit visit its something more fundamental.

Prior to 9/11 and going back decades before and probably millions of cockpit visits I would imagine that statistically the chances of a cockpit visit being the cause of serious threat to the aircraft would not figure. So this has to be more about a change of attitude and percieved threat since 9/11.

For me this thread is about the isolation of the crew post 9/11. I think it was PPL AME who brought up a valid point of boredom and isolation on the flight deck causing stress level increases. Maybe someone has the statistics for accidents caused by boredom?

Taking away the inflamatory examples of wayward kids why dont we look at the fact that the Captain no longer has a walk back to mingle with his customers or chat with the cabin crew while now the crew are isolated and locked away.

Being equally colourful. Where do we stop?

Weld up the cabin door, cut out pilot doors, install toilet and wash facilities in the cockpit.
Then why not security guards to transport the crew to the aircraft. Have no communication with the cabin crew incase the crew make emotional descisions and have the cabin crew contact the crew through third parties ground based by radio.

The ground based operators can then sift through the messages and decide whether they should be passed or not? Just in case!

Pace
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 07:59
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Unhappy boredom IS a problem . . . . . . . .

For me this thread is about the isolation of the crew post 9/11. I think it was AMEandPPL who brought up a valid point of boredom and isolation on the flight deck causing stress level increases. Maybe someone has the statistics for accidents caused by boredom?
No cold statistics, I'm afraid. There might be somewhere, but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one ! In an accident report the words "inattention" or "distraction" are much more likely to be used than "boredom".

Just my own observations and experience. Prior to 11 Sept 2001 all my visitors enjoyed all aspects of the job, and that included the "social" side whilst in a long stable cruise. Mingling with passengers down at the back, or having visitors up at the front - both passed the time very nicely. Boredom was NEVER EVER mentioned.

But it is now, by almost ALL of my visitors who fly long-haul. Much less likely to occur on short-haul or domestic, for obvious enough reasons.
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 20:43
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Whilst I get a little (!) upset about visitors to the FD I have appreciated FD crew walking the aircraft and talking to passengers. Mainly on long haul for obvious reasons. Without exception the FD crew have been courteous and have responded to my obvious interest in aviation. I have had many fascinating conversations with pilots, completely unlike the response I have had in this thread, which mystifies me.
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 21:22
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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I'm nobbut an SLF, but I've been lucky enough to enjoy the odd FD visit over the years. It's an exhilarating experience if you enjoy flying, like I do.

However, a lot of people "put up" with flying, rather than enjoying it. And sitting in a comfy(ish) cabin watching the clouds float by is very different from being "up front".

On my last FD visit (Virgin 747 from Las Vegas, July 00) my wife was with me, only her 2nd trip on a plane. She was okay in the cabin, but very nervous in the cockpit when we were being shown the various gadgets (pilot demonstrated the weather radar, etc). She said afterwards that the fact that "no-one was holding the steering wheel" absolutely terrified her, and she was scared that "playing with the controls" would somehow hurt the plane.

I think this is probably a common feeling, and I promise you, she'd never get on a plane again if she thought someone who didn't really know what they were doing had their hands on the wheel.

Just to say, though, that a lot of passengers (me included) have nothing but respect for air crew so please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Also a big thanks to the Thompsonfly pilot who let my 6yr old daughter have a quick peek in the cockpit after landing at Doncaster this summer, she's still talking about it three months later. Think you've got a pilot-in-training booked for about 2028...
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 22:24
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[QUOTE]"Prior to 9/11 and going back decades before and probably millions of cockpit visits I would imagine that statistically the chances of a cockpit visit being the cause of serious threat to the aircraft would not figure. So this has to be more about a change of attitude and percieved threat since 9/11." [unquote].

Totally true!! 9/11 changed the threat level therefore the response level MUST be changed. In the "good old days" hijackers generally wanted to negotiate, they had demands and gave the powers to be the opportunity to respond to these demands. An unlawful interference could have an outcome other then the destruction of aircraft and loss of life. There were NO DEMANDS on that fateful Sept day, we were not given a chance to negotiate.

The modus operandi of (at least some) hijackers had changed. The industry's (regulators') response must change appropriately- if they are willing to use airliners as missiles then they must be denied control of said airliners. A re-inforced cockpit door does the job and everytime we open that door for non-essential reasons (letting visitors in and out for instance) expose ourselves unnecessarily.

One poster, in a number of different posts, asks sarcastically if we need to weld cockpit doors, totally isolate the cockpit etc. This extreme is not necessary, the current system if used properly does the job.
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 22:54
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Boredom And Flying

AME an PPL. interesting comments by your "patients" as to one of the negative impacts the enhanced cockpit security system has had on them.

I remember an old pilot telling me a number of years ago that the day I felt I had nothing else to learn is the day I should stop flying. I find there are so many things I could or should be doing during cruise, boredom I find will come about when I decide to do nothing. There are so many things I can still learn or re-learn about my aircraft, ATC, regs etc. So many questions of what-ifs I can indulge in, either by myself or in a discussion with other crew members.

I had the (mis)fortune of flying trans-atlantic with a capt who was able to talk for the entire crossing (felt like it anyway). He was an airplane mechanic before he started flying and also had a lot of flying experience on a number of aircraft. Once I overcame my initial annoyance, I actually learnt a lot from our discussions.

A walk thru the aircraft is a great way to stretch the legs and meet some of the pax. I would only do that with an augmented crew. Never on a two pilot FD.
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Old 9th Oct 2008, 23:55
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tuskegee Airman

One poster, in a number of different posts, asks sarcastically if we need to weld cockpit doors, totally isolate the cockpit etc. This extreme is not necessary, the current system if used properly does the job.
I think you a referring to me It was not a sarcastic but cynical view. 9/11 could have happened at any time since the birth of commercial flight but didnt until that fateful day.

You say the present system in your words
A re-inforced cockpit door does the job and everytime we open that door for non-essential reasons (letting visitors in and out for instance) expose ourselves unnecessarily.
But I say any opening of the door exposes a crack in security. The present system is only percieved as secure until someone breaches that security and exposes those cracks.

We went prob 50 years and and millions of cockpit visitors until someone got the idea of using an aircraft as a missile. Then all change!

But is the present system as secure as you say or only until someone breaches that sense of security? Any group so committed will find a way through the present system either by fooling the crew to go back and open that door or by waiting for one of the crew to visit the toilets. It only takes a rush and a shove to gain access.

So yes it works as long as it works as did cockpit visits in 50 years prior to 9/11 but any crack will be exploited by people who are determined enough and a crack is a crack.

So maybe my fanciful and colourful view ahead of welding up cockpit doors isnt so fanciful and colourful and hence where do we stop and is there another way?

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 10th Oct 2008 at 00:16.
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Old 10th Oct 2008, 01:43
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Aah Pace you saw right through that. I was indeed referring to your posts . Cynical is a much more appropriate word, thanks for setting me straight there.

Security systems are just that.... secure til breached!! The bad guys unfortunately have the initiatives in these instances. They can sit back and observe your security for as long as they want then choose the time and place to attempt a breach.

We (the good guys) have to put multi-layered security systems in place; from the time of check-in, thru the security scanners etc. Ending with denial of the cockpit to any unauthorised person.

Opening the cockpit door does present a "crack". Hopefully individual airlines have by now developed simple procedures to minimise the attendant risks, my airline has. The fewer times the door gets opened-the fewer the cracks.

A totally self-contained flt deck, inaccessible from the cabin? On the face of it doesn't seem such a bad idea. Til then I firmly believe the current system can work if used properly. Cockpit door opening and access only when essential and in accordance with the airlines SOPs. FD visits welcomed at the gate. Of course IMHO
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