15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired
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Well you have a chance of being involved in a car crash, so would you just not drive? You have a chance of being run over crossing the road, so will you stop walking outside? It's a bit of a silly reason not to do something que no?
And as I have repeatedly said, I obey all the rules prescribed to me. That is not the arguement. The point of this discussion is whether the rules regarding the ban on flight deck visits in flight are still valid, on which I'm still unclear of your position and whatever reasons you have.
Yes this turkish captain appears to have took both barrells and lost his job, which for a breach of SOP that serious (considering the climate of fear in which we live) is probably about par for the course. I'm not advocating pilots to start letting people into the flightdeck, in some kind of "we'll show them" display of ideology. IN fact I know if the skipper next to me was thinking of letting someone in I would have to firmly say NO, based on current rules and SOP.
Now whether I AGREE with the rules is the point of discussion. But under no circumstance would I break them to prove a point.
Just to be clear.
Atreyu
And as I have repeatedly said, I obey all the rules prescribed to me. That is not the arguement. The point of this discussion is whether the rules regarding the ban on flight deck visits in flight are still valid, on which I'm still unclear of your position and whatever reasons you have.
Yes this turkish captain appears to have took both barrells and lost his job, which for a breach of SOP that serious (considering the climate of fear in which we live) is probably about par for the course. I'm not advocating pilots to start letting people into the flightdeck, in some kind of "we'll show them" display of ideology. IN fact I know if the skipper next to me was thinking of letting someone in I would have to firmly say NO, based on current rules and SOP.
Now whether I AGREE with the rules is the point of discussion. But under no circumstance would I break them to prove a point.
Just to be clear.
Atreyu
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spot the tiny minority . . . . . . . . .
The point is that not everyone is a wannabe terrorist
Until then, my answer to your question:
whether the rules regarding the ban on flight deck visits in flight are still valid
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I think this site is excelllent, everybody welcome to rant about anything- a bit like mental chess. Watch how the thread very quickly departs from the subject matter and then its like a good old bun fight.
One can always spot the real pilots, they tend to spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar, to me, a sign of attention to the finest detail, which is a significant advantage whilst flying. Then using the most acidic put-downs, albeit in a very subtle manner and tone. It beats watching the telly.
KingCap
One can always spot the real pilots, they tend to spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar, to me, a sign of attention to the finest detail, which is a significant advantage whilst flying. Then using the most acidic put-downs, albeit in a very subtle manner and tone. It beats watching the telly.
KingCap
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not always . . . . . . . ! !
Watch how the thread very quickly departs from the subject matter
Agree with you about getting grammar and spelling correct, though !
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Hah! I've always thought the same as KingCaptain. I believed I was the only one who had a crazy idea like that. But it's true! It does indeed reflect how pilots are the way they write and spell.
Sorry for drifting off the main topic.
DU
Sorry for drifting off the main topic.
DU
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ASFKAP,
It seems you're not really reading my posts. I'll reiterate, I'm clear on my Ops manual and it's postion on in flight visits. They are NOT permitted. And I follow these rules to the letter. So your entire last post was pretty pointless because trust me, it won't be happening if I'm there.
The whole topic is about whether you agree with the rules or not, not the application of these specific rules, of which we have no choice; either comply or lose your job.
AMEandPPL,
Fair game, At least you're on the side of caution with that approach, which is commendable. I'm not totally in favour of either approach, although in my opinion it should be the commander who has the final say I can see the potentional dangers regarding bona fides. Similarly the profession being as 'locked down' as it is makes it difficult for the travelling public to imagine us as anything except button pushers, a mere bus driver of the sky which isn't great either. Even a ground visit doesn't quite convey the magic does it?
Even the design of the very door that protects us on my type means it has to be shut to let the pax on/off! So we truly are locked away!
Atreyu
It seems you're not really reading my posts. I'll reiterate, I'm clear on my Ops manual and it's postion on in flight visits. They are NOT permitted. And I follow these rules to the letter. So your entire last post was pretty pointless because trust me, it won't be happening if I'm there.
The whole topic is about whether you agree with the rules or not, not the application of these specific rules, of which we have no choice; either comply or lose your job.
AMEandPPL,
Fair game, At least you're on the side of caution with that approach, which is commendable. I'm not totally in favour of either approach, although in my opinion it should be the commander who has the final say I can see the potentional dangers regarding bona fides. Similarly the profession being as 'locked down' as it is makes it difficult for the travelling public to imagine us as anything except button pushers, a mere bus driver of the sky which isn't great either. Even a ground visit doesn't quite convey the magic does it?
Even the design of the very door that protects us on my type means it has to be shut to let the pax on/off! So we truly are locked away!
Atreyu
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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired
I've read a lot of touching, heart-breaking stories here about pre-career experiences on the flight deck (like #46, the lap story).
But it is so far away from a truly professional attitude which must be expected from people in charge.
Telling the story, about other times, is one thing. Trying to convince the audience that it was ok and regretting these things have sadly changed and should still be that way puts me off. It is an offense to all those who let their lives. It is ignorant not to use the experience and act wiser and more professional.
SOPs, rules and regulations, the law, it's all there not to bug you, but because someone did a mistake some time ago, and payed for it, dead too early. The results then change the rules, make flying safer.
What keeps me going (with this attitude, I mean sticking to the rules, except for situations making it deemed neccessary to break them) is the one and very true main fact: all of those breaking the rules and thereby making mistakes ending up in a catastrophe never forsaw the outcome, or else they would have not acted so. It was LACK OF IMAGINATION that made them think it would not happen, or made them believe they were superior or invulnerable or immortal.
You find it everywhere man is active, on the road, when people use dangerous tools, children playing with forbidden things, like fire, and on the flight deck: when commanders let amateurs sit in a pilots seat inflight.
So, and hereby referring to the complaints about our customers having no more respect these days: be more professional, and your passengers will be more respectful and say thank you and goodbye when leaving the ship.
But it is so far away from a truly professional attitude which must be expected from people in charge.
Telling the story, about other times, is one thing. Trying to convince the audience that it was ok and regretting these things have sadly changed and should still be that way puts me off. It is an offense to all those who let their lives. It is ignorant not to use the experience and act wiser and more professional.
SOPs, rules and regulations, the law, it's all there not to bug you, but because someone did a mistake some time ago, and payed for it, dead too early. The results then change the rules, make flying safer.
What keeps me going (with this attitude, I mean sticking to the rules, except for situations making it deemed neccessary to break them) is the one and very true main fact: all of those breaking the rules and thereby making mistakes ending up in a catastrophe never forsaw the outcome, or else they would have not acted so. It was LACK OF IMAGINATION that made them think it would not happen, or made them believe they were superior or invulnerable or immortal.
You find it everywhere man is active, on the road, when people use dangerous tools, children playing with forbidden things, like fire, and on the flight deck: when commanders let amateurs sit in a pilots seat inflight.
So, and hereby referring to the complaints about our customers having no more respect these days: be more professional, and your passengers will be more respectful and say thank you and goodbye when leaving the ship.
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...by making no such foolish mistakes as letting a kid sit in the pilots seat of an airliner moving at 450 knots in unservivable atmosphere and ignoring murphy's law.
Engine failures just happen.
Reversers open in cruise (Lauda Air, Thailand).
Decompressions occur.
What will the commander do at 37.000 feet, standing behind his visitor, unable to take his occupied seat, in such a situation? What will happen to the flight, if the Co has difficulties gaining control, or gets tangled up with his O2-mask, in this very special situation? Different having an empty seat to access then, compared to a kid to be removed first.
Has this to be considered?
By a professional, yes.
Hopefully, no such thing will happen to me in my career. But if so, chances are, I, and hence my company, will get credit by the media if things are run MORE PROFESSIONALLY (see recent Quantas decompression, media response absolutely positive).
Engine failures just happen.
Reversers open in cruise (Lauda Air, Thailand).
Decompressions occur.
What will the commander do at 37.000 feet, standing behind his visitor, unable to take his occupied seat, in such a situation? What will happen to the flight, if the Co has difficulties gaining control, or gets tangled up with his O2-mask, in this very special situation? Different having an empty seat to access then, compared to a kid to be removed first.
Has this to be considered?
By a professional, yes.
Hopefully, no such thing will happen to me in my career. But if so, chances are, I, and hence my company, will get credit by the media if things are run MORE PROFESSIONALLY (see recent Quantas decompression, media response absolutely positive).
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professional "appearance" . . . . . . . . .
Got any tips on how to appear more professional?
If you feel you have GOT to be seen to be appreciated ( are there any personal self-confidence / self-image issues here ? ) why not dash to the bottom of the steps or to the airbridge before the departing passengers, and shake each one's hand with a smile as they go ?
Finally, of course, interested visitors can always be received on the F/D once parked on the ground. I noted your remark about the awkward doors, but just ask them to wait in their seats a few extra minutes . . . . . . they'll still be off well before the hour it takes to get the luggage to the carousel ! ! !
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Atreyu
What about letting the kid in the cockpit, if I see that I should say nothing?
A rule was broken, but according to your statement I should shut up because I am not a professional?
Let's make clear that I have high regard for dedication and the professionalism of all of you, but I will always advocate my right to judge and criticise your actions. In this thread we are discussing about people in the cockpit, and a rule was broken. I will NOT and I am NOT judging how you TO, fly and land.
Pugilistic Animus
You could have a point, but in this thread we are not discussing how
KingCaptain
From a post of Atreyu
It isn't your place to judge or criticise what we do at the front. Regardless of your intelligence levels, if your not a professional pilot, then how can you accurately judge or criticise the perfromance of my duties?
A rule was broken, but according to your statement I should shut up because I am not a professional?
Let's make clear that I have high regard for dedication and the professionalism of all of you, but I will always advocate my right to judge and criticise your actions. In this thread we are discussing about people in the cockpit, and a rule was broken. I will NOT and I am NOT judging how you TO, fly and land.
Pugilistic Animus
Negative, No you are not!!!
you know nothing!!!!
you know nothing!!!!
Could you handle an engine failure on the runway at light weight where the ships wants to flip over---unless you apply full opposite rudder immediate---and nevertheless you have to take that shaking/shuddering aircraft on a very specific departure path?
One can always spot the real pilots, they tend to spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar, to me, a sign of attention to the finest detail, which is a significant advantage whilst flying. Then using the most acidic put-downs, albeit in a very subtle manner and tone. It beats watching the telly.
you accurately judge or criticise the perfromance of my duties?
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AMEandPPL,
I have no issues whatsoever with self confidence, I personally care not whether anyone sees ME. I'm talking about the opinion of my profession in general. I understand your position on this, and believe it or not I try and help deliver all of those things you mention. I'm afraid though some punters don't really appriciate it. The minority see it as "I've paid my money so I can be as rude and as arrogant as I like"
A fellow collegue had a complaint written by a passenger about the landing being a bit rough...
Do you think that's ok then? Because I don't. Fair enough if the crew are rude or the food isn't up to scratch or something like but to pass comment on something they most likely couldn't do any better themselves is laughable and ignorant.
I'm not saying the passengers should feel lucky to be in the presence of the crew but a little respect can go a long way, certainly makes my day if someone pops in after shutdown to say thanks and have a quick look at the flightdeck
Saying that though alot of the turnarounds can be tight, 35 mins or less not being uncommon, so there sometimes isn't much time for visitors, which of course looks bad from a customer service point of view!
I suppose you can't win eh!
Atreyu
I have no issues whatsoever with self confidence, I personally care not whether anyone sees ME. I'm talking about the opinion of my profession in general. I understand your position on this, and believe it or not I try and help deliver all of those things you mention. I'm afraid though some punters don't really appriciate it. The minority see it as "I've paid my money so I can be as rude and as arrogant as I like"
A fellow collegue had a complaint written by a passenger about the landing being a bit rough...
Do you think that's ok then? Because I don't. Fair enough if the crew are rude or the food isn't up to scratch or something like but to pass comment on something they most likely couldn't do any better themselves is laughable and ignorant.
I'm not saying the passengers should feel lucky to be in the presence of the crew but a little respect can go a long way, certainly makes my day if someone pops in after shutdown to say thanks and have a quick look at the flightdeck
Saying that though alot of the turnarounds can be tight, 35 mins or less not being uncommon, so there sometimes isn't much time for visitors, which of course looks bad from a customer service point of view!
I suppose you can't win eh!
Atreyu
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Q... E... D. . . . . . . . . . . ! !
certainly makes my day if someone pops in after shutdown to say thanks and have a quick look at the flightdeck
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Atreyu
Please dont insult me as I can do that to you too....
I did mention that the drunk aricrew was an extreme example but it is valid in that it is a way in which passengers can question aircrew behaviour and procedure. There are many other examples. If you cant handle the point made then dont call me a fool as it just makes you look like a very unprofessional and arrogant aircrew. I respect people who can be professional and can accept discussion about the way they work as no pilot knows everything... but your attitude is the destructive one, not mine.
And whilst you use the example.. yes I do question heart surgeons and other surgeons in their practices.. I do it for a living...
Please dont insult me as I can do that to you too....
I did mention that the drunk aricrew was an extreme example but it is valid in that it is a way in which passengers can question aircrew behaviour and procedure. There are many other examples. If you cant handle the point made then dont call me a fool as it just makes you look like a very unprofessional and arrogant aircrew. I respect people who can be professional and can accept discussion about the way they work as no pilot knows everything... but your attitude is the destructive one, not mine.
And whilst you use the example.. yes I do question heart surgeons and other surgeons in their practices.. I do it for a living...
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AMEandPPL
I fly business jets and as such am mixed in with my passengers. Ok I have a maximum of 8, so what is an ok number as I do not know all my passengers.
16, 32, 100 had I got room for them. I presume its ok for me to be accessed by the passengers because they are known by the owner / company.
So it has to be the unknown factor whether one of the passengers in an airline is a nut case or a terrorist. That is the unknown factor and what you percieve as the threat.
But up until 9/11 visits were commonplace and apart from the odd take me to Cuba in thirty years prior to 9/11 I do not know of many aircraft being jeapordised by passengers maybe I am wrong? It was 9/11 that changed the world and in a very negative, defensive and paranoic way.
With all the security and restrictions on airline flight why should a terrorist want to target aircraft when they can drag a suitcase of explosives unchallenged onto a London Tube packed with 200 odd people.
That I cannot fathom as there are far easier targets with equal impact and none of the risks to themselves or the success of their mission.
The difference is that it would not be practical to police the London Tubes and so government close an eye and keep their fingers crossed.
Have the passengers changed since 9/11? no. The same attrocity could have been carried out 10 /20/30 /40 years ago but it did not happen till that fateful day.
So where do you draw the line in regulating for safety. Is there a threat from the crew leaving their station at all ie going to the loo. Should you regulate that toilet facilities are in the cockpit invironment? Cut a door for pilot access and have no door to the cabin?
At what point does security damage the aircraft industry by making it unattractive or too expensive? Life itself is a risk as is flight itself. There will always be accidents and are as in the Madrid crash.
Had that accident been deemed to be caused by terrorism just imagine the repercussions? but it was not!
So at what point do we stop or is there a better way than the route we take now?
Things will never go back to prior to 9/11 but who won? because one thing I am sure of we did not! the terrorists did big time and that is sad for us all.
Hence when the oldtimers talk of how things used to be it does touch a chord of how things should be and if you have a soul you know they were right.
Pace
I fly business jets and as such am mixed in with my passengers. Ok I have a maximum of 8, so what is an ok number as I do not know all my passengers.
16, 32, 100 had I got room for them. I presume its ok for me to be accessed by the passengers because they are known by the owner / company.
So it has to be the unknown factor whether one of the passengers in an airline is a nut case or a terrorist. That is the unknown factor and what you percieve as the threat.
But up until 9/11 visits were commonplace and apart from the odd take me to Cuba in thirty years prior to 9/11 I do not know of many aircraft being jeapordised by passengers maybe I am wrong? It was 9/11 that changed the world and in a very negative, defensive and paranoic way.
With all the security and restrictions on airline flight why should a terrorist want to target aircraft when they can drag a suitcase of explosives unchallenged onto a London Tube packed with 200 odd people.
That I cannot fathom as there are far easier targets with equal impact and none of the risks to themselves or the success of their mission.
The difference is that it would not be practical to police the London Tubes and so government close an eye and keep their fingers crossed.
Have the passengers changed since 9/11? no. The same attrocity could have been carried out 10 /20/30 /40 years ago but it did not happen till that fateful day.
So where do you draw the line in regulating for safety. Is there a threat from the crew leaving their station at all ie going to the loo. Should you regulate that toilet facilities are in the cockpit invironment? Cut a door for pilot access and have no door to the cabin?
At what point does security damage the aircraft industry by making it unattractive or too expensive? Life itself is a risk as is flight itself. There will always be accidents and are as in the Madrid crash.
Had that accident been deemed to be caused by terrorism just imagine the repercussions? but it was not!
So at what point do we stop or is there a better way than the route we take now?
Things will never go back to prior to 9/11 but who won? because one thing I am sure of we did not! the terrorists did big time and that is sad for us all.
Hence when the oldtimers talk of how things used to be it does touch a chord of how things should be and if you have a soul you know they were right.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Sep 2008 at 00:42.
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Well my friend, If your a surgeon and you question other surgeons, fair enough. But I know I'm not a surgeon, And I sure wouldn't be questioning YOU on what you do and how you do it.
Like it or not the drunk pilot thing was way off topic. I can handle your point but it is completely irrelevant in the context of the thread. Anyway, if your a surgeon and by a look on your profile you hold no flightcrew licences whatsoever, why are you posting in a Flight crew forum?
How does me calling you a fool make me unprofessional in what I do? I just called it as it is. Your post wasn't relevant.
"if you cant handle the point made then dont call me a fool as it just makes you look like a very unprofessional and arrogant aircrew. I respect people who can be professional and can accept discussion about the way they work as no pilot knows everything... but your attitude is the destructive one, not mine.
"
I don't understand how my attitude is destructive, I have engaged in debate with AMEandPPL and never had to call him/her a fool. Why is that I wonder?
Your right no pilot knows EVERYTHING, and I certainly don't, but what gives you the idea that you need to question flightcrew on their procedures?
I await your reply
Atreyu
Like it or not the drunk pilot thing was way off topic. I can handle your point but it is completely irrelevant in the context of the thread. Anyway, if your a surgeon and by a look on your profile you hold no flightcrew licences whatsoever, why are you posting in a Flight crew forum?
How does me calling you a fool make me unprofessional in what I do? I just called it as it is. Your post wasn't relevant.
"if you cant handle the point made then dont call me a fool as it just makes you look like a very unprofessional and arrogant aircrew. I respect people who can be professional and can accept discussion about the way they work as no pilot knows everything... but your attitude is the destructive one, not mine.
"
I don't understand how my attitude is destructive, I have engaged in debate with AMEandPPL and never had to call him/her a fool. Why is that I wonder?
Your right no pilot knows EVERYTHING, and I certainly don't, but what gives you the idea that you need to question flightcrew on their procedures?
I await your reply
Atreyu
are you kidding me!!!!! his hand is barely touching the yoke... this is pure BS....
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I think this site is excelllent, everybody welcome to rant about anything- a bit like mental chess. Watch how the thread very quickly departs from the subject matter and then its like a good old bun fight.
One can always spot the real pilots, they tend to spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar, to me, a sign of attention to the finest detail, which is a significant advantage whilst flying. Then using the most acidic put-downs, albeit in a very subtle manner and tone. It beats watching the telly.
KingCap
One can always spot the real pilots, they tend to spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar, to me, a sign of attention to the finest detail, which is a significant advantage whilst flying. Then using the most acidic put-downs, albeit in a very subtle manner and tone. It beats watching the telly.
KingCap
Problems with using English as the universal aviation language were addressed in an earlier thread.
Or were you joking?
Best to avoid the possibility altogether, by just obeying the rules laid down for everyone's good - whether we like the rules or not.
( Sir D.Bader CBE,DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, FRAeS,DL,RAF.)