Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
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Gentlemen...
xxx
It appears that (as mentioned a few times here) that two different issues are discussed about seniority. I do not oppose seniority, as to the privileges for bidding line schedules, time off, vacations, choice of equipment flown. I am only opposed to upgrade by strict seniority. Besides seniority, there are other standards to be considered when it comes to selection for a first command. I talk about experience standards and ability to complete training succesfully.
xxx
I have to deal with many different facts here in Argentina, such as nepotism, and also "relations" at high government level. As an example, last year, I did receive a personal letter, as flight training manager, from a former president of this nation (we had many presidents in a period of a few months in the period of 1991-1992), the letter requesting that his son, a 737 F/O, be selected for upgrade as captain, in the shortest possible delays. The chief pilot received the same letter, as well as the director of operations. I know this 737 F/O, but I never flew with him as I am not 737 qualified, except that I occasionally instruct in 737 classrooms or simulators, if an instructor is not available for subjects I know.
xxx
The director of operations and the chief pilot asked me (thank you for that) to see if he could qualify as captain, and to give him an evaluation ride in a simulator. I would have gladly "bailed-out" of this diplomatic mission. I also got many reports from the captains he flew with, many were quite negative. So when I was in Miami, instructing in 747 simulators, he "demanded" to be given an evaluation ride the next day, as he had to go back ASAP... I had to juggle my whole 747 training schedule for him...
xxx
We spent 90 minutes in a 737-200 simulator, during which I gave him a basic proficiency check, nothing nasty... holding patterns, steep turns at 45º bank and 250 kts, a ADF approach circle to land. He failed every maneuvers, even by F/O standards. I even suggested he flew in the RHS (seat he is accustomed to) but insisted in occupying the LHS. He flew a good all-engine ILS, and a passing engine-out ILS, but "crashed" during the missed-approach. I stopped there... and had to spend 2 hrs on the phone with Buenos Aires to document my disapproval of his performance.
xxx
His daddy, sent a letter to the chief pilot about me, to the effect that I was not a competent 737 rated instructor... and demanded another evaluation ride... which he got a few weeks later, by a "real 737 instructor", who got the same opinion as mine... so he continues to fly as F/O... and I do believe, will be for long... I suspect that he will be "bypassed" a few times, in the future.
xxx
Thank you Glue Ball about my "seniority" with PanAm... but you know little about the PanAm instructors at the Academy, we were outside of the seniority list, we were assigned "training lines" without bidding... And JFK-GIG-GRU-EZE-SCL was not a training line... generally it was JFK-FRA...
xxx
I was an instructor at the Academy, teaching in classroom and simulators since 1972, F/Es and pilots, 727, 707 and later the 747, when I was given the option of doing the 747, as many instructors went to UAL at the time PanAm sold the Pacific division, then became a line-check pilot and finally a proficiency-check pilot, simulator and line. My PanAm seniority was only sufficient to be a rather junior MIA based 727 captain... I shall also mention that I got nearly 10 years of furlough, in part, thanks to the merge with National (recalled and furlough again 3 months later).
xxx
I have my opinions, right... I hate new generation electronic gadgets and push-button-proficient pilots, who lack airmanship, I hate 747-400s designated "2 pilot aircraft" as 3 are always required for the long sectors they operate, and for me, to upgrade to command, I see that those who qualify are proficient.
xxx
I am flight training manager, and not in a popularity contest. Above all, I try to manage a training department to the best of my abilities, and try to qualify pilots with the highest possible level of training and airmanship. All my "boys" are my friends, I dont want to see them do a CFIT in the Andes. They can come any time to my office, and draw a beer from my little fridge to discuss problems... And if you do not like "old school pilots" and me sharing today's airspace, I am to retire soon when the last 747-200 is gone...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
It appears that (as mentioned a few times here) that two different issues are discussed about seniority. I do not oppose seniority, as to the privileges for bidding line schedules, time off, vacations, choice of equipment flown. I am only opposed to upgrade by strict seniority. Besides seniority, there are other standards to be considered when it comes to selection for a first command. I talk about experience standards and ability to complete training succesfully.
xxx
I have to deal with many different facts here in Argentina, such as nepotism, and also "relations" at high government level. As an example, last year, I did receive a personal letter, as flight training manager, from a former president of this nation (we had many presidents in a period of a few months in the period of 1991-1992), the letter requesting that his son, a 737 F/O, be selected for upgrade as captain, in the shortest possible delays. The chief pilot received the same letter, as well as the director of operations. I know this 737 F/O, but I never flew with him as I am not 737 qualified, except that I occasionally instruct in 737 classrooms or simulators, if an instructor is not available for subjects I know.
xxx
The director of operations and the chief pilot asked me (thank you for that) to see if he could qualify as captain, and to give him an evaluation ride in a simulator. I would have gladly "bailed-out" of this diplomatic mission. I also got many reports from the captains he flew with, many were quite negative. So when I was in Miami, instructing in 747 simulators, he "demanded" to be given an evaluation ride the next day, as he had to go back ASAP... I had to juggle my whole 747 training schedule for him...
xxx
We spent 90 minutes in a 737-200 simulator, during which I gave him a basic proficiency check, nothing nasty... holding patterns, steep turns at 45º bank and 250 kts, a ADF approach circle to land. He failed every maneuvers, even by F/O standards. I even suggested he flew in the RHS (seat he is accustomed to) but insisted in occupying the LHS. He flew a good all-engine ILS, and a passing engine-out ILS, but "crashed" during the missed-approach. I stopped there... and had to spend 2 hrs on the phone with Buenos Aires to document my disapproval of his performance.
xxx
His daddy, sent a letter to the chief pilot about me, to the effect that I was not a competent 737 rated instructor... and demanded another evaluation ride... which he got a few weeks later, by a "real 737 instructor", who got the same opinion as mine... so he continues to fly as F/O... and I do believe, will be for long... I suspect that he will be "bypassed" a few times, in the future.
xxx
Thank you Glue Ball about my "seniority" with PanAm... but you know little about the PanAm instructors at the Academy, we were outside of the seniority list, we were assigned "training lines" without bidding... And JFK-GIG-GRU-EZE-SCL was not a training line... generally it was JFK-FRA...
xxx
I was an instructor at the Academy, teaching in classroom and simulators since 1972, F/Es and pilots, 727, 707 and later the 747, when I was given the option of doing the 747, as many instructors went to UAL at the time PanAm sold the Pacific division, then became a line-check pilot and finally a proficiency-check pilot, simulator and line. My PanAm seniority was only sufficient to be a rather junior MIA based 727 captain... I shall also mention that I got nearly 10 years of furlough, in part, thanks to the merge with National (recalled and furlough again 3 months later).
xxx
I have my opinions, right... I hate new generation electronic gadgets and push-button-proficient pilots, who lack airmanship, I hate 747-400s designated "2 pilot aircraft" as 3 are always required for the long sectors they operate, and for me, to upgrade to command, I see that those who qualify are proficient.
xxx
I am flight training manager, and not in a popularity contest. Above all, I try to manage a training department to the best of my abilities, and try to qualify pilots with the highest possible level of training and airmanship. All my "boys" are my friends, I dont want to see them do a CFIT in the Andes. They can come any time to my office, and draw a beer from my little fridge to discuss problems... And if you do not like "old school pilots" and me sharing today's airspace, I am to retire soon when the last 747-200 is gone...
xxx
Happy contrails
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<They can come any time to my office, and draw a beer from my little fridge to discuss problems..>
we shouldn't promote alcohol use in our profession...I am sure you meant a root beer
we shouldn't promote alcohol use in our profession...I am sure you meant a root beer
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Definitely, Mr. Bomarc
xxx
We do not promote alcoholic beverages within 12 hrs of start of flight duty.
I quote my GOM...
When outside of these limitations, I indulge myself with a beer or two, and red wine for dinner.
In Argentina, root beer is unknown...
What is this...? - Hmmm... I see, USA, got the picture...
xxx
Cheers (just having a glass of wine right now) -
I fly next friday, 0700Z - is it ok, Sir...?
Happy contrails
xxx
We do not promote alcoholic beverages within 12 hrs of start of flight duty.
I quote my GOM...
When outside of these limitations, I indulge myself with a beer or two, and red wine for dinner.
In Argentina, root beer is unknown...
What is this...? - Hmmm... I see, USA, got the picture...
xxx
Cheers (just having a glass of wine right now) -
I fly next friday, 0700Z - is it ok, Sir...?
Happy contrails
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Captain BelArgUSA . . .
. . .The classic 747-200/300s will not be retiring anytime soon; in fact one of the latest editions [s/n 24837/810] a -329SF was delivered to SN (Sabena) in October 1990, long after one of the first -412s [s/n 24063/736] was delivered to SQ (Singapore Airlines) in July 1989!
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Señor Glue Ball -
xxx
I was mentioning the last 200 to be retired from my airline... That is when I retire.
Our two last 747-287 were delivered in 1982. So, 25+ years of service.
xxx
As far as 200/300s you are correct, they were still delivered in 1990/1991.
Just looked on my production list, the last "747 Classic" was s/n 25226, a 747-228F (Air France) but Martinair got it - PH-MCN - delivered 19 SEP 1991.
Many 200/300s will remain active another 10 years...
PanAm's N747PA, the first 747-121 flew until 1995 or so, 25+ yrs career...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I was mentioning the last 200 to be retired from my airline... That is when I retire.
Our two last 747-287 were delivered in 1982. So, 25+ years of service.
xxx
As far as 200/300s you are correct, they were still delivered in 1990/1991.
Just looked on my production list, the last "747 Classic" was s/n 25226, a 747-228F (Air France) but Martinair got it - PH-MCN - delivered 19 SEP 1991.
Many 200/300s will remain active another 10 years...
PanAm's N747PA, the first 747-121 flew until 1995 or so, 25+ yrs career...
xxx
Happy contrails
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BelArg,
You defeat your own arguements. If you are trying to make it a SAFETY thing about promotion, then you have a problem with your training department.
The reality is that you simply use an arbitrary standard, (seniority + x number of hours etc.) for promotion, and then you get to TRY.
The promotion is not automatic at ANY airline (atleast in the USA, though your example of the x president proves quite the opposit problem without seniorit, even if you did block it that one time) , if you feel that the captains are not qualified, then you are argueing about training standards, not seniority.
So you have blown your own arguements out of the water. Unfortunately seniority, though not perfect removes ALL of those outside pressures and makes upgrade to captain simply a test of skills, as it should be, and not a test of skills + political connections, as it absolutely should NOT be.
Cheers
Wino
You defeat your own arguements. If you are trying to make it a SAFETY thing about promotion, then you have a problem with your training department.
The reality is that you simply use an arbitrary standard, (seniority + x number of hours etc.) for promotion, and then you get to TRY.
The promotion is not automatic at ANY airline (atleast in the USA, though your example of the x president proves quite the opposit problem without seniorit, even if you did block it that one time) , if you feel that the captains are not qualified, then you are argueing about training standards, not seniority.
So you have blown your own arguements out of the water. Unfortunately seniority, though not perfect removes ALL of those outside pressures and makes upgrade to captain simply a test of skills, as it should be, and not a test of skills + political connections, as it absolutely should NOT be.
Cheers
Wino
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Psr777
Using seniority in selection for promotion is probably indirect discrimination against women under the sex discrimination legislation brought in 30 years ago. As far as I am aware, no one has brought a case challenging this.
Although we do not yet have any case law to prove one way or the other, my own view is that selection for promotion based on length of service (ie those with the longest service automatically get the first opportunity to be promoted) is probably direct age discrimination under UK law.
It would be a brave pilot who challenged this in the courts. However, case law from other industries might take the matter out of airlines' hands.
RHRP
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Also, for those that think the seniority list is detrimental to t & c... I would suggest that they look at the merchant marine, which has a single list, and has been wiped out.
Cheers
Wino
Cheers
Wino
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DEC
Shall I also mention, that many major world carriers, such as ANA, JAL, SIA, KAL, MAS, Asiana, Cathay, Emirates, all rely on a large proportion of direct entry captains.
When you employ DECs instead of upgrading FO:s with at least as much, or more experience/qualification as DECs, to save money you are on the wrong path.
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There are those who have tried to stress the fact that promotion based on seniority is not the norm. You have to pass the test. The time when you are assessed is based upon length of service (seniority) and required qualifications. Some do not seem to have grasped this. Those qualifications will include such matters as total hours, good enough standards at bi-annual checks, soound attitude in crew/pax management issues, stable personality etc. The company may want a sign that you have an interest in remaining with the company after your promotion.
In any field there will always be those who are average (good enough), average +, very good and excellent. Just look at sport to see the comparisons. Not everybody wins the tennis tournaments or golf; (Kornokova never won any but made a fortune); not every footballer is a star; but then a team needs a good solid longterm consistant performer, rather than a flash in the pan prima doona.
Thus, it must be assumed that all pilots are competant as they pass their checks. You now have the recognised excellent pilot who is an F/O. Older than his years; will make an excellent captain. Do they deserve promotion earlier than the plodder who is dependable, longtern career minded with your company, steady eddy rather than Top Gun? IMHO, no. How is this decision arrived at? Seniority and satisfying the qualifications to deserve assessment. Still got to jump through the hoops.
But I agree with the attitude that seniority sucks when it is always used so the fat cats get fatter by always having the biggest piece of pie. Seniority usually brings higher salaries. That should be enough.
Spreading the argument slightly: it is archaic that larger a/c attract larger salaries. A jet a/c is a jet a/c. Within the same company salary should be by rank and length of service, not type a/c. The salaries come from the overall profits/income of the whole airline, not fleet by fleet. Guys flying short-haul are more productive in pax carried per month than long-haul guys. Guess what. Seniority allows the top dogs to bid on the highest salary fleets. Why? To me it has always seemd odd that the oldest pilots want to be on the most tiring of fleets. Generally (IMHO) longhaul is a younger guy's world. Could it be that the salary is higher and thus the final salary pension is also higher. Fat Cats again. You also get the nonsense that flight managers need to be training captains - another bit of B.S.- and then their salary has to be higher than T.C's because they are managers. Guess what; in some airlines seniority is used to decide who becomes a T.C. Even more B.S and nepotism at its worse.
There has to be a system to decide who, out of a pool of equally qualified people, gets the first chance to prove they are suitable for promotion. Once that choice has been made it is necessary for the candidate to prove they are capable. There merit enters the equation. Seems fair all round.
In any field there will always be those who are average (good enough), average +, very good and excellent. Just look at sport to see the comparisons. Not everybody wins the tennis tournaments or golf; (Kornokova never won any but made a fortune); not every footballer is a star; but then a team needs a good solid longterm consistant performer, rather than a flash in the pan prima doona.
Thus, it must be assumed that all pilots are competant as they pass their checks. You now have the recognised excellent pilot who is an F/O. Older than his years; will make an excellent captain. Do they deserve promotion earlier than the plodder who is dependable, longtern career minded with your company, steady eddy rather than Top Gun? IMHO, no. How is this decision arrived at? Seniority and satisfying the qualifications to deserve assessment. Still got to jump through the hoops.
But I agree with the attitude that seniority sucks when it is always used so the fat cats get fatter by always having the biggest piece of pie. Seniority usually brings higher salaries. That should be enough.
Spreading the argument slightly: it is archaic that larger a/c attract larger salaries. A jet a/c is a jet a/c. Within the same company salary should be by rank and length of service, not type a/c. The salaries come from the overall profits/income of the whole airline, not fleet by fleet. Guys flying short-haul are more productive in pax carried per month than long-haul guys. Guess what. Seniority allows the top dogs to bid on the highest salary fleets. Why? To me it has always seemd odd that the oldest pilots want to be on the most tiring of fleets. Generally (IMHO) longhaul is a younger guy's world. Could it be that the salary is higher and thus the final salary pension is also higher. Fat Cats again. You also get the nonsense that flight managers need to be training captains - another bit of B.S.- and then their salary has to be higher than T.C's because they are managers. Guess what; in some airlines seniority is used to decide who becomes a T.C. Even more B.S and nepotism at its worse.
There has to be a system to decide who, out of a pool of equally qualified people, gets the first chance to prove they are suitable for promotion. Once that choice has been made it is necessary for the candidate to prove they are capable. There merit enters the equation. Seems fair all round.
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Any antipodeans reading will fondly remember the early days of Freedom Air in early 90's when all F/O's were told they were eligible for the next 737command slot and were then told to apply for the job with the renumeration they would expect. Obviously some wanted the command to get elsewhere while others wanted to stay a while.
It wasn't pretty, best and winning offer was under 20K sterling. Fortunately the process didn't transfer into Air NZ.
It wasn't pretty, best and winning offer was under 20K sterling. Fortunately the process didn't transfer into Air NZ.
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A couple of thoughts:
Could seniority be defined by the time that you've actually spent in aviation flying actively ?
What about those who were forced (by Force Majeure) to change airlines and hit the bottom of the infamous seniority list every time and started patiently all over again ?
I strongly believe that command should be given to the most experienced F/Os in terms of hours, variety of flying duties, route structure, number of airfields, weather conditions, they've been through, and number of aircraft types flown.
Dump the seniority. I've personally had it, I want my command after dragging my arse in the right hand seat around the planet for 16 years, mostly flying for majors !
Could seniority be defined by the time that you've actually spent in aviation flying actively ?
What about those who were forced (by Force Majeure) to change airlines and hit the bottom of the infamous seniority list every time and started patiently all over again ?
I strongly believe that command should be given to the most experienced F/Os in terms of hours, variety of flying duties, route structure, number of airfields, weather conditions, they've been through, and number of aircraft types flown.
Dump the seniority. I've personally had it, I want my command after dragging my arse in the right hand seat around the planet for 16 years, mostly flying for majors !
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To Wino...
xxx
I know you do not approve of my arguments. You are in USA, a completely different airline environment than mine. I was 1969 to 1991 with PanAm, an ALPA carrier and I had my ALPA card... You appear to be a "Union man"... I was, until 1991... Now I am overseas, completing 38/39 years of a career as pilot... and the USA airline industry and unions, I will not tell you say here my opinion about them, as I am a polite person.
xxx
When PanAm busted, I got an offer as F/E 727 with Delta, for new hire wages, ($1,200/mo. gross - how gross!) yet having 1,000 hrs PIC on 727, 6,000 hrs PIC on 707/DC8 and 1,000 hrs PIC on 747, and ALPA member since 1969... I slammed the door on the USA airline industry, and ALPA as well...
xxx
Here in Argentina, our unions are no better, but one thing, they help pilots of bankrupt air carriers. A few years ago, LAPA, a 737 domestic carrier, bit the dust. We have basically hired out of their defunct seniority, into our airline. Those pilot, who were 737 captains, after completing 12 months with us, are offered upgrade to 737 captain with us, in priority... the union goons decided all of that... not necessarily me... By the way, their date of hire (with us) will be their seniority date, and they later will be bypassed by other more senior pilots who will upgrade.
xxx
We wanted (and unions too) to preserve the status of these experienced 737 pilots, and offer them the decency to continue their lives, and not be obliged to go overseas... By the way, our new-hire wages are decent ($4,000/mo) for a country, you, in USA, define as a third world nation. Not bad for a place where a filet mignon is $12.oo...
xxx
Delta never offered us PanAmigos the consideration (nor did ALPA) that the Argentines give their airline pilots. And same happened to the pilots of Braniff, and Eastern...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I know you do not approve of my arguments. You are in USA, a completely different airline environment than mine. I was 1969 to 1991 with PanAm, an ALPA carrier and I had my ALPA card... You appear to be a "Union man"... I was, until 1991... Now I am overseas, completing 38/39 years of a career as pilot... and the USA airline industry and unions, I will not tell you say here my opinion about them, as I am a polite person.
xxx
When PanAm busted, I got an offer as F/E 727 with Delta, for new hire wages, ($1,200/mo. gross - how gross!) yet having 1,000 hrs PIC on 727, 6,000 hrs PIC on 707/DC8 and 1,000 hrs PIC on 747, and ALPA member since 1969... I slammed the door on the USA airline industry, and ALPA as well...
xxx
Here in Argentina, our unions are no better, but one thing, they help pilots of bankrupt air carriers. A few years ago, LAPA, a 737 domestic carrier, bit the dust. We have basically hired out of their defunct seniority, into our airline. Those pilot, who were 737 captains, after completing 12 months with us, are offered upgrade to 737 captain with us, in priority... the union goons decided all of that... not necessarily me... By the way, their date of hire (with us) will be their seniority date, and they later will be bypassed by other more senior pilots who will upgrade.
xxx
We wanted (and unions too) to preserve the status of these experienced 737 pilots, and offer them the decency to continue their lives, and not be obliged to go overseas... By the way, our new-hire wages are decent ($4,000/mo) for a country, you, in USA, define as a third world nation. Not bad for a place where a filet mignon is $12.oo...
xxx
Delta never offered us PanAmigos the consideration (nor did ALPA) that the Argentines give their airline pilots. And same happened to the pilots of Braniff, and Eastern...
xxx
Happy contrails
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sadly, there is a terrible lesson to be learned.
if you live by seniority, and your airline goes tango uniform, you lose by seniority.
if you are senior, you can continue your career by just barely passing every test/checkride you ever have.
if you are junior and excel, you do nothing to line your own pockets (though you have earned my respect).
USA ALPA has largely forgotten any semblance of loyalty to pilots who paid dues for 20 years...
USA ALPA actually pays their administrative help MORE than a 737 pilot at many domestic airlines.
TO the PanAmigos...I am sorry you got screwed over. I really am. There is no excuse except greed.
and we, as a profession, are "greeding" ourselves out of existence.
any airline in the USA that really promotes only based on MERIT, please tell us who you are.
ALPA will soon be de-certified at my airline I think and hope.
You can't change the rules once the game has started....but alpa did
if you live by seniority, and your airline goes tango uniform, you lose by seniority.
if you are senior, you can continue your career by just barely passing every test/checkride you ever have.
if you are junior and excel, you do nothing to line your own pockets (though you have earned my respect).
USA ALPA has largely forgotten any semblance of loyalty to pilots who paid dues for 20 years...
USA ALPA actually pays their administrative help MORE than a 737 pilot at many domestic airlines.
TO the PanAmigos...I am sorry you got screwed over. I really am. There is no excuse except greed.
and we, as a profession, are "greeding" ourselves out of existence.
any airline in the USA that really promotes only based on MERIT, please tell us who you are.
ALPA will soon be de-certified at my airline I think and hope.
You can't change the rules once the game has started....but alpa did
Seems that everyone thinks they are a rising star. What happens if you are not as good as you think you are, and start getting bypassed by a new pilot that management think is better than you? (Flew on the same squadron,went to same school,Father is Chief Pilot, etc)
Seeing how things work in my company, I wouldn't trust management to do the right thing.
Seeing how things work in my company, I wouldn't trust management to do the right thing.
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Seniority Rules!
Stops thrusting of the "management rectum" to get Commands, Trips, Leave, etc ,etc ,etc!
Additionally, the system works well and enables the smooth, stable and transparent running of the airline
Stops thrusting of the "management rectum" to get Commands, Trips, Leave, etc ,etc ,etc!
Additionally, the system works well and enables the smooth, stable and transparent running of the airline
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This thread really demonstrates the lack of trust between pilots and management.
No wonder things are in such a state when there is such distrust, especially when you consider everyone is supposedly working towards the same goal. ie the growth and success of a company.
Most of the comments here seem to be that having a seniority system is a protection against poor practise and nepotism. Can it really be that bad? I don't think it is. There may well be examples, but how many of us here have got jobs because a "friend" got your CV to the top of a pile, or harangued a recruiter on your behalf?
Every job I've ever had has been the result of a "contact" and it is fairly common place in all industries.
If you've ever got a job in that way, it is a bit rich to start shouting that nepotism is wrong. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind.
No wonder things are in such a state when there is such distrust, especially when you consider everyone is supposedly working towards the same goal. ie the growth and success of a company.
Most of the comments here seem to be that having a seniority system is a protection against poor practise and nepotism. Can it really be that bad? I don't think it is. There may well be examples, but how many of us here have got jobs because a "friend" got your CV to the top of a pile, or harangued a recruiter on your behalf?
Every job I've ever had has been the result of a "contact" and it is fairly common place in all industries.
If you've ever got a job in that way, it is a bit rich to start shouting that nepotism is wrong. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind.
Every job I've ever had has been the result of a "contact" and it is fairly common place in all industries.
If you've ever got a job in that way, it is a bit rich to start shouting that nepotism is wrong.
If you've ever got a job in that way, it is a bit rich to start shouting that nepotism is wrong.
Do know a guy who worked for a Gulf airline in the 80s who flogged his log a bit after leaving his previous outfit where daddy was a wheel - If he's reading this; Yes we did know about you
Apart from the RAF, I've spent the majority of my flying career in a seniority system and it seemed to work very well. As has already been stated: Just because you get to the top of the FO heap doesn't guarantee a command but it should guarantee command assessment and/or a command course.