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Spanair accident at Madrid

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Spanair accident at Madrid

Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:29
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Wileydog, yes I know the more airspeed you have in this situation the better, This is the avenue I was thinking about, say a a huge engine failure and failure around V2 which would give you zero thrust.
More speed gives you more control but it also gives you more mass that has to be stopped in an RTO.

And we have not determined what type of engine failure it was. A jet engine can continue producing a lot of thrust while it guts itself and with an engine fire, it is still producing thrust, just that fire is somewhere it is not normally found. And it does not appear to be a catastrophic seizure because no one has said anything about the engine being detached from the airplane.

The question I ponder is what caused the airplane to depart the runway and not continue along the runway. Often a high speed reject will have a runway over-run but this was a runway *departure*.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:29
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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I have this SAD feeling that this Accident could be the end for Spanair.
Given the already extremely precarious financial state of this airline then it may well be much less able to withstand the sudden downturn in passenger bookings and numbers that will inevitably immediately follow on from an event of this kind. Also a very high percentage of routes operated by Spanair also have competitor services from Iberia (or Click Air on its behalf) and Air Europa thus the ability for passengers to rebook on competitor airlines for domestic flights is higher than on internal domestic flights in many other EU countries. Also many of these competitor flights are not flying anywhere near full (except during these few summer holiday season weeks) but might suddenly become so if no one wants to book with Spanair.

Much will depend on whether the fault for this crash lies with the airline's pilots or its maintenance standards or instead relates to some other hidden catastrophic design failure in the aircraft or its engines, unrelated to poor maintenance or poor piloting, that could have hit any MD82.

If the crash is the result of pilot error or substandard maintenance or other negligence then it will at a minimum be essential to rebrand it as something else. In theory both Iberia and Air Europa could expand their operational activities if Spanair goes in to liquidation to cover most of the routes and acquire a substantial proportion of the existing aircraft to fly them under their colours.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:33
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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There is a perception in the community (justified or otherwise) that the MD-8x series is unsafe, just like there was with the DC-10.
What community?

I flew the -80 for a while and I don't fly unsafe airplanes.

The -10 did have some problems but before you classify it as an unsafe airplane, you may want to run that by a lot of the 'freight dogs' (said with utmost respect for those guys) who haul freight worldwide in -10s.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:35
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Notwithstanding the tragedy that occurred in Madrid, my sympathies are with Danny, PPRuNe Towers and Duck who are moderating floods of errant tosh on this thread.

Respect to you, buddies!
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:41
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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perception in the community that the md80 is a bad plane...BULLSHIT!

the DC9/MD80/MD90 series is one of the finest, strongest planes built. It is a joy to fly if you are a good stick and rudder pilot. It has few computers and the pilot is directly in charge of just about everything.

it has two flaws...bad piloting and bad maintenance.

The DC9 was called the last "pilot's airliner".

If you point at the md80 crashes by the third world airlines, see the above.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:47
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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MD80 doors

sorry for any confusion, I did not mean to imply that the MD80 over wing exits have slides...one slides down the partially extended flaps to the ground.

two forward main cabin doors, one galley service door near the left engine and the tailcone exit have slides.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:54
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]perception in the community that the md80 is a bad plane...BULLSHIT!

the DC9/MD80/MD90 series is one of the finest, strongest planes built. It is a joy to fly if you are a good stick and rudder pilot. It has few computers and the pilot is directly in charge of just about everything.

it has two flaws...bad piloting and bad maintenance.

The DC9 was called the last "pilot's airliner".

If you point at the md80 crashes by the third world airlines, see the above.
/QUOTE]

I concur with the above. Current on the A340, flown Boeing, Lockheed, Hawker Siddley and the one I would gladly go back to is the DC9/MD83. Engine failures can be a challenge as the rudder input is rather heavy and can be mishandled.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:57
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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sorry if this was already mentioned already i have read all this thread i may have missed it - i will delete if this is the case.

its been mentioned that the left engine failed and also reverse thrust was engaged. if this is the case could it account for why the plane veered to the right, despite that being the side with forward thrust?
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:04
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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I have read much about the MD-8X series and what was mentioned again and again by people claiming to be pilots of this plane is that during the early moments of climbout (high AOA), and particularly at high TOW, the plane is very sensitive to aileron input.....and that rudder should be used instead to keep wings level until airspeed increases. Does that sound anywhere near correct?
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:06
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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This graphic purports to show where it ended up relative to the runways:
Gráficos en ELPAÍS.com

You need to PULSE PARA CONTINUAR.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:12
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Do You All recall this incident:

of all the plane crashes, this is one that comes to mind with regard to spanair today:

On 6 September 1985, Midwest Express Flight 105 crashed upon takeoff from Milwaukee. As of 2008 this is Midwest's first and only fatal accident. The accident happened when a Douglas DC-9 of the airline crashed while taking off from Milwaukee, bound for Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport. According to NTSB reports, the crash was caused by improper pilot reaction when the plane's right engine failed due to stress corrosion cracking. The improper flight control inputs caused an uncommanded roll and accelerated stall. The 31 people on board died.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:13
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Probably, but with braking and rudder and nose wheel steering reverse thrust on right side only wouldn't cause an aircraft to go off the runway unless hydraulic problems occured. Having landed with only R thrust reverser several times it is a non event.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:13
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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My condolences for our collegues. I know many pilots flying on Spanair, some of them good friends. Spanair is going lo lay off 1.200 people within the next weeks trying to get rid of all the old MD fleet (105 pilots), closing 7 main bases including his main base at Palma de mallorca. The company is not in its best moment but the crews receive really good training.

Normally one accident is the concurrence of several mistakes, not only one. We all pilots know that one engine failure after V1 guarantees a safe take off (Thomson 757 engine failure on rotation video). Even at Madrid you have plenty of runway, aircraft was not all that heavy and weather was ok.

Now let´s wait until the investigation ends, unfortunately we learn of others mistakes, let´s learn about this one so it doesn´t happen to any of us who are day by day earning our way of life.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:14
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Spanair have enough experience to operate the MD80's safely.

After all they have over 25 of them, And they have had no problems before yesterday.

Spanair have had enough MD80's over the years.

I would should think the problem was in the engine.

But we shall find out in due course.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:14
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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BBC reporting the aircraft did become airborne and the pilot then attempted to land on the remaining runway.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:16
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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DC9/MD80.
Rugged simple reliable.
Had EFTO in the rotate on MD-83 (duck ingestion), and it was no problem-much easier than the sim.

Like NG_Kapt I have flown NGs, L-1011, L-188, and the McDiesel series hold their own.
So lets wait for the experts to finish their investigations before we rush to judgement.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:33
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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In my opinon, the aircraft was fire but not of the engine. Is posible a tire explosion of landing gear. The airplane when was taxing, returned to parking because have problems with Outisde and RAM sensor, but is´nt problem for GO, the difference is what are use the tables and calculate the effective EPR.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:39
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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I would like to know the status of the tires

I would like to know the status of the tires...if one had ruptured, the pieces could have been ingested into the engine. still not enough to bring it down under most conditions.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:43
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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I have read much about the MD-8X series and what was mentioned again and again by people claiming to be pilots of this plane is that during the early moments of climbout (high AOA), and particularly at high TOW, the plane is very sensitive to aileron input.....and that rudder should be used instead to keep wings level until airspeed increases. Does that sound anywhere near correct?
Rudder is the primary control to keep the aircraft from yawing and it is yaw that is the primary problem in an engine failure. You can actually perform a V1 cut and NEVER use ailerons and keep the wings level and the nose going straight.
IF however, the pilot begins using lots of aileron, it can and often does compound the control challenge.

You have to make yourself make the correct input and not relax and reduce that input. Doing so begins a dance that can result in losing control. To get an appreciation for the control surfaces, look at the rudder. It is the largest control surface on the airplane and with proper rudder input, a V1 and V2 failure can be dealt with.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 01:45
  #240 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
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curi;
Is posible a tire explosion of landing gear. The airplane when was taxing, returned to parking because have problems with Outisde and RAM sensor, but is´nt problem for GO, the difference is what are use the tables and calculate the effective EPR.
The tire doesn't explode but yes, it is possible the tire shed some tread and it is possible that it went into the engine. This has happened before on airplanes with engines at the rear and it has caused engine damage.

The RAM sensor usually does not have anything to do with the engines. I am not familiar with the MD82 MEL but likely it would be a "GO" item. The engines have their own sensors as you know.

sevenstrokeroll;

The tires are immediately suspect in this model; not so much the 72'. I agree with you - it has happened before but without result except for loss of engine power. I am familiar with the DC9 accident at Toronto in June, 1978 in which an overrun resulted from a rejected takeoff right at V1 - the right tire shed the re-cap, (it remained inflated), caused the engine to falter and also put the right gear unsafe light on (tore out the switch & shorted the warning). The aircraft overran into the same gulley Air France 258 overran into but unlike AF, the '9 didn't burn, thankfully - it was at MGTOW, 108,000lbs.

wileydog2:
You can actually perform a V1 cut and NEVER use ailerons and keep the wings level and the nose going straight.
Good explanation.

In fact, that's how it was taught in the DC9 sim, esp. for someone who was having a bit of trouble keeping his/her hands off the control wheel and using a lot of aileron, which one never, ever should do for the reasons you give. At rotation, with the 15deg or so attitude established, the engine would be cut and the candidate would have to put his/her hands down beside them and control yaw using rudder alone. It was a great teaching technique and an even better confidence builder. Works for all aircraft, even the 'bus ;-)

PJ2

Last edited by PJ2; 21st Aug 2008 at 01:58.
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