Spanair accident at Madrid
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After the accident, Swedish news agencies have already expressed their fears about the impact this accident might have on SAS Group's reputation for safety. Obviously, on their failing economy as well. Last week, when SAS presented its interim report, Spanair appeared as the biggest economic problem and a heavy financial burden for them. The situation can deteriorate even further now.
I don't think how old an aircraft is matters that much.
I know there are quite a few KC-135s, 747 Classics, Lear 20s and 30s, DC-9s (older than any MD-8x or 9x), B-52's...all the way back to DC-3s. All these aircraft fly safely every day, amounting to thousands of trouble-free hours. What pilot would take off an aircraft of which he questions the airworthiness?
When the aircraft go through heavy checks, they come out ready to fly for a long time, stripped clean of corrosion, wiring intact, etc. In fact, I would rather take an old DC-8, overbuilt to a fault, through a thunderstorm before I would an A320 built last year to the exacting engineering specs of today's CAD/CAM.
I know there are quite a few KC-135s, 747 Classics, Lear 20s and 30s, DC-9s (older than any MD-8x or 9x), B-52's...all the way back to DC-3s. All these aircraft fly safely every day, amounting to thousands of trouble-free hours. What pilot would take off an aircraft of which he questions the airworthiness?
When the aircraft go through heavy checks, they come out ready to fly for a long time, stripped clean of corrosion, wiring intact, etc. In fact, I would rather take an old DC-8, overbuilt to a fault, through a thunderstorm before I would an A320 built last year to the exacting engineering specs of today's CAD/CAM.
Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features.
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CNN+ here in Madrid are just at to playing there computer generated reenactment of what they are reporting happened.The reenactment showed aircraft taking off on 36L climbing somewhat, explosion then veers off to the right. Hits the ground and continues on a few hundred metres at about 45 degrees from the runway centreline and comes to a rest.
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ontimeexceptACARS
QUOTE
"I shot the frame itself in Madrid last year, before its repaint. It looked in good nick, no oil leaks or loads of brake dust around the gear, no Fokker 100 or CRJ stylee soot marks around the tail. May have just had a paint or a wash, though."
UNQUOTE
I stand agast at some of the comments I read on these topics. When on earth did an oil leak (and you know it's a leak and not an overspill during last top up do you?), excessive brake dust (what do you think happens to the brake pad segments when the brakes are applied??) and sooty marks around an engine's exhausts signify a badly maintained airframe??
Some I work are filthy - but are the safest things I've been near - they just desperatly need a good wash (and would get one if not for the tight flying schedule).
Please; conjecture is the greatest enemy of the truth. Lets keep it both professional and informed here if we can.
An Engineer.
QUOTE
"I shot the frame itself in Madrid last year, before its repaint. It looked in good nick, no oil leaks or loads of brake dust around the gear, no Fokker 100 or CRJ stylee soot marks around the tail. May have just had a paint or a wash, though."
UNQUOTE
I stand agast at some of the comments I read on these topics. When on earth did an oil leak (and you know it's a leak and not an overspill during last top up do you?), excessive brake dust (what do you think happens to the brake pad segments when the brakes are applied??) and sooty marks around an engine's exhausts signify a badly maintained airframe??
Some I work are filthy - but are the safest things I've been near - they just desperatly need a good wash (and would get one if not for the tight flying schedule).
Please; conjecture is the greatest enemy of the truth. Lets keep it both professional and informed here if we can.
An Engineer.
Last edited by virginpaul; 20th Aug 2008 at 21:16.
What a load of C - - P
From Post No. 166:
QUOTE: Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features.
UNQUOTE:
Like many here I've seen more than my fair share of idiotic, generalised, sweeping statements on this net. But this one probably deserves an award for downright stupidity, never mind "Crass of the Year"!!!!
Obviously this poster has never heard of "Grandfather's Axe - more's the pity, but perhaps I can use it on his person if I ever meet him.
(Yes, this net is called "Rumours" - but it's also called "Professional"! The above comment was IMHO everything else other than "professional).
Rant over
QUOTE: Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features.
UNQUOTE:
Like many here I've seen more than my fair share of idiotic, generalised, sweeping statements on this net. But this one probably deserves an award for downright stupidity, never mind "Crass of the Year"!!!!
Obviously this poster has never heard of "Grandfather's Axe - more's the pity, but perhaps I can use it on his person if I ever meet him.
(Yes, this net is called "Rumours" - but it's also called "Professional"! The above comment was IMHO everything else other than "professional).
Rant over
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Smug
From what I have heard Spanair have a bit of a cowboy reputation in Spain.
Was on a TRI course in Madrid last month and in the words of an ex-Iberia pilot "Spanair are an accident waiting to happen."
His views were mainly based on the company culture rather than anything specific. Sorry to see his words come true in such short time, and I can only hope that new ICAO legislation coming into effect 2009 regarding Quality and Safety systems continues to improve aviation in the future.
Was on a TRI course in Madrid last month and in the words of an ex-Iberia pilot "Spanair are an accident waiting to happen."
His views were mainly based on the company culture rather than anything specific. Sorry to see his words come true in such short time, and I can only hope that new ICAO legislation coming into effect 2009 regarding Quality and Safety systems continues to improve aviation in the future.
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peter_we on old aircraft
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but the sweeping statement that older aircraft crash more often is not sustainable IMHO.
Older, well-maintained aircraft are no less safe than new models, given comparable avionics and other systems.
It may be the case that globally older aircraft crash more, but I would throw the argument into the ring that when one looks at age in conjunction with operator and country of operation, one will find that a significant number of old machines fly in countries where aviation oversight and maintenance standards are lower than in the rest of the world..
As to the events in question, I wonder why the machine veered off the runway with what seems like useable runway ahead.. surely one-engine take-off training would drill it into the pilots to keep it on the straight and narrow first of all..
Older, well-maintained aircraft are no less safe than new models, given comparable avionics and other systems.
It may be the case that globally older aircraft crash more, but I would throw the argument into the ring that when one looks at age in conjunction with operator and country of operation, one will find that a significant number of old machines fly in countries where aviation oversight and maintenance standards are lower than in the rest of the world..
As to the events in question, I wonder why the machine veered off the runway with what seems like useable runway ahead.. surely one-engine take-off training would drill it into the pilots to keep it on the straight and narrow first of all..
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No, it ranks as third deadliest, if the reported numbers are valid...
1. Inex Adria Aviopromet, 1981, 180 fatalities.
2. West Caribbean Airways, 2005, 160 fatalities.
3. Spanair, 2008, 140+ fatalities.
1. Inex Adria Aviopromet, 1981, 180 fatalities.
2. West Caribbean Airways, 2005, 160 fatalities.
3. Spanair, 2008, 140+ fatalities.
Third would be Northwest 255, Detroit, 1987, 154 fatalities on board, 2 on the ground. Cause of accident was failure of the crew to set flaps/slats for takeoff, and a few other holes in the swiss cheese that lined up to get them there.
That said, I was quite taken aback by this headline:
"Accident History Of MD-80 Series: The MD-82 plane that crashed in Madrid is part of an aircraft series that has a history blighted with accidents. "
from Sky News
I guess it wouldn't do for a reporter to actually look up the facts before sensationalizing...
Fatal event rate per million flights:
Boeing (!) MD80/90 0.24
CRJ 0.24
737 all models 0.37
737NG 0.14
A320 series 0.15
737-300/400/500 (contemporary to the MD80) 0.20
Fokker 70/100 0.46
757 0.32
767 0.41
747 0.79
As at the end of 2006; I doubt the stats have changed radically since then.
just to give a random pick. The MD80 series thus compares well with its contemporaries. Source: Airsafe.com
Beech
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"Older aircraft crash more " I'm not being flippant at all but surely they crash only once. Common logic states that the longer any type of aircraft is in service the greater the accidents that type of aircraft sustains. Another factor would obviously be the number of that type entering service.
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"Accident History Of MD-80 Series: The MD-82 plane that crashed in Madrid is part of an aircraft series that has a history blighted with accidents. "
from Sky News
I guess it wouldn't do for a reporter to actually look up the facts before sensationalizing...
from Sky News
I guess it wouldn't do for a reporter to actually look up the facts before sensationalizing...
The news and the truth are not necessarily the same and you often have to wait for the latter.
Peter We:
Utter rubbish. You are confusing "Old" with "Badly maintained", and if anything, new aircraft have less tolerance to bad maintenance than older models.
Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features.
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Just seen the photos sky news. There appears to be a blackened area on one photo that appears to have the sooty characteristics of a hydrocarbon fire but the fire the helicopter is trying to put out has white smoke, which isnt normally hydocarbon, so probably vegetation which has ignited. I seem to recall that Spain has had an unusually long dry hot spell recently that would provide the conditions for vegetation fire
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For FS mercurydancer - read previous posts before you decide to tell us what really happened.
EXAMPLE OF PREVIOUS POST.
EXAMPLE OF PREVIOUS POST.
Various Press stating that the field in which the A/C came to a halt was filled with dry straw/hay, so as flaming fuselage came past, sets alot of it on fire. Firecrews had to put out the burning plants before any access to the A/C was made, took a while.
only a handfull of professional posts so far, but at least they are worth reading
It's useless to discuss engine failures and/or maintenance/dispatch so early with so few facts.
The aircraft is quite capable of safe takeoff with the loss of a single engine. A more significant failure would typically leave debris on the runway.
Engine fire reports should not be taken as indicative of a primary failure condition. They are just as often associated with secondary effects after the aircraft gets into trouble.
If there are any links to close up pictures please post .
It's useless to discuss engine failures and/or maintenance/dispatch so early with so few facts.
The aircraft is quite capable of safe takeoff with the loss of a single engine. A more significant failure would typically leave debris on the runway.
Engine fire reports should not be taken as indicative of a primary failure condition. They are just as often associated with secondary effects after the aircraft gets into trouble.
If there are any links to close up pictures please post .
More bang for your buck
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Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features.
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QUOTE: "Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features."
I don't think the actual age of the aircraft is really a factor; the number of flight hours maybe (Maybe not).
As regards brake dust/soot etc on the bodywork, well, all that indicates is that a plane hasn't been washed in a while! It's certainly "normal".
I don't think the actual age of the aircraft is really a factor; the number of flight hours maybe (Maybe not).
As regards brake dust/soot etc on the bodywork, well, all that indicates is that a plane hasn't been washed in a while! It's certainly "normal".
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Just an SLF here but I heard an "expert" (name of Gleave, Grieve???) on the BBC saying (something like) "we've all been on an aircraft and you hear the engines power up a bit before going to full power to take-off - that's the pilots testing they're going to respond correctly before commencing take-off"
Is that correct?
I always thought it was to do with running the engines up gently to avoid excessive wear by "firewalling" them.
But I'm a retired lawyer so what do I know? Please correct me as necessary. Thanks.
Is that correct?
I always thought it was to do with running the engines up gently to avoid excessive wear by "firewalling" them.
But I'm a retired lawyer so what do I know? Please correct me as necessary. Thanks.
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Old v New
Older aircraft crash more and suffer from more issues due to age and design features
That can happen with anything, be it your 'Dyson' or 'B787'
Rgds
The Moss