View Poll Results: Was the pilot of this display acting dangerously?
I AM a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,571
46.22%
I AM a professional pilot and I believe NO
360
10.59%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,024
30.13%
I Am NOT a professional pilot and I believe NO
311
9.15%
I have no opinion
133
3.91%
Voters: 3399. This poll is closed
Video footage of TAP A310 in extreme low flying turn at airshow
Join Date: Apr 1999
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GearDown&Locked said,
'It's a shame, really is, when we're seing xenophobic comments on this thread being allowed to stay and good professionals being banned just because they were expressing their opinion. I know this is Danny's train set but respect shouldn't be excluded.
I can imagine if this happened at farnborough with a BA plane most people here (if not the same ones present here) would start the classic "journo alert" mantra.'
If it was a BA plane at Farnborough I am sure people would make the same comments. No one is being xenophobic and I have been following the thread closely. I am amazed that every Portuguese poster has defaulted to the fact it was an amazing display. If you take the flag carrier factor away any sane professional pilot would say it was too close for comfort.
If I was a manager or shareholder in TAP I would not be best pleased to see such a display in the company's name.
'It's a shame, really is, when we're seing xenophobic comments on this thread being allowed to stay and good professionals being banned just because they were expressing their opinion. I know this is Danny's train set but respect shouldn't be excluded.
I can imagine if this happened at farnborough with a BA plane most people here (if not the same ones present here) would start the classic "journo alert" mantra.'
If it was a BA plane at Farnborough I am sure people would make the same comments. No one is being xenophobic and I have been following the thread closely. I am amazed that every Portuguese poster has defaulted to the fact it was an amazing display. If you take the flag carrier factor away any sane professional pilot would say it was too close for comfort.
If I was a manager or shareholder in TAP I would not be best pleased to see such a display in the company's name.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I have some nice pictures of a Sabena A340 doing a low pass around 30' above the runway , and a Sobelair B767 which, if they would lower the gear, it wouldn't be able to extend completely!
Both done by some of the best aviators in the industry.
Far too much complaining by people who obviously have nothing better to do.
I agree that the turn was a bit too "riqué" and should have been performed combined with a climb.
The low-pass however is just standard and very well performed.
PIC was the fleet chief by the way.
Both done by some of the best aviators in the industry.Far too much complaining by people who obviously have nothing better to do.
I agree that the turn was a bit too "riqué" and should have been performed combined with a climb.
The low-pass however is just standard and very well performed.
PIC was the fleet chief by the way.
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I think most of what CAN be said about the maneuver, has been said already.
I'd just like to add to the discussion the fact that, despite what has been said about there being no safety margin in the maneuver, I think that margin WAS there.
IMHO, the maneuver was NOT executed 100% according to the plan and the aircraft WAS too close to the ground for that sort of bank.
I'm sure both pilots will look at these videos and will think that it was a good thing the maneuver was planned with that safety margin. Because they actually DID need it. I'm sure they planned the aircraft to climb away quicker than it actually did. Notice the slight correction at 29secs into this following video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s
So, IMHO, the planned maneuver would have cleared the ground by a few more feet than what we actually saw at Evora. The maneuver was planned with a safety margin and both the pilots and the insurance company will be happy to have done so.
I'd just like to add to the discussion the fact that, despite what has been said about there being no safety margin in the maneuver, I think that margin WAS there.
IMHO, the maneuver was NOT executed 100% according to the plan and the aircraft WAS too close to the ground for that sort of bank.
I'm sure both pilots will look at these videos and will think that it was a good thing the maneuver was planned with that safety margin. Because they actually DID need it. I'm sure they planned the aircraft to climb away quicker than it actually did. Notice the slight correction at 29secs into this following video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s
So, IMHO, the planned maneuver would have cleared the ground by a few more feet than what we actually saw at Evora. The maneuver was planned with a safety margin and both the pilots and the insurance company will be happy to have done so.
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Aaah, so they had a safety margin, but they used it all (except for a few feet). Quite possibly, but still not a great position to be in.
As for the xenophobia - I couldn't care less what this aircraft has painted on the tail. Regardless of where it's from, I say this was too close for comfort.
As for the xenophobia - I couldn't care less what this aircraft has painted on the tail. Regardless of where it's from, I say this was too close for comfort.
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It's bad enough in a single designed for great visibility and manuverability. Surrender those attributes, and the operating margin shrinks rapidly.
I wonder what the insurance underwriters have to say about this??
I wonder what the insurance underwriters have to say about this??
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It seems most complainers here are just anally retentive...
Get of your high horses or stay in your nanny state where anything remotely adventurous is forbidden by your H&S.
Mike Jenvey,
The low-pas WAS safe and well executed in my professional opinion, except for the turn, which was indeed performed into the "error-margin". They lived, lessons were learned I'm sure and next time, they will adapt the profile.
Stop whingeing, get in your aircraft and fly.
Get of your high horses or stay in your nanny state where anything remotely adventurous is forbidden by your H&S.
Mike Jenvey,
The low-pas WAS safe and well executed in my professional opinion, except for the turn, which was indeed performed into the "error-margin". They lived, lessons were learned I'm sure and next time, they will adapt the profile.
Stop whingeing, get in your aircraft and fly.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Ya Know, being your basic ground pounder, I refrained from calling all you nay sayers a bunch of "you know whats" based on what I saw in the first video of the so called missed approach demonstration.
I didn't see the part where he circled around and, well, buzzed the camera man/person, or so it seemed until this evening.
Maybe if people referenced the particular snip they were looking at (there are titles, not in english, but you can figure it out), things may cool down a bit. I mean, the first example posted didn't look that bad at all. Only when you get curious and start clicking on other links (which are easy to think are the same as the other links these days) do you get an idea that maybe somebody left the reservation for a bit.
The particular video that got my attention was No.2 Pt.2. That's the one after the initial "M/A" where he circles back around dirty for another flyby.
Looked a little squirrely there.
The gear up fly by in another video looked a bit shaky as well, but what do I know? I just make sure that the wings stay on.
Be good folks, and if ye can't be good, don't get caught!
PB
I didn't see the part where he circled around and, well, buzzed the camera man/person, or so it seemed until this evening.
Maybe if people referenced the particular snip they were looking at (there are titles, not in english, but you can figure it out), things may cool down a bit. I mean, the first example posted didn't look that bad at all. Only when you get curious and start clicking on other links (which are easy to think are the same as the other links these days) do you get an idea that maybe somebody left the reservation for a bit.
The particular video that got my attention was No.2 Pt.2. That's the one after the initial "M/A" where he circles back around dirty for another flyby.
Looked a little squirrely there.
The gear up fly by in another video looked a bit shaky as well, but what do I know? I just make sure that the wings stay on.
Be good folks, and if ye can't be good, don't get caught!
PB
This is the Best Aviation Video i've ever seen in my entire life after the God called Bob Hoover »»»
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
In Portuguese we Simply Say...."Ganda Malha!!!"
Cheers and Million Kisses to Everyone Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
In Portuguese we Simply Say...."Ganda Malha!!!"
Cheers and Million Kisses to Everyone Here
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It is amazing to see a large jet performing moves like that, but every time I watch the videos I expect it to end with a large smoking hole in the ground. He got lucky.
I once saw a boy racer speed his Corsa the wrong way down a one-way street late at night. He got lucky too and there was no traffic coming the other way. If someone had been though (and he could have been Michael Schumacher for the difference it would make) then the result would have been a smoking hole.
You can't control everything and I'm surprised that the Chief Pilot would put himself, his plane and his crew in such a tight spot. Would there be such support if this was a pilot who was fresh out of school?
I once saw a boy racer speed his Corsa the wrong way down a one-way street late at night. He got lucky too and there was no traffic coming the other way. If someone had been though (and he could have been Michael Schumacher for the difference it would make) then the result would have been a smoking hole.
You can't control everything and I'm surprised that the Chief Pilot would put himself, his plane and his crew in such a tight spot. Would there be such support if this was a pilot who was fresh out of school?
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Airshows
A lot has been said on this thread about how dangerous that bank was, how close he was, no margin for error. It worked.
Much as been said about how it was planned, trained for, simulated. Great.
It was an AIRSHOW!!! Let us get back to the basics here.
The TAP pilots planned and flew a manouver for 50 hours in a sim that was so low down that only those on the front of the flightline and the "unauthorised" spectators could have seen it?
At an airshow there are at least two things that decide what the display is all about. One, it is safe. Two, the crowd can see it!
That wheels down low pass and bank failed the "can the crowd see it" test.
(check ALL the videos)
(Disclaimer, not a pilot but I once flew a Chipmunk from the back seat for 15 mins while the instructor smoked a pipe....)
Much as been said about how it was planned, trained for, simulated. Great.
It was an AIRSHOW!!! Let us get back to the basics here.
The TAP pilots planned and flew a manouver for 50 hours in a sim that was so low down that only those on the front of the flightline and the "unauthorised" spectators could have seen it?
At an airshow there are at least two things that decide what the display is all about. One, it is safe. Two, the crowd can see it!
That wheels down low pass and bank failed the "can the crowd see it" test.
(check ALL the videos)
(Disclaimer, not a pilot but I once flew a Chipmunk from the back seat for 15 mins while the instructor smoked a pipe....)
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SLF trash now but been close to a similar situation before. (Not my error)
In my case, the check pilot was well behind the aircraft I was flying and made a sudden, surprise decision that nearly cost me and mine dearly.
The comments regarding this incident are possibly lost on this pilot, he is likely to be leaving aviation soon one way or the other. However the comments are extremely relevant to other drivers who will follow him in doing something on the edge.
Always on balance, I vote with my feet.
Calling for armchair and slippers,
Imagegear
In my case, the check pilot was well behind the aircraft I was flying and made a sudden, surprise decision that nearly cost me and mine dearly.
The comments regarding this incident are possibly lost on this pilot, he is likely to be leaving aviation soon one way or the other. However the comments are extremely relevant to other drivers who will follow him in doing something on the edge.
Always on balance, I vote with my feet.
Calling for armchair and slippers,
Imagegear
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Can the pilot see his wing-tip and the ground that far back?
I note that Hoover's wing-tip touched at one point. Too much dust just for the vortex IMHO. No smoking hole.
Is it really feasible that the aircraft would cartwheel if the tip did touch? I would have thought it would have just been an expensive and very embarrassing repair. Oh, and increased insurance premiums.
I note that Hoover's wing-tip touched at one point. Too much dust just for the vortex IMHO. No smoking hole.
Is it really feasible that the aircraft would cartwheel if the tip did touch? I would have thought it would have just been an expensive and very embarrassing repair. Oh, and increased insurance premiums.
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I´m portuguese, and presently flying the A310, although not in TAP.
For those who in this forum have been insulting the pilot, calling him idiot, irresponsible, unprofessional and all that, beware: you're the next ones in line to break the face, because you need to think you're better than others and that´s not a good sign.
I know the guy that was flying the airplane, a he's a good pilot, as good as anyone else. Portugal is a small country, everybody knows everybody in aviation, and our standards are very homogeneous, there are not so many ways to trail a career in this country. I guess this shows on our safety record.
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact. This surely hasn't gone as planned. I won't make any considerations on height above ground and stuff like that, this was an air show and it seems appropriate to me. But:
1. Since my early fliyng, I was taught to do this maneuver in the following order: first you pull, then you roll. And in this case it was the other way round, rolled then pulled. I don't realy know how close that wingtip was from the ground, but thath's beside the point. And the airplane was left in a low energy condition for a long time during that turn, hanged by its engines (with those great engines it's very easy). I think he was lucky, gladly. It was not nice to watch this situation, althoug the enthusiasts loved it.
2. In one of the other low passes, gear up and flaps up, maybe slats extended, the aicraft entered a strong dutch roll motion, with a side slip beyond what I thing is acceptable for the situation, too much uncoordinated flight for that height in a jetliner. Dutch roll is not an exclusively high altitude/high speed phenomenon, and the A310 is very much a dutch roll prone acft. This was also not nice to see.
I guess lessons will be learned.
For those who in this forum have been insulting the pilot, calling him idiot, irresponsible, unprofessional and all that, beware: you're the next ones in line to break the face, because you need to think you're better than others and that´s not a good sign.
I know the guy that was flying the airplane, a he's a good pilot, as good as anyone else. Portugal is a small country, everybody knows everybody in aviation, and our standards are very homogeneous, there are not so many ways to trail a career in this country. I guess this shows on our safety record.
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact. This surely hasn't gone as planned. I won't make any considerations on height above ground and stuff like that, this was an air show and it seems appropriate to me. But:
1. Since my early fliyng, I was taught to do this maneuver in the following order: first you pull, then you roll. And in this case it was the other way round, rolled then pulled. I don't realy know how close that wingtip was from the ground, but thath's beside the point. And the airplane was left in a low energy condition for a long time during that turn, hanged by its engines (with those great engines it's very easy). I think he was lucky, gladly. It was not nice to watch this situation, althoug the enthusiasts loved it.
2. In one of the other low passes, gear up and flaps up, maybe slats extended, the aicraft entered a strong dutch roll motion, with a side slip beyond what I thing is acceptable for the situation, too much uncoordinated flight for that height in a jetliner. Dutch roll is not an exclusively high altitude/high speed phenomenon, and the A310 is very much a dutch roll prone acft. This was also not nice to see.
I guess lessons will be learned.