Spanair accident at Madrid
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I'm not fully going to dismiss the transcript shown on that TV program, but unless the copilot happened to be speaking Argentinian (rather than Castillian Spanish, as it "should've been"), those are very likely NOT the exact words on the recording a spanish pilot would use (or rather, copilot).
So, while I strongly suspect it's bull they have the cabin sound recordings, here is my most accurate translation (not all makes full sense) of the "transcript".
Copilot: The left one - Engine fire - Cutting fuel (Please note that engine is transcribed as being said in English, while in all likelyhood a spanish pilot would have referred to it in Spanish using the word "motor" instead)
Pilot: OK - Got it - OK - Got it - Rotate same (way) (or anyway, ambigous) - (Same as before, the word "rotate" is either latin spanish, intead of castillian, or english, which wouldn't be the kind of word a Spanish pilot would likely ever use).
Cop: Possitive ascend - Oh God.
Pil: I'm losing it - More pedal (rudder?) - Give me more - You (you, give me more?)
Sound (explosion?)
Pil: (Swears)
Cop: Give (it) to me
Noise. Crash ends.
Please note that, at the very least, whoever made the "transcript" wasn't a professional at all, with some expressions etc (such as "crash ends") and other subtle semantics details that look HIGHLY amaterouish.
Again, not diminishing its validity. But if you ask me my honest opinion, I would bet serious money it is a TOTAL BULL PRANK. At very least the copilot would've had to be of Argentinian origin, which hasn't been mentioned, and the moron transcribing the tape, a drop out college freshman. But anything is possible, of course.
Reportly (but again, probably wrong), the airport recording that finally made its way to the judge in charge of the investigation is only about 7 seconds long. That's probably incorrect and it's longer, but anyway, we can only comment on what we are told by the press or by officials speaking live on TV.
So, while I strongly suspect it's bull they have the cabin sound recordings, here is my most accurate translation (not all makes full sense) of the "transcript".
Copilot: The left one - Engine fire - Cutting fuel (Please note that engine is transcribed as being said in English, while in all likelyhood a spanish pilot would have referred to it in Spanish using the word "motor" instead)
Pilot: OK - Got it - OK - Got it - Rotate same (way) (or anyway, ambigous) - (Same as before, the word "rotate" is either latin spanish, intead of castillian, or english, which wouldn't be the kind of word a Spanish pilot would likely ever use).
Cop: Possitive ascend - Oh God.
Pil: I'm losing it - More pedal (rudder?) - Give me more - You (you, give me more?)
Sound (explosion?)
Pil: (Swears)
Cop: Give (it) to me
Noise. Crash ends.
Please note that, at the very least, whoever made the "transcript" wasn't a professional at all, with some expressions etc (such as "crash ends") and other subtle semantics details that look HIGHLY amaterouish.
Again, not diminishing its validity. But if you ask me my honest opinion, I would bet serious money it is a TOTAL BULL PRANK. At very least the copilot would've had to be of Argentinian origin, which hasn't been mentioned, and the moron transcribing the tape, a drop out college freshman. But anything is possible, of course.
Reportly (but again, probably wrong), the airport recording that finally made its way to the judge in charge of the investigation is only about 7 seconds long. That's probably incorrect and it's longer, but anyway, we can only comment on what we are told by the press or by officials speaking live on TV.
Last edited by justme69; 25th Aug 2008 at 19:26.
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Hi,
So .. fire in a engine and lost of control ..... case closed ....
The rest is for the forensic engineers..
That was one of the most quick investigation I had seen !
Cheers.
So .. fire in a engine and lost of control ..... case closed ....
The rest is for the forensic engineers..
That was one of the most quick investigation I had seen !
Cheers.
From www.airdisaster.com:
[quote]Here you have 4 of the many reports being discussed within aviation forums in Spain.
My personal view regarding the reverse issue. Only 3 alternatives.
- Pilot commanded it out to stop the a/c (why Engine 1 reverse is closed?).
- Uncommanded deployment, dramatically reducing thrust and throwing it to the right side of runway.
- Maybe itīs just the crash that deployed it (however itīs a quite symmetrical deployment of both shells). Iīll try to upload the picture.
Picture was provided by the man in Report 4.
************************************
<FONT face="Times New Roman">REPORT 1ffice
ffice" />
[quote]Here you have 4 of the many reports being discussed within aviation forums in Spain.
My personal view regarding the reverse issue. Only 3 alternatives.
- Pilot commanded it out to stop the a/c (why Engine 1 reverse is closed?).
- Uncommanded deployment, dramatically reducing thrust and throwing it to the right side of runway.
- Maybe itīs just the crash that deployed it (however itīs a quite symmetrical deployment of both shells). Iīll try to upload the picture.
Picture was provided by the man in Report 4.
************************************
<FONT face="Times New Roman">REPORT 1ffice
ffice" />
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Found this on Google interesting reading Salon.com Technology | Ask the pilot
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if this cvr transcript is accurate, my theory regarding the rat probe etc would not fit. if so, I am sorry, but perhaps we have all learned something about the DC9/80.
NOW, if the left engine fire warning was part of this, why did the pilots cut the throttle so close to the ground?
we climb to 1000'agl and then fight the fire. there is still thrust being produced by the engine.
wondering why there wasn't enough rudder authority?
it is very interesting and I hope we get clarification from spanish authorities soon.
NOW, if the left engine fire warning was part of this, why did the pilots cut the throttle so close to the ground?
we climb to 1000'agl and then fight the fire. there is still thrust being produced by the engine.
wondering why there wasn't enough rudder authority?
it is very interesting and I hope we get clarification from spanish authorities soon.
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Please, note that although the claimed transcript of the last moments of the cvr is likely a TOTAL BULL PRANK, this is the direct link to the ARGENTINIAN TV program reporting it.
www.tn.com.ar/2008/08/21/index.html?id=937314
It has been reported that, after obtaining the necessary judiciary permissions, the recovered voice and data recording boxes were being shipped by courier to an specialized company in England to have the recordings extracted. The data recorder is damaged so the information would have to be recovered and likely will take a long time, due to the care it has to be exercised to try to retrieve as much as possible w/o further damage.
The CVR seems to be in good shape and authorities were confident the recordings could be extracted without problems.
www.tn.com.ar/2008/08/21/index.html?id=937314
It has been reported that, after obtaining the necessary judiciary permissions, the recovered voice and data recording boxes were being shipped by courier to an specialized company in England to have the recordings extracted. The data recorder is damaged so the information would have to be recovered and likely will take a long time, due to the care it has to be exercised to try to retrieve as much as possible w/o further damage.
The CVR seems to be in good shape and authorities were confident the recordings could be extracted without problems.
Last edited by justme69; 25th Aug 2008 at 19:58.
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Again on CVR "transcript" that I wasn't able to pull while it was just there.
Yes it's very suspicious: - has surfaced very early - nobody else has it - TN doesn't cite it anymore and likely will not defend its authenticity. Understandably the judge is investigating that aspect too.
We'll know, but if it is pure invention as suggested, whoever made it is a really low form of life and should be prosecuted.
Yes it's very suspicious: - has surfaced very early - nobody else has it - TN doesn't cite it anymore and likely will not defend its authenticity. Understandably the judge is investigating that aspect too.
We'll know, but if it is pure invention as suggested, whoever made it is a really low form of life and should be prosecuted.
Previous actual CVRs decoded with an engine fire were annunciated with a bell, followed by a female voice "fire left engine" and were not annunciated by the crew.
So who is kidding who
So who is kidding who
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Only time you take immediate action to cut an engine between V1 and 400' is thrust reverser unlocked with buffet/yaw.For this reason,I am sure the video is a hoax.Professional pilots arent trained like this.
Sevenstrokeroll,
I think the TOCW was disabled;just a question of why.Can you set the parking brake in the MD80 when airborne or arm the T.O position of the autobrakes on approach?
Sevenstrokeroll,
I think the TOCW was disabled;just a question of why.Can you set the parking brake in the MD80 when airborne or arm the T.O position of the autobrakes on approach?
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I think we can end speculation about the CVR- it is evidently fake as the real recording will barely have been downloaded and will be carefully guarded, presumably at Farnborough. It just would not get out. Some kids got themselves a nice little earner there out of some gullible news organisation.
There has been determined speculation that a compressor stall is the cause because of high temperature, tailwind and heavy. I have done higher temperature, stronger tailwind and heavier takeoffs from MAD. Not a problem. Again the focus falls on the wrong place. Rather than be the cause of the problem, the root is what may have caused that surging in the first place (if it happened at all), not the fact that it occurred.
It increasingly sounds like the aeroplane was not flyable. How so? Scenarios are:
Large error in take-off performance calculation with speeds much too low (unlikely)
Erroneous power setting for take-off (unlikely)
Wrong flap configuration for take-off
Technical failure beyond the critical time- wheel shredding, fire or engine failure- unlikely as this should have been handled.
There has been enormous focus on the returning to stand to fix a minor error as if this is the cause! What is needed is wider vision. This can only come from experienced people and not from people desperate to make their mark and stake their claim to the final solution! Like this work of art from a true idiot!:
There has been determined speculation that a compressor stall is the cause because of high temperature, tailwind and heavy. I have done higher temperature, stronger tailwind and heavier takeoffs from MAD. Not a problem. Again the focus falls on the wrong place. Rather than be the cause of the problem, the root is what may have caused that surging in the first place (if it happened at all), not the fact that it occurred.
It increasingly sounds like the aeroplane was not flyable. How so? Scenarios are:
Large error in take-off performance calculation with speeds much too low (unlikely)
Erroneous power setting for take-off (unlikely)
Wrong flap configuration for take-off
Technical failure beyond the critical time- wheel shredding, fire or engine failure- unlikely as this should have been handled.
There has been enormous focus on the returning to stand to fix a minor error as if this is the cause! What is needed is wider vision. This can only come from experienced people and not from people desperate to make their mark and stake their claim to the final solution! Like this work of art from a true idiot!:
I strongly beleive that they tried an RTO becuase the landing gear failed to retract. The gear will not retract if the plane arrived in this condition!
If the plane indeed was in airborne mode, remember my words. This is an item in the MD-80's Emergency Abnormal Checklist.
If the plane indeed was in airborne mode, remember my words. This is an item in the MD-80's Emergency Abnormal Checklist.
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Ministry of Fomento in Spain, advised by the accident comission, has released an official statement negating that the presumed "leaked" transcript from the pilots conversation in the cabin shown in the Argentinian news program is real.
General Attorney was notified in case the prank could be a criminal offense such as obstruction of justice, as the accident is part of a judiciary investigation under secrecy (standard procedure at the beginning of an investigation where some documents or other evidence could "dissapear" or be destroyed or concealed. Usually a few days later the investigation becomes "public" instead of "secret").
General Attorney was notified in case the prank could be a criminal offense such as obstruction of justice, as the accident is part of a judiciary investigation under secrecy (standard procedure at the beginning of an investigation where some documents or other evidence could "dissapear" or be destroyed or concealed. Usually a few days later the investigation becomes "public" instead of "secret").
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Originally Posted by rainboe
It increasingly sounds like the aeroplane was not flyable. How so? Scenarios are:
Large error in take-off performance calculation with speeds much too low (unlikely)
Erroneous power setting for take-off (unlikely)
Wrong flap configuration for take-off
Technical failure beyond the critical time- wheel shredding, fire or engine failure- unlikely as this should have been handled.
There has been enormous focus on the returning to stand to fix a minor error as if this is the cause!
Large error in take-off performance calculation with speeds much too low (unlikely)
Erroneous power setting for take-off (unlikely)
Wrong flap configuration for take-off
Technical failure beyond the critical time- wheel shredding, fire or engine failure- unlikely as this should have been handled.
There has been enormous focus on the returning to stand to fix a minor error as if this is the cause!
Many times we have seen that the end trap consists of little things along the path. Swiss cheese.
....There has been enormous focus on the returning to stand to fix a minor error as if this is the cause! What is needed is wider vision. This can only come from experienced people ...
The reason that the crap rises to the surface is because the more experienced are waiting for something like real facts to emerge. We can find faults in others pet theories but that is quite boring after awhile.
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(standard procedure at the beginning of an investigation where some documents or other evidence could "dissapear" or be destroyed or concealed. Usually a few days later the investigation becomes "public" instead of "secret")
Is this true? I am supposed to start feeling more confident about this investigation when?
Is this true? I am supposed to start feeling more confident about this investigation when?
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As we all care deeply for the victims and their families, the good news today is that one of the children survivors (6yo, craneal fracture and other face injuries) was the first to be discharged today from the hospital to return home.
He crawled by himself out of the plane through a hole in the fuselage, unbuckling his own safety belt, after checking on her sister (16, not a survivor) sat by his side and thinking she was asleep.
Often the judge, when he fears some big company or someone may try to hide evidence, would call for the investigation to become secret for a (short) while, not letting anyone out of the judiciary system know what/who he is investigating, so he could "show up by surprise" so information would less likely be revealed (leaked) to the the press in advance aiding those that the judge is thinking about pressing charges against conceal information or run away or whatever.
It is quite normal to have a big case with too many pieces of evidence and too many people involved or large number of victims to be clasified as "investigation under secrecy" for a while, until the risk of the (slow) proceeding of the investigation aiding those that (potentially) would be charged, dissapears. Then days (weeks, months?) later, the whole account of the investigation becomes public, detailing the steps the judge took.
Spain's judiciary system is so slow, it borderlines "unfit for purpose", as most investigations etc greatly benefit from being carried fast and efficiently, rather than incredibly slow and well ... not so efficiently at all.
This investigation is, of course, parallel and separate from the National Civil Aviation authorities as well as authorities' from other countries invited (the US has formally been invited to be part of the investigation as manufacturers of the plane as has the EEC), and is geared towards finding criminal behaviours or responsabilities on any of the parties involved (acts of terrorism, etc), but it's the investigation with the highest rank of authority, so it's the first one any evidence etc needs to be presented to. After the judge declares that no criminal neglicency, intent or behaviours can be observed and classifies the case as an accident, then they no longer need to be consulted/asked for permission/etc to continue technical and safety investigations.
Judiciary system's workers routinely leak information to the politicians and even the press on the proceedings before the final conclusions are even put on paper by the judge. Politicians, trying to save the day and knowing the public doesn't want to wait 2 years w/o any news, leak this information as well when they feel it's safe (certain) enough to do so.
He crawled by himself out of the plane through a hole in the fuselage, unbuckling his own safety belt, after checking on her sister (16, not a survivor) sat by his side and thinking she was asleep.
Often the judge, when he fears some big company or someone may try to hide evidence, would call for the investigation to become secret for a (short) while, not letting anyone out of the judiciary system know what/who he is investigating, so he could "show up by surprise" so information would less likely be revealed (leaked) to the the press in advance aiding those that the judge is thinking about pressing charges against conceal information or run away or whatever.
It is quite normal to have a big case with too many pieces of evidence and too many people involved or large number of victims to be clasified as "investigation under secrecy" for a while, until the risk of the (slow) proceeding of the investigation aiding those that (potentially) would be charged, dissapears. Then days (weeks, months?) later, the whole account of the investigation becomes public, detailing the steps the judge took.
Spain's judiciary system is so slow, it borderlines "unfit for purpose", as most investigations etc greatly benefit from being carried fast and efficiently, rather than incredibly slow and well ... not so efficiently at all.
This investigation is, of course, parallel and separate from the National Civil Aviation authorities as well as authorities' from other countries invited (the US has formally been invited to be part of the investigation as manufacturers of the plane as has the EEC), and is geared towards finding criminal behaviours or responsabilities on any of the parties involved (acts of terrorism, etc), but it's the investigation with the highest rank of authority, so it's the first one any evidence etc needs to be presented to. After the judge declares that no criminal neglicency, intent or behaviours can be observed and classifies the case as an accident, then they no longer need to be consulted/asked for permission/etc to continue technical and safety investigations.
Judiciary system's workers routinely leak information to the politicians and even the press on the proceedings before the final conclusions are even put on paper by the judge. Politicians, trying to save the day and knowing the public doesn't want to wait 2 years w/o any news, leak this information as well when they feel it's safe (certain) enough to do so.
Last edited by justme69; 25th Aug 2008 at 22:52.
This investigation is, of course, parallel and separate from the National Civil Aviation authorities as well as authorities from other countries invited ...and is geared towards finding criminal behaviours on any of the parties involved, but it's the investigation with the highest rank of authority, so it's the first one any evidence etc needs to be presented to.
Anything else, don't hold your breath for at least a year or two.
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Rainboe,
funny how your post is just a recap of the same blabber you've made the past pages. Hence probably 2,000+ posts. You say absolutely nothing new yet thrash people for trying to understand.
I simply hate dwellers like you, who spend their time asking away, then blast those who post simply to enlighten ourselves. Because in ALL crash theads it is all it is. Yo ufinish your post with a set of questions asked since the SECOND PAGE !? Is the small apartment going to your head? Maybe the weather? I don't know.
I made that statement, together with 10 or 20 MD80 facts which haven't been mentioned before. PJ2 said he never heard of this nonsense, I mentioned that it could be a factor in my post. So I went in to my manuals to refresh my memory
As you can see it refers only to being stuck in ground mode. I corrected myself and the thread continued. Here comes Mr. retard, barging in open doors and arrogantly asking questions posted 5 days ago
So please, stop insulting, let your ego back in the cage and read all posts.
Someone asked about the CAWS system being inoperative. If the aircraft had failed in the airborne mode you'll get the problem of the RAT probe being heated on the ground. The other one being that the CAWS stops giving TO warnings.
I don't have an opinion about the CVR script, it may not be the official ne, but maybe the essense of the CVR was given by an insider. One thing I know is that an engine failure alone "should" not be the cause of such troubles in getting the plane airborne. There must be something else. But at the expense of healthy debate I will refrain to avoid forum member closely affiliated with the Lord himself from passing judgement to the "idiots"
Xander
funny how your post is just a recap of the same blabber you've made the past pages. Hence probably 2,000+ posts. You say absolutely nothing new yet thrash people for trying to understand.
I simply hate dwellers like you, who spend their time asking away, then blast those who post simply to enlighten ourselves. Because in ALL crash theads it is all it is. Yo ufinish your post with a set of questions asked since the SECOND PAGE !? Is the small apartment going to your head? Maybe the weather? I don't know.
I made that statement, together with 10 or 20 MD80 facts which haven't been mentioned before. PJ2 said he never heard of this nonsense, I mentioned that it could be a factor in my post. So I went in to my manuals to refresh my memory
As you can see it refers only to being stuck in ground mode. I corrected myself and the thread continued. Here comes Mr. retard, barging in open doors and arrogantly asking questions posted 5 days ago
So please, stop insulting, let your ego back in the cage and read all posts.
Someone asked about the CAWS system being inoperative. If the aircraft had failed in the airborne mode you'll get the problem of the RAT probe being heated on the ground. The other one being that the CAWS stops giving TO warnings.
I don't have an opinion about the CVR script, it may not be the official ne, but maybe the essense of the CVR was given by an insider. One thing I know is that an engine failure alone "should" not be the cause of such troubles in getting the plane airborne. There must be something else. But at the expense of healthy debate I will refrain to avoid forum member closely affiliated with the Lord himself from passing judgement to the "idiots"
Xander