Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm
acquisition of habits according to conclusion from the complex aircraft attitudes with the straight indication of the gyrohorizons, established on the foreign and contemporary domestic air vessels. This indication differs from the indication, used on the types of the air vessels, mastered by crew members earlier (Tu-134, in terms of AN 2).
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Link to the video
link to the video reconstruction:
Âåñòè.Ru: ÌÀÊ: êàòàñòðîôà "Áîèíãà" â Ïåðìè ïðîèçîøëà èç-çà îøèáêè ýêèïàæà
Âåñòè.Ru: ÌÀÊ: êàòàñòðîôà "Áîèíãà" â Ïåðìè ïðîèçîøëà èç-çà îøèáêè ýêèïàæà
Link to the video
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link to the video reconstruction:
Âåñòè.Ru: ÌÀÊ: êàòàñòðîôà "Áîèíãà" â Ïåðìè ïðîèçîøëà èç-çà îøèáêè ýêèïàæà
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
link to the video reconstruction:
Âåñòè.Ru: ÌÀÊ: êàòàñòðîôà "Áîèíãà" â Ïåðìè ïðîèçîøëà èç-çà îøèáêè ýêèïàæà
What is the video suppose to be showing? I can't relate it to the accident.
For one thing the video appears to show a very steep pitch into the ground while my memory seems to remember that the plane was nearly flat as it went down the railroad tracks for some distance.
Is this an official video from the accident investigation commision?
This is a translation from an article today at avia.ru:
IF the 240 hours mentioned in the article are the captain´s total hours on a 737, that´s not very much, is it?
IAC summarized the investigation of the crash in Perm
February 10, 2009
/ AVIA.RU /
February 10, AVIA.RU - Today, the Interstate Aviation Committee has finished its work the Commission investigate the accident aircraft Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO a / k «Aeroflot-Nord», which took place September 14, 2008 in the vicinity of the airport of Perm.
Investigation of the crash was carried out in full accordance with the Rules of the investigation of aviation accidents and incidents involving civil aircraft in the Russian Federation (PRAPI), approved by RF Government Resolution № 609 of 18 June 1998. The composition of the technical committee comprising representatives Rosaviatsii, Rostransnadzora, Rosaeronavigatsia, Roshydromet. On the basis of Annex 13 to the Convention of the International Civil Aviation in the investigation attended by official representatives of the USA (state - a developer and manufacturer of aircraft), France (the state and the developer of the aircraft engines) and the UK, which represents the interests of the State Registration of the Armed Forces - Bermuda.
The Commission found that the proximate cause of the crash was the loss of spatial orientation of the crew, especially the commander of the aircraft. This led to the coup and the plane through the left wing. After this maneuver, without enough altitude to land the plane successfully became impossible. The main factor that played a role in the loss of orientation - lack of training of crew.
Of the 1200 hours in the CF, only 240 were on the Boeing-737. Others - were carried out on board Tu-134 and AN-2. These AC installed display radically different from the one that stands on the new generation aircraft and to foreign liners, the Commission noted. As a result, when the crew took to ship only on instruments, as well as piloting a ship going in the dark and in very low visibility due to cloud cover, bring the plane with a straight horizon indication commander, who at the final stage of flight actively piloting, not managed.
Not least the role played in the loss of orientation and other factors. In particular, the Commission drew attention to deficiencies in the technical operation of the aircraft. Moreover, the results of forensic examinations carried out in the public health special type «Perm Regional Forensic Bureau - Medicine», established that the mode of work and rest period prior to the FAC in the accident, he has contributed to the accumulation of fatigue and was not consistent with the current normative documents. Others dealt with in the work of the commission did not find his version of the verification.
From the findings of IAC briefed journalists the technical committee chairman Alexei Morozov, who stressed that the commission does not determine the degree of responsibility of certain individuals, this right is enshrined in the prosecutor's office, which is also connected to this investigation.
Final report on the results of the investigation (by MAC) with the findings, conclusions and recommendations of the safety signed by all members of the commission without the comments and dissenting opinions. Conclusion on the causes of aviation accidents approved by the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.
February 10, 2009
/ AVIA.RU /
February 10, AVIA.RU - Today, the Interstate Aviation Committee has finished its work the Commission investigate the accident aircraft Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO a / k «Aeroflot-Nord», which took place September 14, 2008 in the vicinity of the airport of Perm.
Investigation of the crash was carried out in full accordance with the Rules of the investigation of aviation accidents and incidents involving civil aircraft in the Russian Federation (PRAPI), approved by RF Government Resolution № 609 of 18 June 1998. The composition of the technical committee comprising representatives Rosaviatsii, Rostransnadzora, Rosaeronavigatsia, Roshydromet. On the basis of Annex 13 to the Convention of the International Civil Aviation in the investigation attended by official representatives of the USA (state - a developer and manufacturer of aircraft), France (the state and the developer of the aircraft engines) and the UK, which represents the interests of the State Registration of the Armed Forces - Bermuda.
The Commission found that the proximate cause of the crash was the loss of spatial orientation of the crew, especially the commander of the aircraft. This led to the coup and the plane through the left wing. After this maneuver, without enough altitude to land the plane successfully became impossible. The main factor that played a role in the loss of orientation - lack of training of crew.
Of the 1200 hours in the CF, only 240 were on the Boeing-737. Others - were carried out on board Tu-134 and AN-2. These AC installed display radically different from the one that stands on the new generation aircraft and to foreign liners, the Commission noted. As a result, when the crew took to ship only on instruments, as well as piloting a ship going in the dark and in very low visibility due to cloud cover, bring the plane with a straight horizon indication commander, who at the final stage of flight actively piloting, not managed.
Not least the role played in the loss of orientation and other factors. In particular, the Commission drew attention to deficiencies in the technical operation of the aircraft. Moreover, the results of forensic examinations carried out in the public health special type «Perm Regional Forensic Bureau - Medicine», established that the mode of work and rest period prior to the FAC in the accident, he has contributed to the accumulation of fatigue and was not consistent with the current normative documents. Others dealt with in the work of the commission did not find his version of the verification.
From the findings of IAC briefed journalists the technical committee chairman Alexei Morozov, who stressed that the commission does not determine the degree of responsibility of certain individuals, this right is enshrined in the prosecutor's office, which is also connected to this investigation.
Final report on the results of the investigation (by MAC) with the findings, conclusions and recommendations of the safety signed by all members of the commission without the comments and dissenting opinions. Conclusion on the causes of aviation accidents approved by the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.
The report on the Flash Airlines 737 crash out of Sharm El Sheikh in 2004 blames crew disorientation. It mentioned the Commander's previous experience on MiG 21s and Russian style AHs may have caused him to revert to type under pressure.
Just in passing, because it's in the news as the 50th anniversary of the death of Buddy Holly in an accident in the USA in 1959, the pilot of that aircaft, who had limited instrument flying experience, also had most prior experience on types where the Artificial Horizon worked a different way (basically in reverse) to the Beech being flown that evening. Sounds a similar issue.
Is that a request for the link to the Flash airlines 737 crash? If so, I can't find it now.
There were two investigations. As nearly all of the passengers were French, it was investiogated by the French BEA backed up by the NTSB, as well as the Egyptian Ministry of Civil Aviation. The two reports were published concurrently and were different. The French report concentrated on human factors, the Egyptian report concentrated on the technical aspects and was leaning towards a control malfunction.
The French/NTSB report said that it was likely that once the PF (the commander) had lost spatial orientation due to a slow scan, he then rolled the aircraft to about 150 degrees of bank and about 30 degrees nose down, the attitude in which the aircraft impacted the sea. The investigation concluded that is was probable that once disorientated, the PF reverted to type and tried to make tha AI look like what he would expect to see if he was flying level on a Russian style AI. Fatige was also mentioned as a factor. The report was also critical of Flash Airlines and the Egyptian regulation.
The Egyptian report said that the probable cause was an autopilot failure exacerbated by an aileron circuit jam and that had found evidence in the wreckage to support their view.
The two authorities disagreed heavily, and still do it appears. About three years ago, both reports were available on line to read. However, now the link to the French report doen't work and you can only now view the Egyptian factual report which concentrates on the technical aspects with no comment on probable cause, interestingly through a BEA link.
The Egyptian report can be read here http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2004/su...-f040103pa.pdf It's over a thousand pages and 37mb.
The French/NTSB report could be read here http://www.bea-fr.org/francais/actua...o20060325.html but it's been removed.
Interesting.
There were two investigations. As nearly all of the passengers were French, it was investiogated by the French BEA backed up by the NTSB, as well as the Egyptian Ministry of Civil Aviation. The two reports were published concurrently and were different. The French report concentrated on human factors, the Egyptian report concentrated on the technical aspects and was leaning towards a control malfunction.
The French/NTSB report said that it was likely that once the PF (the commander) had lost spatial orientation due to a slow scan, he then rolled the aircraft to about 150 degrees of bank and about 30 degrees nose down, the attitude in which the aircraft impacted the sea. The investigation concluded that is was probable that once disorientated, the PF reverted to type and tried to make tha AI look like what he would expect to see if he was flying level on a Russian style AI. Fatige was also mentioned as a factor. The report was also critical of Flash Airlines and the Egyptian regulation.
The Egyptian report said that the probable cause was an autopilot failure exacerbated by an aileron circuit jam and that had found evidence in the wreckage to support their view.
The two authorities disagreed heavily, and still do it appears. About three years ago, both reports were available on line to read. However, now the link to the French report doen't work and you can only now view the Egyptian factual report which concentrates on the technical aspects with no comment on probable cause, interestingly through a BEA link.
The Egyptian report can be read here http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2004/su...-f040103pa.pdf It's over a thousand pages and 37mb.
The French/NTSB report could be read here http://www.bea-fr.org/francais/actua...o20060325.html but it's been removed.
Interesting.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 13th Feb 2009 at 00:54. Reason: add links
Quote: "Before some other "Westerners" jump onto the bandwagon and assumes that all Russian pilots are vodka swilling gung-ho types - most are (almost without exception) utterly professional in all respects. Its a sad day when false stereotypes are bandied around willy-nilly."
Maybe, but "most" isn't good enough. It needs to be "all". I think the below is your "exception". And Aeroflot's response seems to indicate the culture within Aeroflot is less than completely professional.
From the London Daily Telegraph 3rd Feb 2009. By Adrian Bloomfield, Moscow correspondant:
The extraordinary claim followed a mutiny by over 100 passengers at Moscow airport. They demanded that the flight crew of a New York-bound Boeing 767 be replaced after the pilot had appeared on the aircraft's tannoy apparently slurring and stumbling over his words.
Captain Alexander Cheplevsky, who had allegedly celebrated his birthday the previous day according to one Russian newspaper, seemed barely coherent and repeated the words "duration of the flight" three times, passengers were quoted as saying.
But when they raised their concerns with the cabin crew, they were told to "stop making trouble" or get off the aircraft, which was preparing for take off from Moscow's Sheremetevo airport on Dec 28.
As anxiety mounted and passengers refused to take their seats, Aeroflot representatives boarded the aircraft with a message of reassurance.
"It's not such a big deal if the pilot is drunk," one representative said, according to the English-language Moscow Times, which had a reporter on board.
"Really, all he has to do is press a button and the plane flies itself. The worst that could happen is he'll trip over something in the cockpit."
Thirty minutes into the impasse, Capt Cheplevsky emerged from the cockpit. Passengers alleged that he was red-faced, had bloodshot eyes and appeared unsteady on his feet.
Attempting to intercede in the dispute, he made passengers an offer, saying: "I'll sit here quietly in a corner. We have three more pilots. I won't even touch the controls, I promise."
With airline officials refusing to budge, matters were taken in hand by Ksenia Sobchak, a Russian celebrity and It-girl whose father was mentor to Vladimir Putin, the prime minister.
From her seat in first class, she telephoned Aeroflot, who appeared more amenable than they had to ordinary passengers, the Moscow Times reported.
After three hours, a new crew was brought aboard and the aircraft flew to New York.
Maybe, but "most" isn't good enough. It needs to be "all". I think the below is your "exception". And Aeroflot's response seems to indicate the culture within Aeroflot is less than completely professional.
From the London Daily Telegraph 3rd Feb 2009. By Adrian Bloomfield, Moscow correspondant:
The extraordinary claim followed a mutiny by over 100 passengers at Moscow airport. They demanded that the flight crew of a New York-bound Boeing 767 be replaced after the pilot had appeared on the aircraft's tannoy apparently slurring and stumbling over his words.
Captain Alexander Cheplevsky, who had allegedly celebrated his birthday the previous day according to one Russian newspaper, seemed barely coherent and repeated the words "duration of the flight" three times, passengers were quoted as saying.
But when they raised their concerns with the cabin crew, they were told to "stop making trouble" or get off the aircraft, which was preparing for take off from Moscow's Sheremetevo airport on Dec 28.
As anxiety mounted and passengers refused to take their seats, Aeroflot representatives boarded the aircraft with a message of reassurance.
"It's not such a big deal if the pilot is drunk," one representative said, according to the English-language Moscow Times, which had a reporter on board.
"Really, all he has to do is press a button and the plane flies itself. The worst that could happen is he'll trip over something in the cockpit."
Thirty minutes into the impasse, Capt Cheplevsky emerged from the cockpit. Passengers alleged that he was red-faced, had bloodshot eyes and appeared unsteady on his feet.
Attempting to intercede in the dispute, he made passengers an offer, saying: "I'll sit here quietly in a corner. We have three more pilots. I won't even touch the controls, I promise."
With airline officials refusing to budge, matters were taken in hand by Ksenia Sobchak, a Russian celebrity and It-girl whose father was mentor to Vladimir Putin, the prime minister.
From her seat in first class, she telephoned Aeroflot, who appeared more amenable than they had to ordinary passengers, the Moscow Times reported.
After three hours, a new crew was brought aboard and the aircraft flew to New York.
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Alcohol concern.
Just terrible,
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The official report shows that an alcohol was found in the muscle’s tissues of the body of Capt. Truth is that it’s impossible at this stage to determine was he drunk or no. They even can’t say how mach it was. Only blood test could lead to the med expert’s conclusion about his condition during a performance of flight. Some of the close friends of him insisted at the day of crash that he was not dinking person at all for the years. I read it on the russian forum by myself.
sorry about all of it
Cheers
AF
--------
The official report shows that an alcohol was found in the muscle’s tissues of the body of Capt. Truth is that it’s impossible at this stage to determine was he drunk or no. They even can’t say how mach it was. Only blood test could lead to the med expert’s conclusion about his condition during a performance of flight. Some of the close friends of him insisted at the day of crash that he was not dinking person at all for the years. I read it on the russian forum by myself.
sorry about all of it
Cheers
AF
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It was very annoying to read several last posts. Do you really believe, folks, to that muckraking journalism? I asked one pathoanatomist and he told me that it's impossible to determine whether there be alcoholic intoxication of that captain, and traces of alcohol which have been found could be the spirits from the front galley which is situated just behind the cockpit. Please just imagine that mess they analyzed. After about 300 knots impact and fire that followed not a lot of plane debris left, and what about human bodies?
Concerning Moscow — New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. «Dear» Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes.
Concerning Moscow — New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. «Dear» Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes.
It was very annoying to read several last posts. Do you really believe, folks, to that muckraking journalism? I asked one pathoanatomist and he told me that it's impossible to determine whether there be alcoholic intoxication of that captain, and traces of alcohol which have been found could be the spirits from the front galley which is situated just behind the cockpit. Please just imagine that mess they analyzed. After about 300 knots impact and fire that followed not a lot of plane debris left, and what about human bodies?
Concerning Moscow — New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. «Dear» Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes
Concerning Moscow — New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. «Dear» Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes
You'll soon learn about Pprune - why let the facts get in the way of a good story. Stereotyping our Russian colleagues is de-rigeur amongst many - some who really should know far better. With greatest respect.
Flash
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I found this video in youtube about throttle problems on the same aircraft 2 days before accident:
YouTube - VP-BKO cockpit 2 days before crash
According to MAK press release, problems with throttle control increased crew's workload on approach.
YouTube - VP-BKO cockpit 2 days before crash
According to MAK press release, problems with throttle control increased crew's workload on approach.
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Communications between the tower and the Perm flight. All in russian, of course. You may get a general idea just listening to the voices, though - in particular compare beginning and the end.
?????? ??????? - ?????????? ????????? ??????
?????? ??????? - ?????????? ????????? ??????
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The link of the transcript from ATC controls appeared:
Êàòàñòðîôà ðåéñà Àýðîôëîò-821. Ðàäèîîáìåí îò ýøåëîíà è äî ñàìîãî êîíöà.
For those who understand Russian everything should be clear...
Of course, some excuses like being tired or having some problems with the health can be also theoretically possible. But the truth looks much less pleasant.
The captain of the Aeroflot 821 is obviously drunk...
And it is clear to ATC, that\s why he is talking with him like with a baby...
No words
Êàòàñòðîôà ðåéñà Àýðîôëîò-821. Ðàäèîîáìåí îò ýøåëîíà è äî ñàìîãî êîíöà.
For those who understand Russian everything should be clear...
Of course, some excuses like being tired or having some problems with the health can be also theoretically possible. But the truth looks much less pleasant.
The captain of the Aeroflot 821 is obviously drunk...
And it is clear to ATC, that\s why he is talking with him like with a baby...
No words
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Definitely there was something wrong with the Captain. If he was drunk, wouldn't it be detected during those quick medical checks they do in Russia before every first flight? Or maybe he got drunk on board?
In the MAK release, it's said that the Captain was PF. Why the hell he would be flying the plane and doing communications as well?
Anyway, really sad...
In the MAK release, it's said that the Captain was PF. Why the hell he would be flying the plane and doing communications as well?
Anyway, really sad...
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to the experts in speech recognition and who not even need to know the language of speaking:
IMHO I would say that this is much better not to make a conclusion just on the voice or manner of pronunciation solely. That always wrong. This tape well confirms that the approach was not managed properly, the PM had short time to respond to ATC probably by the reason of trying to handle with some abnormal situation and the phraseology was not standard but one used by a pilot experienced in other that the transport category flying. The PF screaming at the end is a terrible thing. That just confirms that upon recognition of aircraft attitude at the moment falling out of the clouds he was conscious and scared. Those who are experts in the human drank behaviour could confirm that drunk people can’t react as to be scared by something but rather as behave brave and neglect. I’m confused with this kind of situation happened over there. Sad think for every one who doing flying…
IMHO I would say that this is much better not to make a conclusion just on the voice or manner of pronunciation solely. That always wrong. This tape well confirms that the approach was not managed properly, the PM had short time to respond to ATC probably by the reason of trying to handle with some abnormal situation and the phraseology was not standard but one used by a pilot experienced in other that the transport category flying. The PF screaming at the end is a terrible thing. That just confirms that upon recognition of aircraft attitude at the moment falling out of the clouds he was conscious and scared. Those who are experts in the human drank behaviour could confirm that drunk people can’t react as to be scared by something but rather as behave brave and neglect. I’m confused with this kind of situation happened over there. Sad think for every one who doing flying…
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well they don't say he was drunk,the report says that medical experts found some alcohol presence in tissues,they even can't determine quantity and if it was actually alcohol or maybe he was taking some medicals.