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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

Old 24th Sep 2008, 09:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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This Picture is taken from behind...
presumeably from the door area...
So there was a third person in the Flightdeck... It must have been the Cpt himself...
Exactly, So were did someone bring up the idea that he went to the lav? The SUN ?

I not long ago asked to go into the Cockpit of a First Choice 757-28Y... Not knowing what the Policy is and was and was denied access. Obviously i fully agree after 9/11 and other attacks. But i got to go in at the end of the flight. So no complaint there... What's the policy for airlines such as FCA and BA anyway. Don't post here PM me to deny the Likes of the media get there hands on it.

2004 i got to sit in the Captain Seat of a MyTravel A321-XXX but this was once again on the Ground.

A quick question, why do i see many latest pictures of people sitting in the Jumpseats off American Airliners (No not AAL) just those in general and other airlines. No British Airlines but mostly those i just mentioned.

How do they get in? I hear that they have to stay in the cockpit for the whole flight if they want to stay in there.. and can't come out.

Regards,

R...
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 10:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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What would the response have been if the boy had been wearing a hijab, however keen on flying, I wonder.
As Commander, I once strolled around the F/class cabin of a 707 ( as we used to do ) and invited a lonely blonde with big t*ts to go and talk to the other two men on the Flt. Deck and cheer them up. Dark, swarthy, man in front asked if he could also visit the Flt. deck next - looked Arabic to me ( yeah, I know, I know ) so said it was not allowed, he said he heard me invite the girl and so why not him too ? No answer to that, so said I would escort him when I returned. Back on the Flt. deck we started a conversation during which I asked him where he was from. He told me he was a Palestinian Arab - and then roared with laughter and said that of course they weren't all terrorists, which is true. I had recurring nightmares about the potential headline - "Captain invited hijacker to Flt. deck." Still do.

We hold surgeons and judges in high respect ( don't we ? ) because we never get into their Operating Theatre or their Private Chambers, so never really know what goes on and therefore retain a bit of awe. Pilots made the job look too easy, and look where the profession is going now. Bullsh*t Baffles Brains, so keep it up. Sorry kids. ( and of course I've done my share of giving The Dream a kick-start, nevertherless - enjoyed it, too. )

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 24th Sep 2008 at 11:20.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 10:54
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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The Captain's authority IS and SHOULD be, ABSOLUTE.

"The rules" allowed Oxy cylinders to be carried.....Quantas recently had one go bang....so has some f-wit pen-pusher decreed a total ban? -no.

In the case of 9-11 the unthinkable happened because , again, beurocrats cocked it up. they were so busy protecting their little patches of turf from each other, they lost sight of their JOB...IMHO they are the real reason those events unfolded. I'm not saying that NOTHING would have happened, but I have the sneaking suspicion that lots of people would still be alive.

Aircrew are highly trained and aware that if they foul up, the pointy end cops it first....in the air, flight rules and procedures enforce safe passage. the crew should have the discretion to handle their human-cargo management .

just because some desk-wallah has decided that an Asian Pax with 99mil of liquid and a blunt plastic teaspoon, is a threat, DOESN'T MAKE IT A REALISTIC PROBABILITY.

Kids can still visit "the flight deck"...find a local airfield that still has local sightseeing jollies , take them up

My kids got a front seat, a full set of controls and instruments and were low -enough to easily pinpoint potential targets.

Wake up, people, the rules are there for the makers' benifit....to keep you frightened and them in control. all this "security is bx I seriously question the rationality of anyone who thinks otherwise.

"crowded" (or was that "busy" sky....the aircraft had a "space" of @30,000 feet all round it and even a determined 10-year old hercules would have difficulty overriding the inputs of the PIC.....but he wasn't...he was a kid having the thrill of his lifetime....the CAPTAIN had judged he was safe.

rule makers want a good dose of reality
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 11:38
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Sitting on the Captain's lap for Landing

Dwittig. Surely not. If your recollection is correct I cannot think a much more irresponsible act by a pilot.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 11:41
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I think it would be Most Likely that the Captain did NOT take the picture.

he would be the only one who had access to the data on his mobile or camera and would have had to have incriminated himself by placing it on a site where others had access to it (unlikely)

Maybe the Captain and first officer had a bad case of the runs, the first officer left for the loo shortly after the Captain leaving the Lad in control for a while and took the shot on his return ???

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Old 24th Sep 2008, 11:59
  #46 (permalink)  

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You didn't really think that through before you posted did you?

Why would he be using his own camera/phone? He would have used the kids and given it back.

Wonder if he asked the kid 'if he liked to wrestle'?
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 12:15
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Airliners.net;airlinepictures.net........where do the cockpit pictures come from???????

I remember visiting the cockpit of a 737 as a child,that memory has stayed with me to this day. It's a shame that this has become such an issue.

PJ2; it saddens me to read that you have no time for the modern industry with all it's rules and regulations. It must be terrible for the modern pilot to finally realise his dream only to dislike his job.I also work in an industry that's becoming more and more regulated as a result of the actions of a few. It really knocks the good out of day to day living.

ASFKAP; Sometimes you can allow judement to prevail. Zero tolerance also has it's failings.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 12:43
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SLFguy

>You didn't really think that through before you posted did you?<

Actually yes it was a jokey response.

The Captain would equally be asking for trouble taking such a picture with the Kids Camera and knowing it would more than likely end up on a site for the lads mates to see and the rest of the world.

More likely the Kids dad or Guardian while the Captain was away.

Very sad world since 9/11

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Old 24th Sep 2008, 16:57
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But in that incident the kid was allowed to turn the yoke, press buttons and he inadvertently partially disconnected the autopilot transfering the ailerons to manual control whilst keeping other flight systems connected. Then after this the g's became so extreme the captain couldn't replace his son. whilst the bank took place the autopilot made the nose of the aircraft rise to 90 degrees virtually stalling the aircraft and by the time the captain replaced his soon they were to low to recover.

The main causes of the crash were yes the allowance of the children to enter the flightdeck, but also the fact that the crew did not know that on that aircraft the autopilot did not make an audiable sound when dis-engaging. They also did not realise that the aircraft's autopilot had not fully disengaged.

Just out of curiousity is allowance on to the flightdeck prohibited even once at gate with all engines switched off?
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 17:15
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A raised eyebrow and directed to apply to become cabin crew, perhaps?
Ha, ha! I wasn't intending to suggest cross-dressing, I was looking for the term for traditional male dress, and trying to be a little pc!
The point was addressed further down by ExSp33, but of course the "terrorist profile" does not mean a great deal.
The 22 yr old Finn who unexpectedly became homicidal after buying a gun is a case in point.
A few years ago at our local flying club, a business man learnt to solo with the sole intention (it later transpired) of diving into the sea and ending his life in a blaze of glory.
He took no-one with him, but who can judge who might intentionally or unintentionally do something completely unexpected?
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 19:21
  #51 (permalink)  
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AOB9;
PJ2; it saddens me to read that you have no time for the modern industry with all it's rules and regulations. It must be terrible for the modern pilot to finally realise his dream only to dislike his job.
The statements need a bit of elaboration. I loved the job from Day One to the last day when I pushed the VNAV knob for the last time and set the parking brake at the gate, for the last time. I love aviation, welcome the regs as necessary in a highly disciplined profession, welcomed passengers, especially the young ones with stars in their eyes to the cockpit, had FoF passengers in to see that their crew were real people with families etc and spent a great deal of time doing pilot association/representative work, flight safety/flight data work (which I still am doing) and thoroughly enjoyed the layovers, the people and the life - there simply is nothing like it anywhere else!

What has been taken from the profession and a life in aviation is not only what 9/11 and subsequent US reactions has done but the unbelievably parsimonious approach to aviation employees who are today disrespected and treated merely as impediments to profit instead of the highly-skilled and dedicated workforce it was once viewed as. Loyalty in aviation is a lifeline and actually a safety factor but loyalty to employees in all corporations has evaporated, and the "favour" is returned, just like many skilled jobs which have been sent off-shore. While 'twas ever thus in aviation, especially after de-regulation, and especially the last decade has been largely a horrendous experience for airline employees who, because fuel and suppliers' costs are far less controllable than wages and benefits, have watched their careers turn into McJobs, wholly disrespected by an increasingly distant management focussed on cost. True it can be done more cheaply by a legacy carrier and I would never say that an employer is responsible for an employee's "happiness" but the airline business reflects what has happened to corporate America where CEO's are rewarded with millions for failures under the blatant excuse that such largesse is required to "attract the talent", while employees watch as pensions are stolen, wages are higher almost everywhere else and benefits such as basic healthcare programs are under pressure.

Flight crews are not immune to this; you may be surprised to learn but more than a few major carriers pay highly-trained, experienced flight crews who may be new at an airline but who are veteran aviators, less than nurses or teachers fresh out of university- about $28,000 to $36,000 year roughly. A veteran aviator just joining an airline perhaps from the military or from a corporate job cannot raise a family on what airlines pay new pilots. Pensions are heavily regulated in Canada but in the US where companies can use Ch11 to dump pension responsibilities onto the US government, (a precursor to today's disastrous economic circumstances where corporate "governance" has dumped their "mistakes" into government/taxpayer laps).

Sorry to go on, but my comments were made ex-context, and I hope the above provides a bit of perspective. I know of no pilots who do not love their work and are passionate about it - just read their contributions here to know how passionate and dedicated pilots are to their profession, their passengers and even their airline. I have said for years now that the highest form of loyalty is the willingness to look at the warts and criticize one's own heavily enough to effect change, and we do so, regularly.'

The "de-regulation of safety" under "SMS" is a distinct concern where yet more areas of the public regulatory domain are privatized, downloaded to corporate entities for their handling and responsibility. If you have run across my posts elsewhere, you will know that this is a growing concern within our industry, at the very same time that criminalization of accidents is rising.

Having spent 40 years in aviation, 35 of them at a major carrier, it is disappointing and saddening to see how commercial aviation has devolved from a highly respected enterprise to a base, instrumental tool where investors punish swiftly without the slightest sense of the "long view", welcome the harsh treatment of "expensive employees", tolerate CEO bonuses and malfeasance, and have absolutely no notion of what it takes to make, and keep this business safe.

But the smell of the electronics in the cockpit, the smell of castor oil as Connies, DC7's and Northstars fired up, is as intoxicating today as it was when I first set foot in an airliner cockpit in the late-fifties - aviation was the first "blood-borne disease" and what a wonderful one at that! No other profession I know, has that allure, that charm and that power to draw.

PJ2
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 19:54
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Thumbs up

PJ2;
Thank you for that excellent insight into the mind of a dedicated aviator. And for what it's worth I (and many of my friends) have the utmost respect for your profession. We spend hours trawling through website footage and forums like this to feel part of what is truly one of the best jobs in the world. I agree with you that "profit above all" is the order of the day in almost every business now, and I also agree that this must be eroding what is otherwise an occupation with immense job satisfaction.
But this is happening to us all. I work for a HUGE multinational pharma company that are worth BILLIONS. But they are cutting jobs all over the world (including mine) for a number of reasons, not least of which is to keep shareholders happy. People that have spent thousands of their parents and guarantors money to gain PHD's are now being paid a pittance in order to be in employment. Bright youngsters in their twenties are wishing they chose an alternative career and this is in a country where science graduates are at a premium. It's a sign of the times and it's affecting us all.

On a side note; passengers have to suffer too. The thoughts of being on an a/c with some clown blabbing into his mobile phone only 12" away from me is enough to make me stick to my Microsoft Flight Simulator for the view.

Now, someone is going to tell me I'm gone off point so I leave it there. Once again thank you for your long response.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 21:01
  #53 (permalink)  
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AOB9;
You're entirely welcome - it's a sad message to be sure - the "job satisfaction" aspect remains outstanding, which is part of the problem!

I hear you loud and clear re jobs/careers/professions the world over and know that the airline sector/industry merely reflects the worst aspects of this drive to extract maximum profit for minimum investment.

Certainly investors must make a return but it is the way it's done, devaluing the very thing being invested in - it's an old story: Investors and their "co-dependant enablers" our governments, more than ever know, "the cost of everything and the value of nothing" because culture, the arts, the sciences, knowledge, enquiry, right down to the last parsimonious detail: Physical Education in our elementary schools, do not provide an instrumental "return on investment" - an out-of-shape generation with all attendant health costs notwithstanding.

The short-sightedness is profound and while such instrumental attitudes and metrics towards education (elementary through post graduate) have ruled our society since the early '70's, perhaps one aspect of the present fundamental upheavel, is a profit-at-all-cost system "coming home to roost".

I'm not naive enough to believe that there isn't a great deal that is of exceptional value in the way our society "does" economics and politics, but excess, greed, both capitalist values essentially unregulated to a proven harmful degree (now admittedly so in the US) have wrought the terrible opposite of the promise of growth and prosperity within a vibrant democracy. So much more could be said but as such circumstances relate to aviation, the twin drivers of aviation, our spectacularly good safety record and the "romance" of aviation, are sadly today, at "clear and present" risk, and the worst of it is, when the rate begins to climb and when people no longer flock to aviation as a desireable profession, the reasons will have long since been forgotten and down the memory hole. The cyclical nature of the business will bring it around again and employees may yet prosper but the fugoids are pretty spectacular and quite beyond any one sector's ability to respond to and control.

That's the end of the thread drift - I appreciate the tolerance of both the moderators and the members.

PJ2
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 22:33
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Ideed --PJ2---you have given a ggod glimpse of how sad it is nowadays as an aviator---great post but sad---this thread--and it's associated 'drift' inspire great debate alas 9/11 and thirty years of greed---as well as the uptight FD enviroment with endless callouts/SOPS/ regulation and other mgmt. CYA material--that's why I'd rather fly a Kingair or even a Seneca to big iron----but you are correct t'is a sickness
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 05:51
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Unhappy

...

I just have to make one more comment: it saddens me to hear that aviation, once my dream job (alas not to be for me in, professionally), has become a....glorified McDonalds job, I have no other words for it. Such low wages, such pressure on crew, not even the slightest sympathy form passengers..

My hat off to all you men and women who still keep doing their jobs, in spite of such hard circumstances, and still manage to gove me and my wife a smile during flight and a visit to the flight deck after landing.

Sorry for the thread drift, carry on.
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 07:00
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Ooooops,



Jetstar stewardess caught in captain's seat

Streem / News / Jetstar stewardess caught in captain's seat
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 07:30
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Excellent posts, PJ2

The minority make the lives of the majority less pleasurable.

The real stupidity is first, taking the photos, and second, posting them on the internet!
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 08:26
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Britannia 312 - Captain and Co-pilot seats were slightly elevated on a low platform above the flight deck floor ( well pilots do have to be on a pedestal, don't they ! ) Young boy was asked if he would like to sit in the Captains' seat - Ooh ! yes pls. - at which he grabbed the arm rest of the seat with his left hand, and a fistful of throttles with his right hand - the better to lever himself up !!
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 08:45
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707 - Young lady requested visit to the flight deck and stood bearing a small baby in her arms. F/o vacated his seat to visit toilet and suggested that the visitor might like to have some relief from carrying child, and promptly placed said child in his seat - and baby reached forward and touched control column. Very droll, until F/o produced a camera - at which point I vehemently objected ! Altimeter and Machmeter clearly visible. You canna be too carrrrreful.

I echo PJ2's sentiments about the unique experience of the profession - not job - it's ( it was ) above that mundane description. Even my first experiences as a Navigator, crossing the Oceans and the deserts at night, using a sextant and Astro, and the incredible appreciation that only I, as a 23 yr. old, knew precisely where we were ( or at least I thought I did ! ) and science and maths. actually worked, none of this winking lights, electronic, stuff. Magic, glad I didn't miss it. ( tho' I caught myself using two GPS's in a Microlight the other day - to save having to reprogramme one of them for a cross check !! )
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 08:58
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> at which he grabbed the arm rest of the seat with his left hand, and a fistful of throttles with his right hand - the better to lever himself up !!<

There should be plenty of data on passenger induced accidents from visiting the flight deck pre 9/11

I can remember spending hours on the flight deck travelling to the USA, before that taking my kids up front with the excuse of they wanted to see the flight deck

Back in the 80s as a low time PPL i remember the whole flight up front from Milan to the UK and shock of horrors even being allowed to bring back the thrust levers in the descent standing behind the captain.

Now I captain a business jet and it is those sort of experiences which sow the seeds for future pilots.

If anyone wants to indicate what potential horrors might occur you have donkeys years prior to 9/11 where the passengers and crew inter communicated.I am sure a whole stack of evidence of jets being brought down by passenger accidents while up front.

For me the world took a dive after 9/11 gone are the days where people had fun, where we did not take things too seriously.

In its place are Big Brother states, liability laws, regulators, beurocrats, so much personal data that they even know what colour pants you wear! and a finger pointing attitude to even blinking.

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