Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Spanair accident at Madrid

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Spanair accident at Madrid

Old 23rd Oct 2011, 12:52
  #2681 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CarrotLand
Posts: 699
No ONE has deactivated the TOWS, NO ONE!
Tiennetti is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2011, 14:12
  #2682 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
Report: CIAIAC publishes final report on fatal MD-82 takeoff accident Madrid, Spain Aviation Safety Network's News

It's been over 3 years and they just came out with this final report. It doesn't help much. The R2-5 relay was the air/ground sensor getting it's information from the nose gear strut. It sensed air mode so the probe heater was hot causing their return for maintenance. The air mode was also thought to be why they had no TOWS since it was powered through the same relay. I agree, maintenance didn't disable it, they just didn't realize it was inop when they disabled the probe heater by pulling it's CB as I remember.

A couple of years ago someone posted a schematic of the circuits involved on this thread.
bubbers44 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2011, 22:22
  #2683 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 203
Thanks for the rferesher bubbers on the relay and CB'S.

Stated well, unanswered questions remain.

The Flight crew were the last defence in James Reasons Causal pathway, swiss cheese, yes its been discussed before,

Did the Spanish and European Air Transportation system fail the PIC and Flightcrew of JK 5022 ?

Is there going to be a commision of inquiry in the aviation system mandated by the Spanish ( EuropeanJAR ) judge in this ongoing case ?

No matter how professional flight crews can be and trained , can they be expected to outperform the system ?

One of the things that came out of the Dryden report is how profit and commercial pressures can take precedence over safety. Although companies state that it is primary.

What has changed and improved in the Aviation system since the accident in Dryden 1989 ? It appears that some lessons have not been learned

As per a report from the Rutgers Scholar perhaps the the Reason model can be improve upon,

" However, the Reason model does not fully account for the detailed role of the organizational system within which design and management decisions are taken and through which the consequences of such decisions are taken forward. That is, the Reason model, in its current form, fails to provide the detailed linkages from individual to task/environment to organization beyond a general framework of line management deficiencies and psychological precursors of unsafe acts. A review of the safety literature reveals that there is a gap between bottom-up approaches which start with the analysis of errors and safety events and top-down approaches that address the system from the level of the organization. Pidgeon and O’Leary (1994) note that if safety analysts do not understand the link between practical safety management initiatives and an organization’s safety culture it is impossible to begin to design initiatives to improve safety management practice except on a purely ad hoc and pragmatic basis. "

Below are the Organizational Factors in the Dryden Air Ontario Accident.
See any similarities ?

What about Deficient Inspection, Auditing and Control, Deficient checking, inadequate purchasing of Spares.?

Figure 2. "Organizational factors" in the Air Ontario 1363 accident. Disparate allocation of resources to safety and production activities (AO/AC) Deficient handling of information (AO) Inadequate management of change (AO) Deficient inspection and control (TC/AC) Deficiencies in operations and maintenance (AO) Inadequate purchasing of spares (AO) Deficient management of the F28 programme (AO) Low motivation (merger) (AO) Deficient lines of communication between management and pesonnel (AO) Inadequate policy-making (TC/AO) Deficient scheduling (overcommitment of the F28) (AO) Deficient planning in the introduction of the F28 (AO) Deficient monitoring and auditing (TC/AC) Goal-setting (failure to carry properly states' goals into deed) (AO) Deficient checking (TC
Jimmy Hoffa Rocks is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2011, 22:36
  #2684 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Folks need to remember that flying aeroplanes can get you killed.
Old 26th Oct 2011, 00:35
  #2685 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
That is why it is important to have your own mental checklist lining up for takeoff, flaps set and speedbrakes retracted, and landing gear and flaps for landing. Quite simple and eliminates checklist mishaps. I had the Madrid fault happen to me in an MD80 because of a nose gear strut overinflation making it put us in air mode taxiing out with the strobes flashing and no TOWS operative. Sometimes things don't work as they should so take care of yourself. Especially in an MD80.
bubbers44 is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2011, 06:47
  #2686 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CarrotLand
Posts: 699
Bubbers, you had not the same fault, as your airplane was completely in flight mode, while the jk5022 had only 2 (+2) system in the wrong configuration.
Out of this 4 systems, only 1 can be detected with normal pilot scan (RAT as it happened ). TOWS misfunctioning can only be detected if you do an unscheduled system check advancing the throttles. The others two systems (avionic cooling and ac x-tie) are backed up by others relays, and thus will be funcioning as normal
It's curios to see how an unessential (for safety) system like the avionic cooling has 1 or 2 backup relays, while the TOWS relies solely on 1 relay...

In your case you would have many and many systems misbehaving on ground, triggering something in your mind (as they have probably done)
Tiennetti is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2011, 17:27
  #2687 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
You are probably right. The R2-5 relay was only one of several relays affected by the a/g sensor. The R2-5 relay failing by itself could have caused their problem. The final report wasn't very conclusive on what caused the R2-5 relay to be in air mode. Corrosion in the socket could have done it, or a faulty relay which should have been easy to check. Being put in a situation as they were kept me interested in the outcome but guess this is all we will know.
bubbers44 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.