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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

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15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired

Old 23rd Sep 2008, 20:40
  #21 (permalink)  
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Aeroflot 593 was already mentioned but I'll re-mention it just in case. That was also an "innocent attempt to please a kid". Many people are dead.

It is amazing to me that on the one hand in threads parallel to this one there are highly technical discussions of minute details that may have caused one accident or another (and numerous deaths and injuries) and right here I see people defending captain that permits unauthorized untrained person to be at the controls of flying aircraft, no matter for how short of a time.

Would it be a fair game, then, to have someone's child who is very interested in medicine hold a scalpel or poke around inside while there is a patient being operated on? Would it even be ok to let same 15 y/o drive a car just a little bit on a busy highway? Didn't think so.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 20:47
  #22 (permalink)  
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There really is no respect to the airline crew anymore.
Is related to..

Message to ASFKAP: no you don't pay our wages. The company does. You are a client of the company because you've choosen to fly with us (perhaps for the fare offered, the service, the schedule or the safety records ). As such you are 'accepted' on board of OUR flight.
I happen to have a great deal of respect for the guys who fly me (and pro's who I fly with in GA) but postings on here put a strain on that, even allowing for those that only fly MS Flt sim.

And for the record many business passengers have in practice little choice who they fly with due company policy, route structures, or as you say the schedule.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 21:08
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I understand your thoughts on the subject.

No doubt you are aware that the flight crew are constantly demanding appropriate behaviour from their passengers.
Hence it doesn't strike me as unreasonable that the travelling public should demand that all flight crew are obeying all the rules too.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 21:21
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Thanks for the insult as a First Officer - glad you are so in tune with the world of which you profess to be a frequent traveller.

A couple of things spring to mind:

1) It was a visit to the flight deck of a Monarch 757 in 1989 that first kindled the desire in me to be a pilot

2) Now, at the age of 35 I am finally a "flap operator" as you put it (and which shows your lack of knowledge of things aviation) on a 757 - would I be here if I hadn't had that flight deck visit years ago?

3) It saddens me now that I can't share my enthusiasm with new visitors, and that in the first 130 hours of my 757 life, only once have we had a visitor to the FD - on the ground in EDI - who was a wide-eyed boy of about 10 who claims to want to be a pilot - he was a delight to have up front for 5 minutes, and I hope he goes on to become a pilot.

So ASFKAP, you don't pay my wages, and I think you are a fool - I hope you do not fly on any of my flights - and if you do, perhaps you will be horrified to hear that I actually do fly the aircraft and not just operate the flaps. Now why don't you Flap Operate off you ?

Edited to say: 5 days on (inc 2 min rests) - now got 3 days off and am knackered and had a glass of wine - hope this makes sense to all who care (except ASFKAP, 'coz I don't care what that idiot thinks!)
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 21:42
  #25 (permalink)  
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Iīm sure the kid didnīt fly the aircraft, the autopilot did.

FrequentSLF wrote:
"Pilots have to follow regulations, if they do not comply they will jeopardize safety. Pilot shall not judge if the regulations are appropriate or not, they should just follow them."

Most regulations are there for a good reason but sometimes, not many but for example when the **** hits the fan, pilots may well have to think outside the box to stay safe. It doesnīt always work, to fly by the book.
You canīt write procedures or emergency checklists for every possible situation.
However, I donīt think that applies to this discussion.

Visiting okay but sitting in the pilot seat, no.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 21:46
  #26 (permalink)  
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Well done

Magic post "Enjoy the view". I think the lovely days are over but we still now what it is worth. And I trust that some pax do as well!
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 00:06
  #27 (permalink)  
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Everyone now "flies" airplanes (illegally)

Let me give you an example.
I am a captain and I fly 747-200s... 3 crewmembers... (2 pilots, 1 F/E)
I am an old man. Drink a lot of coffee.
Means my bladder gets full very often. I often go to the toilet.
When I go to the toilet, the F/O receives control of airplane.
If there is a "cockpit rider" flying with us, as I go out, I may tell him to occupy MY SEAT.
The cockpit rider might be another pilot (qualified 747 or other type)
Or might be a flight engineer;
Or might be a aviation technician (mechanic) with the airline.
These people occupy MY SEAT - they DO NOT FLY the airplane.
I rather see them there to help the F/O in case of need (explosive decompression) while I am out.
Get me fired... anyway, retiring in 55 days.

Happy contrails
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 00:07
  #28 (permalink)  
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There really is no respect to the airline crew anymore. Finished the times when passengers used to applause on landing or say thank you to the crew after a nice flight. That makes me sad really. I thought when I was a kid than being an airline pilot meant something to the general public, a well respected position, admired by all. Nowadays when standing outside the flight deck to greet the passengers, I realize that not many are looking at us or even saying hello. They probably see us as 'bus drivers' and unskilled 'button pushers'. (the auto pilot does it all anyway)
Absolutely "Enjoy the View" . I wish we could back to that time where people were actually AMAZED that a human could safely fly a airplane from A to B. Today, as you said, when you look at the passengers it's like they don't care, it's normal to them, as if they were taking the bus. I think it's a disrespect not only to the actual crew flying the plane, but also to all the great aviators who sacrificed their life so that we can safely fly today. I think as pilots we should carry on that image we had of airline pilots that motivated us to become one.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 01:15
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Personally I do not mind if the Pilots let people inside the cockpit (I used to ask to visit before 2001) because I am confident that they are in control.
However if regulations say that people cannot enter the cockpit, I do not understand why many people in this thread try to justify the actions of the Turkish pilot. He broke a rule, and as I said before we might argue if the punishment was to harsh, but we should not justify is actions.
How many silly rules we have to follow on our daily routine?
Regarding that the pilots shall stay all the time inside the cockpit, unless they are provided with they own galley and toilette how they will be able to do it?
And finally, I still appreciate if the pilot have a walk on the cabin, it is a nice way to let understand us that we are not SLFs.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 03:07
  #30 (permalink)  
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Both sides of the coin....

I can see both sides of the coin on this one, although I cant say I agree with the slate on the right hand seat function whatsoever.

August 98 I got married in Poland, on the flight back from Warsaw my best man tipped off one of the stewards and the wife and I got invited to the flight deck (B737) to be congratulated by the captain. Was very interesting and hugely fascinating to me - discussing and learning about the multiple autopilots and the capability of landing in fog (as I had done a month or so before at LHR apparently by autopilot). So whilst I remain pure SLF (still toying idea of a PPL) I learnt more about a subject that fascinated me and I have maintained that interest down the years. Indeed I would love to do the jumpseat for landing sometime but alas with the climate nowadays I doubt that would be an easy thing to achieve. On a side note - it appeared the pilot was allowed to smoke in the cockpit - ash all over the center column - wish he would have let me have had a smoke hehe - I bet thats not allowed now.

On the other side of the coin, should SLF be allowed in the cockpit nowadays, well the rules say no and I do think for it is for good reason. I entirely agree that it should be down to the flight deck to make a judgement call on whether that person poses a threat or not but it also leaves a window of opportunity for those less savoury characters to pounce if not when going into the flight deck but when coming out. My personal view is not that non qualified slf should not go on the flight deck, but it be pre-arranged beforehand so that they fly jumpseat - thus negating the possibility of the unsavoury monitoring and judging movements between the cabin and the fd.

Its a shame in this day and age that the crew cannot give those with an interest a glimpse of what actually does go on at the pointy end as it is inspiring but thats the times we live in nowadays I'm afraid.

There are some things that can be done to allow those such as myself with interest in what goes on up front access to observe what is going on.

1) An AA flight into san diego I took broadcast the flightdeck radio over the entertainment system on a particuler channel. Highly interesting and where I first learnt about the handing over between areas etc.

2) On a finair flight there was a camera on the nosewheel, no doubt so the FD could monitor pushbacks etc, this was broadcast over the entertainment system so I watched both take off and land - well wierd watching the ground come up to the nose wheel and feel the plane touch down whilst the nose is still quite visably clear of the ground. Where I learnt about the flare and grew respect for what the guys on the flight deck must be able to see during this and judgement involved.

3) Not seen this yet but cctv (and I know you guys would hate that) but being able to see what is going on on the flight deck would be great.

Of course I am sure all these systems are/could be controlled from the flight deck so what you dont want ppl to see/hear would not be. Although it could never compare to the visit to the flightdeck I think it is the nearest thing to it that can be granted safely in current times.

So as not to drift from the thread too much, I think in this instance I agree that it should have been allowed within the judgement of the crew to allow the guy onto the flightdeck if deemed safe to do; regulations withstanding, with the proviso that the guy only went so far as the jump seat (if fitted - I dont know if this/all airliners have one) and then allowed back to the cabin post landing. As with the Aeroflot example mentioned previously - whilst there was no intention of anything going wrong in that instance the pressure applied partially disenganged the autopilot leading to a disaster - its best not to have anyone unqualified within reaching distance of any of the controls is my view.


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Old 24th Sep 2008, 03:57
  #31 (permalink)  
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I think it's a great shame that kids can't visit the flight deck. I can understand not letting them sit in the hot seat in flight. My son (6) was thrilled to be able to sit up front a couple of times while the aircraft was at the gate and I certainly enjoyed a visit or two pre 2001. I never did get the chance to jumpseat for a landing, that would have been fun, especially at night.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 04:06
  #32 (permalink)  
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I am sure I will miss the love and the passion of my life but not the Airline.
Yep - it's a huge dichotomy and tugs at you from both sides.

You will miss it - retired almost a year now and I still miss the airplanes and the wonderful people I flew with. But miss the airline business? - you have to be kidding! Good riddance. I'd never advise anyone to go into it today, and that's sad because I ached for it all my young life, did career-day talks to young high school students, opened my cockpit door to everyone, even did film work about the job, it was so great. What a turn the last seven years have been - I am so glad to be retired I can't stop smiling every day. BelArgUSA - you'll love it, you'll welcome it and won't believe what a relief it is to be away from the business this has become. How very sad it all is - not a moment was ever wasted or is today regretted, but man, it's good to be away from it.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 04:12
  #33 (permalink)  
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Without wanting to comment on this particular case, because I am unfamiliar with the rules prevailing in Turkey and because, thankfully the only reporting seems to be media reporting rather than an official accident report, I would reply generally as follows.

In 2001 my son was 12. At that age and at that time it was permissible for me to make an application to allow him to travel with me, on the jumpseat of the airliner I was operating. On a few occaissions he did just that. He is now well on his way to his own professional career. At the end of 2001 the regulations were changed such that it was no longer permissable. He has travelled with me many times since, but of course never on the flightdeck. To that end, I am dissappointed, he is dissappointed, and any perception of common sense is completely irrelevant in this regard.

Even prior to 2001, and certainly since then, unless there are exceptional and compelling reasons to the contrary, nobody but nobody should be sat in either of the pilots seats unless they are required and qualified to be there, or in the extremely rare circumstance when one pilot is incapacitated and the other pilot in command or assuming the command, deems it to be operationally necessary and prudent. Beyond that (other than in the most extreme situation) there is absolutely no reason for anybody else to be seated at the controls and nor should they be.

However ridiculous or unfair the rules either are or seem to be, the assumption of command imposes an obligation of duty and trust to properly and lawfully discharge those obligations at all material times. For the benefit of some non flyers who may think otherwise, the overwhelming majority of pilots do just that at all times. There are occaissions when in the interests of safety or in the seriously considered judgment of the Captain and crew, a course of action is prudent and necessary that would violate an otherwise routine regulation or rule and the provision exists to apply that discretion. However it is exeptional, considered, subject to review and judgement, and not for the purpose of acting contrary simply to satisfy a personal belief or opinion.

Having passengers in the flightdeck (in flight) is subject to the routine discretion of the commander only where it is permitted by law. In all other cases it would be an extreme violation and subject to serious penalties, except in rare situations where it might comply with those overriding safety or emergency requirements, already mentioned. Having anyone not suitably qualified or sanctioned, sat at the controls in flight is inappropriate, unnecessary and unsafe.

Again for the benefit of anyone who might believe otherwise, pilots generally and commanders specifically are selected (amongst other things) for their demonstrated maturity. It doesn't matter how anybody benefitted from a previous history of flight deck visits. The rules have changed and like it or not the requirement to apply them is routinely absolute.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 05:34
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Entrance to Flightdeck

Some of the posts have left me contemplating whether or not I should stay firmly on the ground in all but an aircraft of which I am in control. The days of 'open cockpit door' flying are gone, thanks to the actions of a small number of terrorists. Airlines spend vast amounts of money in making the flightdeck as secure as is possible and, whether it is popular or not, entry to the flight deck is restricted to crew or other authorised persons. Personally, I think many people are now denied an experience which they have previously been able to enjoy and which often gave them an insight to what happens at the sharp end. That said, it is for the benefit of all on board that the restrictions apply. As for those who 'nit pick' about whether or not the FO was PIC during the absence of the Captain, does it matter? The Captain would have had difficulty handling an emergency from the confines of the toilet, so for all practical purposes the FO was the PIC.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 06:07
  #35 (permalink)  
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Very sad to see that the minority in this world affects it for the majority!

I had an absolutely massive grin on my face and felt amazing inside, even when i was allowed to visit a flight-deck after landing, i can only imagine how great i would of felt if the flight crew happily let me go up front at 39,000ft.


back on topic, if THY's SOP's state that no passenger is to visit the flight-deck in-flight then so be it, the crew broke the rules and they new them.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 07:01
  #36 (permalink)  
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I don't wish to comment on this incident beyond to say that when I was 6 or 7 I was allowed to sit on the pilot's lap as he landed a Pan Am 747 at JFK. Seeing the runway lights at night from the air was a beautiful experience for me, and that image is permanently ingrained - to this day I remember that sight. As a child I'd always been fascinated by airplanes (that was my first word incidentally) and I'm extremely grateful to the pilot that allowed me to have that experience. It was the coolest experience of my early childhood.

In an unrelated story, when I was returning to college from Costa Rica in '97 or '98 on an overbooked flight, my dad somehow talked the ticket agent and flight crew into letting me ride in the jump-seat the whole way up to Miami. I suppose he's an extremely persuasive man to have arranged for these two improbable but highly memorable experiences for me.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 08:05
  #37 (permalink)  
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1990, FBU to EWR on SK B767. Wifey, 9 year old daughter and I. Me suffering from FoF at the time in aisle seat, daughter other side of aisle. Had explained to her all I knew about flying as a pax (not much, but hey..), but had forgot one major issue. Noise!
She totally freaked out when we accelerated down the runway and I'm afraid I was not much help. This was noticed by one of the CC seated behind us and she came and asked us if all was OK. She then told to my daughter that she would check with the Captain if she could visit the flight deck later. She could, and she spent the better part of one hour there. We then flew around Canada and USA for four weeks and the only complaint we had from our daughter was lack of turbulence. She totally enjoyed it, she still does and she has been all over the world now. Her two daughters (5 and 6) also love flying and they both love the story of their mother visiting the cockpit of a big jet (and of how scared their grand dad was).
If any of the crew on that flight remember this episode from the summer of 1990, thank you so much!
Too bad my grand children will not be able to have that same experience.

Edited because it is bad form to spell from......form. Now corrected.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 08:24
  #38 (permalink)  
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I fully agree with Avman, many might not admit to getting a chance to sit upfront but it definately was and still is a motivator to many.... now putting it in the media limelight, considering the heavy implications it might have on the crew involved, my personal opinion is it wasn't wise
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 08:26
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What would the response have been if the boy had been wearing a hijab, however keen on flying, I wonder.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 08:57
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A raised eyebrow and directed to apply to become cabin crew, perhaps?
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