Spanair accident at Madrid

[TioPablo]

Spanish TVE reports only 19 survivors from which 11 are fighting for their lives at this moment.

[liffy2A]

Rudder Control question

I have read that VR can be as high 150kts, with the days conditions as seen on tv ( dont know the performance of the a/c) V1 I guess, wouldnt be greatly less.I'm wondering could anyone say how much Rudder input would be needed for directional control with a failure after V1 on the MD82? Its alot in a large turboprop I know. I have also done it in a 732 sim and the input need is alot less. The 320 I believe auto trims for a failure like this.Would it get the better of a new FO? Maybe overcontrol? I have seen the CNN reconstruction and i think its a waste of time. The tail cone completely falls off after rotation which I find hard to believe. My thoughts are with all concerned "peace be with you"

[Aeromar27]

although MAD seems to be blessed by a lot of space (as compared to my home airport LHR...), since the expansion I can't help thinking that the runways are designed a little strangely and somewhat not reassuringly

I mean just imagine if this flight was taking off in the other direction, or going east-west from one of the older runways - we would be talking not only Spanair but also crash into terminals and/or parked aircraft

ADDED DETAIL:

crash took place on 36L, but same runway other way round (18R) would mean crashing into parked aircraft (if in straight line), hangars, and even pax terminals if veered of straight line

same potential issue if taking off from 33L or 15L

note: this is because of the rather peculiar way of constructing the new terminal/satellite pretty much at the end of the older runways - not really the way most new or updated airports are built !!

I have to correct you on that one. Runways 33 and 18, L and R are never used for takeoff, only for landings. Depending on configuration, takeoffs will always be conducted from rwy 36 or 15, L and R... so airplanes never take off facing the terminals (although it used to be like that several years ago).

[flightcaptain]

Lost in Saigon's is the best translation

I'm spanish and your's is just the most accurate translation of these words of the car driver of the new from El Mundo newspaper.
Only remember all of you that this guy is a car driver seeing the thigs from one side of the runways and with zero knowledgement of aviation and how to carry succesfully an emergency during take off.
Now all the "clever" reporters in Spain are trying to shine in the news with the most astonishing version. Only a retired captain of Iberia, invited in a TV show has told the truth: «Wait for the investigation, but an engine failure or fire is not enough to fall down a plane.» Nor a MD8X that seems not like to somebody.
Requiescant In Pace

[elfinknight]

Just to correct a previous poster ( no disrespect meant) the o/wing exits on the MD-80s do not have slides. To my memory, they use escape ropes to facilitate exit.
But I do think that the MD-80 is a stronger built than many others in it's category.
My thoughts and condolences to the families involved. RIP

[737forever]

All this MD80 unsafe bull****

Have been watching news on Television and internet the last five to six hours.Most of the Media seems to describe the maddog as an unsafe plane with a long accident list.There have been built nearly 1200 of them,and they have been around for 28 years.The MD80 accident rate (Fatal) was for many years approximatly the same as the A320 series and newer versions of 737,s.Since many of the maddogs are getting older,they are sold to operators with perhaps a less safety standard in the third world.But still an safety record of 0,24 accident in one million flights is still very impressive.
Should the media get away with this bull****,scaring millions of air travellers away from an aircraft which still will be in use for several years by major airlines?Since the hole industrie is suffering,and only a few makes money,this media made problem can get very serious.

[wileydog3]

Would it be fair to say that a catastrophic MD-80 crash might be less survivable than a more modern aircraft? Specifically, I'm referring to the accessibility of exit doors and the lack of fire suppression systems.

You term it a 'catastrophic' crash and in that case, all bets are off. And if there is enough force to break the fuselage, there is also probably enough force to rupture the fuel tanks. And with 30-40,000lbs of fuel, the fire as well as smoke and fumes diminishes any chance for survival. Also with enough force to break up the fuselage, there is the possibility of blunt force injuries.

Remember that accidents are the exception and each one has a high number of unique factors. So, is the -80 less survivable? I don't think anyone can make the argument.

[wileydog3]

I have read that VR can be as high 150kts, with the days conditions as seen on tv ( dont know the performance of the a/c) V1 I guess, wouldnt be greatly less.I'm wondering could anyone say how much Rudder input would be needed for directional control with a failure after V1 on the MD82?

It takes whatever it takes, not to be flippant. Rudder would depend on thrust and whether the crew was using MAX thrust or a reduced or FLEX thrust. And also at what speed the failure occurs as the rudder becomes more effective at higher speeds.

You put in enough rudder to keep the plane going straight. One point no one has mentioned with the possibility of the airplane getting airborne is a failure at V2. From my time instructing in the simulator, V2 cuts were much uglier and more difficult than the V1 cuts.

With a V1 cut, you still have a tri-cycle but with a V2 cut, there is a tendency among some pilots to use a fair amount of aileron and then they begin a rudder dance of putting in inputs and taking them out. And the nose is in the air and if the crew over-rotates, it only compounds the problem for handling.

[vapilot2004]

In the photos linked above to a Spanish forum, am I to understand the local authorities are already craning out debris? This could be a hindrance to a proper investigation.

[PJ2]

vapilot2004:
Re craning out debris, I wondered about that as well. I wonder what the urgency is, as I understand the wreckage is not obstructing traffic. Certainly seems a rush to me - mapping and labeling all take time as does mapping skid marks, metal scrapes, gouges in the dirt etc - All that evidence is being compromised. The NTSB would only assist and wouldn't have the IIC but it certainly seems premature. I wonder too if they've found the boxes?

Unless one has first-hand knowledge (been there, not heard it 2nd hand), re thrust reversers and skid marks from post 156 - I think it's premature to draw conclusions about flight phases in such a catastrophic break-up.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Here is a sequence of photos from El Mundo
Terrible accidente aéreo en Barajas | elmundo.es

[VAFFPAX]

wileydog3, add to that a what appears to be significant drop from the runway to the rocky terrain (see pic from Spanish forum, see satellite imagery on Google Maps). There are two creeks that cross the terrain too, so there is some elevation between the runways and the natural terrain...

It is possible that the terrain may have had an impact on the rupture of the wings/fuselage.

S.

[RiSq]

I was thinking the exact same thing regarding the crane removing wreckage. Obviously there's a few reasons that they might lift it up, one would be to ensure there is no persons / bodies underneath I'd presume. Another less likely would be that they already have a good idea of the cause and are now trying to piece together the chain that led to the outcome...who knows, but it does seem odd....

Is there any reports on whether the Pilots survived, as it seems that the majority of the damage is to the rear, so I presume the few survivors are towards the front of the plane.

Here's one for the experts....Where do the avionics for the control systems run on an MD-82? I was just wondering if an explosive engine failiure could have resulted in control surfaces being severed, much like the United Flight some years back......

I don't know much, and won't pretend I do. Just thinking aloud and waiting to hear what the experts around here think..

[Trojan1981]

They might have been trying to recover possible survivors or even casualties.? There is a perception in the community (justified or otherwise) that the MD-8x series is unsafe, just like there was with the DC-10. I don't necessarily agree.

My condolences to the families of the pax and crew involved. Lets at least wait for the initial release of factual information from the authorities before speculating as to cause.

[liffy2A]

Thanks Wileydog, yes I know the more airspeed you have in this situation the better, This is the avenue I was thinking about, say a a huge engine failure and failure around V2 which would give you zero thrust. Also would an MD82 have an RTOW on this Runway? as the plane was quiet full.

Vaffpax the area of the departure has a Zone that has been calculated usually 5 degrees either side of the centre line that allows for something like a veer after an engine failure. if there is an obstacle in this area, performance is factored either a turn away from it after departure or a Reduced Takeoff weight RTOW so the aircraft can climb at a better rate clearing it. What I have said is a rough guide I'm not a performace expert.

[RiSq]

Just a note to some - a couple of those El Mundo photo's are quite graphic and a little insensitive, just a warning in case you have a look etc. But I guess the spanish news system isn't as censored as here in the UK. I'm referring to picture 9, where it looks like someone has been subjected to some horrendous heat and burns...

If these are the "lucky" ones to survive, I beg to differ with those injuries..

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I have this SAD feeling that this Accident could be the end for Spanair.

As it has already been said, The SAS group have said that Spanair has been a 'Burden' on the group's finances & the potential strike.

And now today.

I hope not.

Long live Spanair.

[LynxDriver]

Long Live Spanair?

What a totally vacuous thing to say.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

What??

It wasn't meant as that.

[Lost in Saigon]

Originally Posted by liffy2A

I was thinking about, say a a huge engine failure and failure around V2 which would give you zero thrust. Also would an MD82 have an RTOW on this Runway? as the plane was quiet full.

Any transport category aircraft HAS to be able to takeoff, or reject a takeoff, safely at any airport it operates from, given the conditions at the time. If it is too heavy, or the runway is too short, or the wind is not favourable, or ???.... , you do not takeoff until you remedy the situation.

Very simple and that why Airline travel is so safe today.