BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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hatcheth
Pilots are a commodity in an open market
Regards
Stoic
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Good luck!
Good luck to all BA pilots. I sincerely hope that they stay the course and not waver an inch. Such a blatant attack on T&C's can only be met with the fiercest conviction and willingness to see it through.
I only hope that the group of pilots I belong to will show the same determination in our coming battle with management.
Regards,
Ramrise
I only hope that the group of pilots I belong to will show the same determination in our coming battle with management.
Regards,
Ramrise
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As for the pathetic pilots on here who don't support the BA pilots, grow up, why on earth do some people like to see others brought down to their level. I would rather get my T's&C's up to BA pilots (unlikely in the charter world, but we continue to fight for the best we can achieve)
As for people masquerading (excuse spelling) as upset pax etc (although i'm sure a couple of you are for real), p
off. Your lack of reasoning or understanding of this industry qualifies most of you to write for the Mail. There are some very patient people here who have tried to explain everything time and time again, yet you refuse to listen.
As for people masquerading (excuse spelling) as upset pax etc (although i'm sure a couple of you are for real), p
off. Your lack of reasoning or understanding of this industry qualifies most of you to write for the Mail. There are some very patient people here who have tried to explain everything time and time again, yet you refuse to listen.
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We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world.
PPRuNe Person
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Capot. I have created a thread in Jetblast, here just for you to post your foul-mouthed rantings - enjoy! 
For those following the substance of this thread, expect BALPA's next move to be announced tomorrow, after having taken legal advice.
For those following the substance of this thread, expect BALPA's next move to be announced tomorrow, after having taken legal advice.
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To all our pax
Well I thought that I should let you know:
I have important travel plans with BA (life changing) but I still support the strike.
Why are we in the UK always looking to put down others!
I want to protect my future just as you would yours!!!
sunny
I have important travel plans with BA (life changing) but I still support the strike.
Why are we in the UK always looking to put down others!
I want to protect my future just as you would yours!!!
sunny
Sunny, thank you for that!
BA management, if thats what you can call them, are going to get a fight. As for that Wee Willy Wotsit, he's going to get a !"£$%^ up the &*()+.
BA management, if thats what you can call them, are going to get a fight. As for that Wee Willy Wotsit, he's going to get a !"£$%^ up the &*()+.
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I want to protect my future......
Of course you do - and so does everybody else but unfortunately in life that which you deem as being best for yourself and colleagues with similar skills is not always best for the whole company.
Let's be clear, I empathise with your cause but I do not sympathise with it. The company MUST advance and grow and change to meet current or future market conditions and whether you like it or not Walsh has been hired to achieve that objective. The change is coming and OpenSkies is going to affect many but if that is to be the case then BALPA has to say to itself "This change is coming so what can we do to fight for the best possible terms and conditions in the light of this change" That "fight" as I have called it is really a negotiating attitude to do the best it can realising that when all the dust has settled the company will achieve its purpose or go under - as all businesses do. BA is not privileged to be isolated from this commercial pressure.
Many industries go through crisis times similar to that with BA and some do worse than others but BA should with its size be able to capitaise on all the benefits of OpenSkies and if it thrives creates secure employment. Perhaps not as attractive as before but employment.
If I was a member of BALPA, which I am not, nor do I work for any airline, I would say "go back again and start negotiating terms that are the best you can and secure modifications for the benefit of your members, in the light of the inevitable changes, that are acceptable to the management".
Walking away from the table or striking is definitely NOT negotiating.
Let's be clear, I empathise with your cause but I do not sympathise with it. The company MUST advance and grow and change to meet current or future market conditions and whether you like it or not Walsh has been hired to achieve that objective. The change is coming and OpenSkies is going to affect many but if that is to be the case then BALPA has to say to itself "This change is coming so what can we do to fight for the best possible terms and conditions in the light of this change" That "fight" as I have called it is really a negotiating attitude to do the best it can realising that when all the dust has settled the company will achieve its purpose or go under - as all businesses do. BA is not privileged to be isolated from this commercial pressure.
Many industries go through crisis times similar to that with BA and some do worse than others but BA should with its size be able to capitaise on all the benefits of OpenSkies and if it thrives creates secure employment. Perhaps not as attractive as before but employment.
If I was a member of BALPA, which I am not, nor do I work for any airline, I would say "go back again and start negotiating terms that are the best you can and secure modifications for the benefit of your members, in the light of the inevitable changes, that are acceptable to the management".
Walking away from the table or striking is definitely NOT negotiating.
Mach 3
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OMG. Give me strength. Is the propensity to strike among BA employees because they actually believe that?
BA were recently fined £350 million for price fixing.
Tell me....as a customer do you like being ripped off? Or is that alright because your company pays for your ticket?
I find it curious that "customers" come on this site and want to defend those that defraud them?
Please give me your money instead if you don't want it.
Still, I digress.
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Real shame seeing the vitriol spouted by some of you....
I do not understand how anyone closely related to the airline industry can be so blinkered to the truth...
Having flown for a low cost carrier for a good while I know exactly what it is like on the other side of the fence, and fyi wrt to pilots it's ALL the same!!!
I came to BA for reasons, one of them certainly ISN'T Pay.
Command was gained after 5 years in my LoCo, Pay was at least 30% better than the equivalent F/O in BA shorthaul.
I've taken a paycut for the first 15 years I spend in this company, I do 900hrs/year and have to live with the cr@p of London Heathrow. I get force drafted when I want to spend time with my family and have been asked to give back 25% of my pension.
However, this issue is NOT about T&C's. Bother to read the threads and listen to guys that are trying to educate you about what 'management' is trying to do here!!
I've worked hard to get where I am and in so doing I am proud to be working for BA.
I'm not ignorant of the real world out there, been there done it.
To say that BA pilots haven't evolved, grow up and smell the roses. Obviously not doing any research and getting on with shooting from the hip is making this industry a pile of SH1T.
As a complete moderate and someone that takes genuine interest in the Managerial aspects of flying, (Fwiw a degree study in management and law) I still arrive at the same position as 86% of my fellow pilots in BALPA.
This has got nothing do with a proper discussion or council with an independent body.
Unfortunately they won't reason, what do you want me to do? Just give in to management and let's all drive this profession down the drain? So that we can sit on this forum and finally agree that it's sh1t and a real shame it had to come to this?
Guys, have some foresight, it's what's needed in aviation anyway to deal with certain emergencies.
I do not understand how anyone closely related to the airline industry can be so blinkered to the truth...
Having flown for a low cost carrier for a good while I know exactly what it is like on the other side of the fence, and fyi wrt to pilots it's ALL the same!!!
I came to BA for reasons, one of them certainly ISN'T Pay.
Command was gained after 5 years in my LoCo, Pay was at least 30% better than the equivalent F/O in BA shorthaul.
I've taken a paycut for the first 15 years I spend in this company, I do 900hrs/year and have to live with the cr@p of London Heathrow. I get force drafted when I want to spend time with my family and have been asked to give back 25% of my pension.
However, this issue is NOT about T&C's. Bother to read the threads and listen to guys that are trying to educate you about what 'management' is trying to do here!!
I've worked hard to get where I am and in so doing I am proud to be working for BA.
I'm not ignorant of the real world out there, been there done it.
To say that BA pilots haven't evolved, grow up and smell the roses. Obviously not doing any research and getting on with shooting from the hip is making this industry a pile of SH1T.
As a complete moderate and someone that takes genuine interest in the Managerial aspects of flying, (Fwiw a degree study in management and law) I still arrive at the same position as 86% of my fellow pilots in BALPA.
This has got nothing do with a proper discussion or council with an independent body.
Unfortunately they won't reason, what do you want me to do? Just give in to management and let's all drive this profession down the drain? So that we can sit on this forum and finally agree that it's sh1t and a real shame it had to come to this?
Guys, have some foresight, it's what's needed in aviation anyway to deal with certain emergencies.
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SR71
I can't make head or tail of your post; what did you think I meant?
As for research, I did some before posting, as it happens; I compared BA's last published profit figures with certain other airlines'. On none of the many ways of interpreting the description "the most profitable airline in the world" does the assertion that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" stand up.
It seems to me important that BA's pilots, if they really think that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" and thus able to suffer large losses with impunity, are gently told that this is not the case.
That fine didn't help. either.
I hope that overstressed doesn't take umbrage again at another foul-mouthed rant.
I can't make head or tail of your post; what did you think I meant?
As for research, I did some before posting, as it happens; I compared BA's last published profit figures with certain other airlines'. On none of the many ways of interpreting the description "the most profitable airline in the world" does the assertion that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" stand up.
It seems to me important that BA's pilots, if they really think that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" and thus able to suffer large losses with impunity, are gently told that this is not the case.
That fine didn't help. either.
I hope that overstressed doesn't take umbrage again at another foul-mouthed rant.
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Obviously I do not work for BA.
But as a fellow aviator and BALPA member I am right behind the BA BALPA members.
In EZY we are facing our own managments' tactics for watering down the Ts and Cs of pilots with contracts on the mainland that are dissgraceful as well as divisive, that aim to break any union within our ranks.
BA should be the yard stick by which others are measured by. I have no desire to work for them or work out of London, but they are our national flag carrier and what happens there has implications for us all.
The reponse from the EZY membership to such threats has been, frankly, pathetic. I am hopeful that the example set here by BA BALPA members will be an inspiration to our membership ( and the fence sitters ) and demonstrate that when our employers become unreasonable and continue to devalue what we as professionals are worth, then, maybe, just maybe, we may be able to recover some of the ground that has been lost over the last decade or so, that has seen the profession slide to feed the self serving interests of our respective airline management boards.
I know this is about more than T's and C's, it is about protecting the future of the job.
Looks like the BA management are about to get dirty though, stand tall chaps, look em in the eyes, you have been more than reasonable, whilst they have gone in the opposite direction. Strike action will, of course, upset Joe Publics plans, and your management will try to lay that blame firmly at your door. At the end of the day when all reasonable efforts have been exhausted and still your employer keeps on this track, then what choice is a membership left with? You have the moral high ground here.
Best of Bristish to you all.
But as a fellow aviator and BALPA member I am right behind the BA BALPA members.
In EZY we are facing our own managments' tactics for watering down the Ts and Cs of pilots with contracts on the mainland that are dissgraceful as well as divisive, that aim to break any union within our ranks.
BA should be the yard stick by which others are measured by. I have no desire to work for them or work out of London, but they are our national flag carrier and what happens there has implications for us all.
The reponse from the EZY membership to such threats has been, frankly, pathetic. I am hopeful that the example set here by BA BALPA members will be an inspiration to our membership ( and the fence sitters ) and demonstrate that when our employers become unreasonable and continue to devalue what we as professionals are worth, then, maybe, just maybe, we may be able to recover some of the ground that has been lost over the last decade or so, that has seen the profession slide to feed the self serving interests of our respective airline management boards.
I know this is about more than T's and C's, it is about protecting the future of the job.
Looks like the BA management are about to get dirty though, stand tall chaps, look em in the eyes, you have been more than reasonable, whilst they have gone in the opposite direction. Strike action will, of course, upset Joe Publics plans, and your management will try to lay that blame firmly at your door. At the end of the day when all reasonable efforts have been exhausted and still your employer keeps on this track, then what choice is a membership left with? You have the moral high ground here.
Best of Bristish to you all.
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Good luck all BA pilots. You have taken the lessons learnt in place like Australia, Spain and elsewhere about the intentions of airline managements everywhere and are prepared to draw a line in the sand.
Those of you criticising the actions of BA pilots have little concept of the stakes involved.
Those of you criticising the actions of BA pilots have little concept of the stakes involved.
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The fighting talk is getting stronger, unless there is compromise it will all end in tears.
Striking always seems petulant even when the cause is great. This strike may serve to strengthen the BA brand in the long run as the management will surely win the PR battle. As a nation, we have seen too many strikes of late and with a recession looming and the pilot market capacity shrinking this could end badly.
Striking always seems petulant even when the cause is great. This strike may serve to strengthen the BA brand in the long run as the management will surely win the PR battle. As a nation, we have seen too many strikes of late and with a recession looming and the pilot market capacity shrinking this could end badly.
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For those who object to Joe Public having his/her say about all this; if you don't like it don't use a public forum. There is a perfectly good BALPA forum, probably several, for you to stoke up your indignation in without opposition.
At the risk of being boringly repetitive, Joe Public, as one non-BA pilot contempuously calls those who pay his salary, doesn't give a toss whose fault it is. To her and him, it looks like two children blaming each other in front of an adult. A pox on both your houses, she and he are thinking.
She and he will just find another airline and never, ever, come back to BA. Tens of thousands have done that already after other self-inflicted disruptions, and more are joining them every day. The utter chaos BAA have created at LHR, with BA's assistance, isn't helping, either. many are finding another airport as well as another airline.
So tell me again about "winning" a strike?
Strike action will, of course, upset Joe Publics plans, and your management will try to lay that blame firmly at your door.
She and he will just find another airline and never, ever, come back to BA. Tens of thousands have done that already after other self-inflicted disruptions, and more are joining them every day. The utter chaos BAA have created at LHR, with BA's assistance, isn't helping, either. many are finding another airport as well as another airline.
So tell me again about "winning" a strike?
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The company MUST advance and grow and change to meet current or future market conditions and whether you like it or not Walsh has been hired to achieve that objective
If the public are happy with this then god help us. Personally I prefer motivated, enthusiastic professionals up front. I KNOW these people are perfect for the job and have no doubt in their abilities. We are not 'flight sim' pilots, no disrespect intended, but the real thing is very different.
If I was a member of BALPA, which I am not, nor do I work for any airline, I would say "go back again and start negotiating terms that are the best you can and secure modifications for the benefit of your members, in the light of the inevitable changes, that are acceptable to the management".
Sunny
Mach 3
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Crockpot,
BA has consistently been one of the most profitable airlines in the world for the last two decades. In fact, I believe it was off the back of this profitability that they coined the phrase "Worlds Favourite Airline"?
Try: http://www.atwonline.com/channels/da...eport_2006.pdf
Only KLM/Air France, Lufthansa & FeDeX were more profitable in 2006.
Anyone who works for BA knows that its ongoing profitability in lieu of how much inefficiency there is in the system is staggering.
Giovanni Bisangani, IATA CEO said recently that in 2002, airlines needed fuel to be < ~$20/barrel to scrape into profitability. These days they're profitable at $70/barrel.
Somehow, the airlines have managed to cope with a 400% rise in one of their principal costs. I figure we're a pretty adaptable bunch inspite of the fact that interpreter thinks we're fossilised.
BA is hedged 50% for 2008 @ $81/barrel I believe?
BA paid up £350 million in fines recently without batting an eyelid so to speak.
BA pilots do not wish to see the profit their company makes squandered (unlike, it must be said, some BA managers, who are willing to potentially gamble away 40,000 people's livelihood by indulging in some after hours "price fixing"....perhaps over a bottle of 1900 Chateau Lafite Rothschild?) and neither do they believe that their T&C's are the difference between liquidation and profitability.
So, BA is not about to collapse in a heap if OS pilots were to be paid BA Mainline pilot wages....especially if we're only talking about 6 airframes worth of pilots.
There is still lots of fat in the system.
In fact, I personally am not even convinced that BALPA & the BACC should have conceded that there exists a defensible argument for OS pilots to have a different set of T&C's either...but then I haven't seen the propaganda they've pedalled on that basis.
But, tell me, who exactly are OS's competitors?
And on what T&C's are their pilots flying those routes?
The argument for inflated City salaries is, that good money makes good money. Why exactly doesn't that apply in the case of pilots then?
And as for customers who still can't quite see that BA has been defrauding them and that maybe the pilots are doing them a favour....
As for research, I did some before posting, as it happens; I compared BA's last published profit figures with certain other airlines'. On none of the many ways of interpreting the description "the most profitable airline in the world" does the assertion that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" stand up.
Try: http://www.atwonline.com/channels/da...eport_2006.pdf
Only KLM/Air France, Lufthansa & FeDeX were more profitable in 2006.
It seems to me important that BA's pilots, if they really think that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" and thus able to suffer large losses with impunity, are gently told that this is not the case.
Giovanni Bisangani, IATA CEO said recently that in 2002, airlines needed fuel to be < ~$20/barrel to scrape into profitability. These days they're profitable at $70/barrel.
Somehow, the airlines have managed to cope with a 400% rise in one of their principal costs. I figure we're a pretty adaptable bunch inspite of the fact that interpreter thinks we're fossilised.
BA is hedged 50% for 2008 @ $81/barrel I believe?
BA paid up £350 million in fines recently without batting an eyelid so to speak.
BA pilots do not wish to see the profit their company makes squandered (unlike, it must be said, some BA managers, who are willing to potentially gamble away 40,000 people's livelihood by indulging in some after hours "price fixing"....perhaps over a bottle of 1900 Chateau Lafite Rothschild?) and neither do they believe that their T&C's are the difference between liquidation and profitability.
So, BA is not about to collapse in a heap if OS pilots were to be paid BA Mainline pilot wages....especially if we're only talking about 6 airframes worth of pilots.
There is still lots of fat in the system.
In fact, I personally am not even convinced that BALPA & the BACC should have conceded that there exists a defensible argument for OS pilots to have a different set of T&C's either...but then I haven't seen the propaganda they've pedalled on that basis.
But, tell me, who exactly are OS's competitors?
And on what T&C's are their pilots flying those routes?
The argument for inflated City salaries is, that good money makes good money. Why exactly doesn't that apply in the case of pilots then?
And as for customers who still can't quite see that BA has been defrauding them and that maybe the pilots are doing them a favour....
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I'll say it again - this website is a frickin' disgrace.
The label says 'PROFESSIONAL PILOTS NETWORK'!?
It is in my ass.
And since we're talking about 'adaptation' and evolution' - I was a 'launch customer' on this site.
Not in my current name of course, my original ID was cancelled to satisfy the howls from the mob of anti-professional-pilot ranters, wannabes, and managers who now constitute the heaving mass of ninnies here.
I shudder now to think how much time I wasted here not so many years back.
But thank Christ, I'm cured now.
Its no longer top of my 'Favourites' list (jeez...
it was once my 'Homepage'!). Now it isn't even ON the list.
I stick my head in here about once a month at maximum, unless there's something going on, like this BA thing, in which case I might look in every few days.
I've made two or three posts in the last 3 months. But thats it.
This website is IRRELEVANT to Professional Pilots. Its a JOKE FORUM.
End of story.
I support the BA pilots in whatever action they take.
Stand strong guys.
The label says 'PROFESSIONAL PILOTS NETWORK'!?
It is in my ass.
And since we're talking about 'adaptation' and evolution' - I was a 'launch customer' on this site.
Not in my current name of course, my original ID was cancelled to satisfy the howls from the mob of anti-professional-pilot ranters, wannabes, and managers who now constitute the heaving mass of ninnies here.
I shudder now to think how much time I wasted here not so many years back.
But thank Christ, I'm cured now.
Its no longer top of my 'Favourites' list (jeez...
it was once my 'Homepage'!). Now it isn't even ON the list. I stick my head in here about once a month at maximum, unless there's something going on, like this BA thing, in which case I might look in every few days.
I've made two or three posts in the last 3 months. But thats it.
This website is IRRELEVANT to Professional Pilots. Its a JOKE FORUM.
End of story.
I support the BA pilots in whatever action they take.
Stand strong guys.