Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm
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That is exactly the way it is. In CIS (for local crews) the ATCO issues the orders, truly. Think what you may but don't fight it, ever. That's the procedure.
You mean there is a different set of rules for non-locals?
Only half a speed-brake
Yes, I do. The system in place requires ATC to command airborne ships, to crews ATC is their superior, military-wise. For those not registered under CIS authoritiy, ATC will provide service, just as we are used to according to ICAO regs.
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Jet pilot?s 14 seconds dilemma before fatal crash - Scotsman.com News
This article supports what you are saying captplaystation
This article supports what you are saying captplaystation
Russia aviation authority suspends 737 flights--AP
There is an Associated Press story out:
NYTimes posting of AP story
In case the link does not work, the nub is that a spokesman for the Federal Agency of Air Transport announced a suspension of flights on aircraft "similar to the one that crashed" pending additional simulator training for pilots.
NYTimes posting of AP story
In case the link does not work, the nub is that a spokesman for the Federal Agency of Air Transport announced a suspension of flights on aircraft "similar to the one that crashed" pending additional simulator training for pilots.
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AOL version:- Russia suspends Boeing 737 flights - World - AOL News
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So, it seems the difference between the "Western" and the "Russian" ADI presentation has finally come to roost....
Glad to see the Russian authorities have almost immediately drawn the right conclusion: more training and more information needed.
I hope to see also, that the same authorities will rapidly be able narrow down the problem to pilots having converted relatively recently from Russian-type aircraft to "Western"-type aircraft, and that would mean NOT only the 737.
CJ
Glad to see the Russian authorities have almost immediately drawn the right conclusion: more training and more information needed.
I hope to see also, that the same authorities will rapidly be able narrow down the problem to pilots having converted relatively recently from Russian-type aircraft to "Western"-type aircraft, and that would mean NOT only the 737.
CJ
Only half a speed-brake
* The commander remained unilaterally firm in perceptions which suggested a left turn direction to him.
* When interpreting the attitude display instruments under stress, the commander resorted to a reaction pattern (heuristics) which he had learned earlier.
* The commander was not systematically acquainted by Crossair with the specific features of western systems and cockpit procedures.
* When interpreting the attitude display instruments under stress, the commander resorted to a reaction pattern (heuristics) which he had learned earlier.
* The commander was not systematically acquainted by Crossair with the specific features of western systems and cockpit procedures.
Only half a speed-brake
I always thought that there were versions of -500 with electronic or steam driven engine instrument panel; but EADI and ND were only CRT.
A quick search of airliners.net photos shows both digital and mechanical layouts for -500s. I was asking in case this is why the Russian authority have a simulator training issue, as if the crash crew trained on a different config and the aircraft/pilot grounding' reported earlier implies they mean 'until pilots simulator-trained on identical cockpit config'?
...... - F… K!!! [scream]
Just a comment regarding this last exclamation from the leaked transcript. This is not just a curse and it is impossible to translate it in English (that is why it is translated as "F...K"). But this curse normally means something like a “fatal end”.
I just looked at the original Text, and I agree wholly. The Word is impossible to translate. In five years in Russian Speaking Countries I never heard this expression uttered once - although of course everybody knows it. Its certainly a lot worse than F..K in its "emotive" value believe me.
And the same expression used by the stalled TU-154 crew back in '01.
Just a comment regarding this last exclamation from the leaked transcript. This is not just a curse and it is impossible to translate it in English (that is why it is translated as "F...K"). But this curse normally means something like a “fatal end”.
I just looked at the original Text, and I agree wholly. The Word is impossible to translate. In five years in Russian Speaking Countries I never heard this expression uttered once - although of course everybody knows it. Its certainly a lot worse than F..K in its "emotive" value believe me.
And the same expression used by the stalled TU-154 crew back in '01.
Last edited by flash8; 2nd Oct 2008 at 23:05.
This from the AP:
Does anybody have a link to the "final report", preferably in English?
Pilot error blamed for fatal Aeroflot crash
33 minutes ago
MOSCOW (AP) — Russian officials say alcohol and pilot confusion over the instrument panel on a Boeing passenger jet were responsible for a crash last year that killed 88 people.
The Boeing 737-500, operated by an Aeroflot subsidiary, crashed Sept. 14 while preparing to land in the city of Perm — about 1,200 kilometers (750 miles) east of Moscow.
Investigators also said in a final report released Tuesday that the subsidiary, Aeroflot-Nord, had given the pilots insufficient training.
Officials earlier said that the pliots misread an indicator on the instrument panel, causing the pilot to disregard instructions from air traffic controllers and lose control of the jet.
The commission said an unspecified amount of alcohol was detected in the pilot's body.
33 minutes ago
MOSCOW (AP) — Russian officials say alcohol and pilot confusion over the instrument panel on a Boeing passenger jet were responsible for a crash last year that killed 88 people.
The Boeing 737-500, operated by an Aeroflot subsidiary, crashed Sept. 14 while preparing to land in the city of Perm — about 1,200 kilometers (750 miles) east of Moscow.
Investigators also said in a final report released Tuesday that the subsidiary, Aeroflot-Nord, had given the pilots insufficient training.
Officials earlier said that the pliots misread an indicator on the instrument panel, causing the pilot to disregard instructions from air traffic controllers and lose control of the jet.
The commission said an unspecified amount of alcohol was detected in the pilot's body.
Does anybody have a link to the "final report", preferably in English?
Last edited by CaptainSandL; 10th Feb 2009 at 17:53.
MAK Press Release (scroll to bottom)
Translation by systranet
BR,
aerolearner
Translation by systranet
The technical commission of intergovermental aviation committee, into composition of which enter the official representatives Of [rosaviatsii], [Rostransnadzora], [Rosaeronavigatsii] and Russian Federal Service on Hydrometeorology and Environmental Control, completed works on the investigation of the crash of aircraft Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO of [a]/[k] “the Aeroflot- north”, that occurred on September 14, 2008 in the airport zone of Perm'. Investigation was conducted in complete agreement with the rules of the investigation of aviation incidents and incidents with the civil air vessels in the Russian Federation ([PRAPI]), affirmed by the decision of the government RF of № 609 dated June 18, 1998. On the basis appendices 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation in the investigation participated the official representatives of the USA (state- developer and the producer of aircraft), France (state- developer and the producer of engines) and Great Britain, which was of interests of state- registration [VS] - [Bermud].
In the process of investigation the complete complex of works on the estimation of flying and technical documentation according to the operation of aircraft and training of crew, study of all preserved elements of aircraft and engines, interpretation and data analysis of onboard and ground environment of objective control is carried out. The mathematical flight simulation of aircraft and work of engines is carried out, with the participation of test pilots and acting airplane pilots the independent flying estimation is carried out.
Final report on the results of investigation with the conclusions, the conclusion and the recommendations regarding the flight safety is signed by all members of commission without the observations and the special opinions. Conclusion about the reasons for aviation incident is coordinated in the working order with the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.
On the fact-finding of the commission:
“The direct cause for aviation incident was the loss of dimensional orientation by crew, first of all BY [KVS], which accomplished active aircraft handling in the final stage of flight, which led to the revolution of the aircraft through the left wing, its introduction into an intensive decrease and collision with the earth. The loss of dimensional orientation occurred in flight at night, in the clouds, with the off by autopilot and the autothrottle. The factor, which contributed to the loss of dimensional orientation and incapacity to its restoration, was the insufficient level of the professional training of crew in the part of the technology of piloting air vessel, control of resources (CRM) and acquisition of habits according to conclusion from the complex aircraft attitudes with the straight indication of the gyrohorizons, established on the foreign and contemporary domestic air vessels. This indication differs from the indication, used on the types of the air vessels, mastered by crew members earlier (Tu-134, in terms of AN 2).
The reason indicated was determined on the basis the analysis of the records of onboard and ground environment of objective control, study of the preserved elements of aircraft and engines, results of the simulation of emergency flight, results of the independent examination, executed by pilots by the testers State of NII (Scientific Research Institute) GA, Leah [im]. M.M. Gromov and by airplane pilots, and also entire complex of works, carried out with the participation of the specialists of Russia, the USA, Great Britain, France and [Bermud] in the course of investigation.
The system reason for this aviation incident, revealed including according to the results of the checkings, carried out By [rostransnadzorom] and By [rosaviatsiey] after aviation incident, was the insufficient level of the organization of the flying and technical operation of the aircraft Of boeing 737 in the airline.
Deficiencies in the technical operation of aircraft led to the execution for a long time of flights with the presence “of fork " ( 1 ) in the position RUD of more than maximum permissible by management on the technical operation of aircraft and to nonfulfillment by the operating personnel of actions on the elimination of this defect prescribed by management on the technical operation. The presence “of fork” in the position RUD increased working load on the crew in the process of fulfilling the landing approach.
According to the results of the forensic medical examination, executed in the office of state of special type public health “Permian provincial bureau of forensic medical examination”, is established the fact of the presence of ethyl alcohol in the organism [KVS] before death. The regime of labor and rest [KVS] in the period, which precedes aviation incident, contributed to the accumulation in it of fatigue and did not correspond to the acting normative documents”.
In accordance with the International standards final report after transfer will be directed to the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France. After obtaining and examining the commentaries from the states, which participated in the investigation, in accordance with the requirements ICAO and by Russian legislation final report will be published in the routine.
Final report is presented to government commission. All materials for adopting the necessary measures are directed to the aviation authorities of Russia.
1 ) by term “fork” is understood different adjustment of right and the port engines, when different thrust realizes and vice versa with the identical position of engine-control levers, with the identical thrust the position of engine-control levers is different.
In the process of investigation the complete complex of works on the estimation of flying and technical documentation according to the operation of aircraft and training of crew, study of all preserved elements of aircraft and engines, interpretation and data analysis of onboard and ground environment of objective control is carried out. The mathematical flight simulation of aircraft and work of engines is carried out, with the participation of test pilots and acting airplane pilots the independent flying estimation is carried out.
Final report on the results of investigation with the conclusions, the conclusion and the recommendations regarding the flight safety is signed by all members of commission without the observations and the special opinions. Conclusion about the reasons for aviation incident is coordinated in the working order with the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.
On the fact-finding of the commission:
“The direct cause for aviation incident was the loss of dimensional orientation by crew, first of all BY [KVS], which accomplished active aircraft handling in the final stage of flight, which led to the revolution of the aircraft through the left wing, its introduction into an intensive decrease and collision with the earth. The loss of dimensional orientation occurred in flight at night, in the clouds, with the off by autopilot and the autothrottle. The factor, which contributed to the loss of dimensional orientation and incapacity to its restoration, was the insufficient level of the professional training of crew in the part of the technology of piloting air vessel, control of resources (CRM) and acquisition of habits according to conclusion from the complex aircraft attitudes with the straight indication of the gyrohorizons, established on the foreign and contemporary domestic air vessels. This indication differs from the indication, used on the types of the air vessels, mastered by crew members earlier (Tu-134, in terms of AN 2).
The reason indicated was determined on the basis the analysis of the records of onboard and ground environment of objective control, study of the preserved elements of aircraft and engines, results of the simulation of emergency flight, results of the independent examination, executed by pilots by the testers State of NII (Scientific Research Institute) GA, Leah [im]. M.M. Gromov and by airplane pilots, and also entire complex of works, carried out with the participation of the specialists of Russia, the USA, Great Britain, France and [Bermud] in the course of investigation.
The system reason for this aviation incident, revealed including according to the results of the checkings, carried out By [rostransnadzorom] and By [rosaviatsiey] after aviation incident, was the insufficient level of the organization of the flying and technical operation of the aircraft Of boeing 737 in the airline.
Deficiencies in the technical operation of aircraft led to the execution for a long time of flights with the presence “of fork " ( 1 ) in the position RUD of more than maximum permissible by management on the technical operation of aircraft and to nonfulfillment by the operating personnel of actions on the elimination of this defect prescribed by management on the technical operation. The presence “of fork” in the position RUD increased working load on the crew in the process of fulfilling the landing approach.
According to the results of the forensic medical examination, executed in the office of state of special type public health “Permian provincial bureau of forensic medical examination”, is established the fact of the presence of ethyl alcohol in the organism [KVS] before death. The regime of labor and rest [KVS] in the period, which precedes aviation incident, contributed to the accumulation in it of fatigue and did not correspond to the acting normative documents”.
In accordance with the International standards final report after transfer will be directed to the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France. After obtaining and examining the commentaries from the states, which participated in the investigation, in accordance with the requirements ICAO and by Russian legislation final report will be published in the routine.
Final report is presented to government commission. All materials for adopting the necessary measures are directed to the aviation authorities of Russia.
1 ) by term “fork” is understood different adjustment of right and the port engines, when different thrust realizes and vice versa with the identical position of engine-control levers, with the identical thrust the position of engine-control levers is different.
aerolearner
Last edited by aerolearner; 11th Feb 2009 at 17:03.
Before some other "Westerners" jump onto the bandwagon and assumes that all Russian pilots are vodka swilling gung-ho types - most are (almost without exception) utterly professional in all respects. Its a sad day when false stereotypes are bandied around willy-nilly.
Those that discredit our Russian colleagues have obviously never had the pleasure to operate with them. 'nuff said.
Those that discredit our Russian colleagues have obviously never had the pleasure to operate with them. 'nuff said.
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Perm 737 crash
Some good may come out of this sad crash.
I notice that already 7 pages are filled with comments on this crash.
As a rule, I notice, that " Eastern Block " crashes receive far less attention then those occuring in " The West "
Keep it up; crashes in Russia are as important to track as those in the West as there are lessons to be learned for the whole aviation world.
Having spent half my life in hotels and meeting many Russian aircrews in the process, I take exception to any biased statments that Russian airmen are alcoholics, I found them levelheaded, pleasant and well trained/professionals.
I notice that already 7 pages are filled with comments on this crash.
As a rule, I notice, that " Eastern Block " crashes receive far less attention then those occuring in " The West "
Keep it up; crashes in Russia are as important to track as those in the West as there are lessons to be learned for the whole aviation world.
Having spent half my life in hotels and meeting many Russian aircrews in the process, I take exception to any biased statments that Russian airmen are alcoholics, I found them levelheaded, pleasant and well trained/professionals.