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Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm

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Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm

Old 17th Sep 2008, 19:24
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I am sorry if this was reposted, but i can't find it. If it is, then please feel free to delete. Liveleak posted a video which has the following tag:

CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion.



"More CCTV images are being found of the Russian Airline disaster,if you watch the top middle of the screen,you can see the planes landing lights just before impact and then the huge explosion.

The plane crash which claimed 82 passenger lives and 6 crew members came down in Perm in the Ural Mountains."

Here's the link for the video
LiveLeak.com - CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion.

Plus more, from different perspectives:
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Old 17th Sep 2008, 19:30
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Sorry if this a re-post, but i couldn't find it. If it is, feel free to delete it.

CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion

Video description: "More CCTV images are being found of the Russian Airline disaster,if you watch the top middle of the screen,you can see the planes landing lights just before impact and then the huge explosion.

The plane crash which claimed 82 passenger lives and 6 crew members came down in Perm in the Ural Mountains."


VIDEO LINK:

LiveLeak.com - CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion.
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Old 17th Sep 2008, 20:10
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The chairman of technical commission POPPY [A]. Morozov informs, that, in spite of the serious damages of the tape-drive mechanisms of onboard chart recorders (vocal and parametric), is produced the readout of their records. The records of the emergency flight of the aircraft B -737-500 of № VP-BKO of airline Aeroflot- north are located on both chart recorders. In the technical center POPPY the specialists take up the interpretation.
Unfortunatelly quality of air-crash investigations has fallen dramatically during last 10-15 years in Russia.
Which other investigation agency can claim for their daily updates on their websites?
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 18:31
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official from investigation authority

1. recorders are found and read, despite severe damage
2. Based on evaluation of engines (remains thereof), and recorder data, engines were found operating normally till impact.
3. Determined no in-flight breakup.


source http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigat...g-737-500.html
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 19:43
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2. Based on evaluation of engines (remains thereof), and recorder data, engines were found operating normally till impact.
Yet another one making the pundits and news look like idiots who never learn. Fortunately the web has more advanced learning that you can't trust early witness reports.

Don't get me wrong, the witness reports are better than nothing but they don't belong as Headlines
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 03:23
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The next order from the russian aviation authoriries concerning the perm crash has been issued. Particulary it contains (in my free-style translation):

1) Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies
2) Prohibit transition of captains from 3 and more crew member planes to 2 crew member planes without flying experience as a FO on 2 crew member planes
3) Design and apply measures to increase professional pilots training quality and avoid formal approach to evaluation of their skills

I feel deep sorry and respect to the crew and I'm sure they did everything they could to avoid the crash, but such message gives something to think about.
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 06:25
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I found this CCTV video of impact:
.Ru: ,

The quality is not good, but two landing lights can be seen before impact. No signs of airplane on fire in the air. Probably witnesses identified landing lights as a sign of fire.
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 10:26
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The next order from the russian aviation authoriries concerning the perm crash has been issued. Particulary it contains (in my free-style translation):

1) Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies
2) Prohibit transition of captains from 3 and more crew member planes to 2 crew member planes without flying experience as a FO on 2 crew member planes
3) Design and apply measures to increase professional pilots training quality and avoid formal approach to evaluation of their skills

I feel deep sorry and respect to the crew and I'm sure they did everything they could to avoid the crash, but such message gives something to think about.
Yes I would think that they either knew before that accident that russian 3 crew pilots could not handle 2 crew airplanes (which I doubt) or it is a soviet style actionism. "Do something quick to calm the public"

I think it would better to wait for at least a profound analasys of the crash with FDR/CVR data before issuing somthing like that...

Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies
I would have thought that this is the responsibility of the overseeing authority...
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 13:43
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it is a soviet style actionism
Exactly. Same as previous ban on MEL for auto throttle. But it's not "soviet", it's international bureaucratic
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 12:09
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There is a leak with CVR from some source. Its autotran version and link to russian text (may be someone can translate better).

- AEROFLOT 821 DISTANCE 13 APPROACH.
- 821
6 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 YOU APPROACH THE COURSE
- 821
20 SEC
- 821 ACCORDING TO MY DATA YOU CLIMBING, YOUR HEIGHT 900, CONFIRM
- AEROFLOT 821 (PAUSE) I CONFIRM CLIMBING, WE ARE DESCENDING
- AEROFLOT 821 CARRY OUT RIGHT TURN TO COURSE 360, DESCENDING TO 600
- AEROFLOT WE CARRY OUT TURN BY 600, 821
- 821 CALCULATE REPEATED APPROACH, [VEKTOR] TO THE FOURTH TURN
- AEROFLOT 821, IF YOU DO NOT OBJECT (PAUSE) LET US CONTINUE THE APPROACH
- AEROFLOT 821 COURSE 360, DESCEND 600, CALCULATE THE REPEATED APPROACH
- REPEATED APPROACH DESCENDING 600 AEROFLOT 821
- 821 IS EVERYTHING NORMAL IN THE CREW?
- 821 CONFIRM
- 821 UNDERSTOOD, THEN STRICTLY FOLLOW MY COMMAND, CALCULATE [VEKTOR] TO THE FOURTH TURN, RIGHT-HAND TURN TO COURSE 360
- 600 TO COURSE 360 AEROFLOT 821
20 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 WORK WITH APPROACH
...... - F K!!! CRY

Last edited by Kulverstukas; 23rd Sep 2008 at 17:34. Reason: link edited
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 13:51
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Kulverstukas, the link does not work
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 16:24
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It needs to be changed to:

LINK HERE
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 17:44
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TwoOneFour, I dunno, but it correspond to interview with FC which leaked earlier (next day after accident).
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 18:16
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Although not official, the person posting this is generally considered reliable/reputable. And he says "I got it from a source which is reliable enough".

Edited translation, what I changed is lower case, [my comments in square brackets].

- AEROFLOT 821 DISTANCE 13 [km] APPROACH.
- 821
6 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 YOU APPROACH THE COURSE
- 821
20 SEC
- 821 ACCORDING TO MY DATA YOU CLIMBING, [your] altitude is now 900, CONFIRM
- AEROFLOT 821 (PAUSE) I CONFIRM CLIMBING, WE ARE DESCENDING [as in "we are proceeding to descend now"]
- AEROFLOT 821 turn right heading 360, descend to 600
- AEROFLOT [we are] turning, 600, 821
- 821 expect missed approach, and vectors to the fourth turn
- AEROFLOT 821, IF YOU DO NOT OBJECT (PAUSE) LET US CONTINUE THE APPROACH
- AEROFLOT 821 heading 360, DESCEND 600, expect missed approach
- missed approach, DESCENDING 600 AEROFLOT 821
- 821 IS EVERYTHING NORMAL IN THE CREW?
- 821 CONFIRM
- 821 UNDERSTOOD, THEN STRICTLY FOLLOW MY COMMAND, expect vectors TO THE FOURTH TURN, turn right heading 360
- 600 TO COURSE 360 AEROFLOT 821
20 SEC
- Aeroflot 821 Contact approach
...... - F K!!! [scream]


Although now posting it, I really have doubts this post is useful.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 19:15
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AlexGG

Although now posting it, I really have doubts this post is useful
I puposely didn't quote your translation in case you want to delete it later.

It certainly gives pause in thought to what was happening. However, to me there are too many questions and with such limited experience on my part I would have to defer to type rated pilots to decipher what may have been going on to match the words.
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 21:13
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From the article here: - Boeing -

I will translate only the most relevant portions:
The crew of Boeing, according to some experts, was in a critical situation, after the aircraft, which was lead by controller, after safely performing four turns in the "box" and taking a course for landing, suddenly climbed sharply. This maneuver, the cause of which has not yet been determined, apparently, was a complete surprise to the controller of Perm airport Irek Bikbov, who called these actions inadequate for the pilots themselves. What follows from decoding of talks among the pilots, they learned that the machine is going up from the radio dispatcher. The climb itself (rather than descent) was not particularly dangerous, especially since the controller suggested that Boeing pilots turn and repeat the approach. However, they were unable to comply with his instructions for yet undetermined reasons.

It is likely that the incident simply confused them and they lost spatial orientation. In any case, this is evident in their [pilots]conversation - after accepting controllers instructions for second approach, pilots began to vigorously argue about turn direction - left or right. The captain, who insisted on the left turn, won this dispute and the aircraft turned away from the landing "boxe" on the right, and towards residential areas of Perm. However, the crew was unable to complete this maneuver: the plane banked too far to the left and fell into a rapid spiral dive.
While the article does not specifically says so, it appears as though they had access to cockpit voice recording.

They go on to speculate about differences in artificial horizon output between Russian and foreign planes that may have contributed to this, as well as relative inexperience of pilots with this type of plane (captain had a few hundred hours as an FO on Boeing, prior to that FO on Tu-134, etc).

Who knows what that means, but Kommersant is generally a fairly respectable publication.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 06:49
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Russian news sites claim that the crash was caused by "human factor". Investigators concluded that the plane crashed due to the crew error. Pilots lost orientation and were unable to determine climbing (they discovered climbing only after ATC had told them. how is it possible?! ).

That's what news tell. However I haven't seen any official report yet.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 07:11
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I would doubt it very much, that it was 'just' human error, although it is possible.
IF everything was working fine on the flightdeck, then there is little reason for disorientation and loss of situational awareness. Have they really checked and ruled out all other possibilities in such a short time? What about a failed horizon or the like?
Never flown a 37, but as there are thousands around and they dont fall out of the skies like appels in autumn, there might very well be more to it than just the easy way out, pilot error.
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Old 24th Sep 2008, 08:54
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...... - F K!!! [scream]


Just a comment regarding this last exclamation from the leaked transcript. This is not just a curse and it is impossible to translate it in English (that is why it is translated as "F...K"). But this curse normally means something like a fatal end. So, eventually the crew has realized that they had lost it. Very sad
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Old 25th Sep 2008, 12:19
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That is exactly the way it is. In CIS (for local crews) the ATCO issues the orders, truly. Think what you may but don't fight it, ever. That's the procedure.
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