Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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Paarmo, do you really believe that a terrorist will pressure a pilot to smuggle a swiss army knife for them? Besides, you can steal knifes in the restaurant kitchens inside the security zone, or why not pressure a cock in said restaurant to give them a knife?
It´s not unthinkable that terrorists will pressure a pilot to smuggle a pistol or a bomb (not liquid, they can bring that in themselves, deciliter by deciliter) so then search pilots for bombs, pistols and such, not nailclippers, multi tools, water, etc.
And Paarmo, what about the wine bottles aboard aircraft? The bottles are made of glas and a terrorist can easily take one, brake it and have a leathal weapon.
Anyone else heard of the egyptian captain who killed a hijacker with a fire axe?
It´s not unthinkable that terrorists will pressure a pilot to smuggle a pistol or a bomb (not liquid, they can bring that in themselves, deciliter by deciliter) so then search pilots for bombs, pistols and such, not nailclippers, multi tools, water, etc.
And Paarmo, what about the wine bottles aboard aircraft? The bottles are made of glas and a terrorist can easily take one, brake it and have a leathal weapon.
Anyone else heard of the egyptian captain who killed a hijacker with a fire axe?
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Paarmo, you really are a muppet.
How is a pilot sitting at the controls going to get his counter attack in first if I decide to take the axe to the back of his head or the controls? If you think aircrew are a risk and have to be screened then you must realise that they are just as big a risk using the axe or even THE AIRCRAFT ITSELF
. Does this help put the security jobsworth who confiscates the bottle of Ribena into perspective?
Having studied ancient history I'm pretty sure that when the Romans et al were taking each other on they were armed with something a bit bigger than a swiss army knife and tended to be facing each other during the fight
S78
How is a pilot sitting at the controls going to get his counter attack in first if I decide to take the axe to the back of his head or the controls? If you think aircrew are a risk and have to be screened then you must realise that they are just as big a risk using the axe or even THE AIRCRAFT ITSELF
. Does this help put the security jobsworth who confiscates the bottle of Ribena into perspective? Having studied ancient history I'm pretty sure that when the Romans et al were taking each other on they were armed with something a bit bigger than a swiss army knife and tended to be facing each other during the fight
S78
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S78 is correct - perspective is everything here.
What are security checking when they check your passport/paperwork then?
That it's you?
How does that work?
They are not given forgery training or rudimentary training on basic credibility based questioning techniques in order to trip up the person carrying documentation they should not have. They are just barrier technicians with respect to them.
More farce.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if they were vetted properly to SC/DV level, I suspect a few would not be at work the following Monday or, rather, the 6 months after the vetting was done because that's how long it takes to get a result.
I might have a bit more faith in the system then because I would know they were cleared to read up on what the 'threat' really is and how they have a part in countering it.
Cost I guess would mitigate against this.
What are security checking when they check your passport/paperwork then?
That it's you?
How does that work?
They are not given forgery training or rudimentary training on basic credibility based questioning techniques in order to trip up the person carrying documentation they should not have. They are just barrier technicians with respect to them.
More farce.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if they were vetted properly to SC/DV level, I suspect a few would not be at work the following Monday or, rather, the 6 months after the vetting was done because that's how long it takes to get a result.
I might have a bit more faith in the system then because I would know they were cleared to read up on what the 'threat' really is and how they have a part in countering it.
Cost I guess would mitigate against this.
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Paarmo
I find it interesting that you have been unable to present a relevant counter-argument to the presentations made by active air-crew. You have failed to tell us your interest in this subject and failed to develop your own argument, except for driving the same statements round in circles.
My friend's medication was (and continues to be) prescribed in full knowledge of his AME, and will continue to be for the remainder of his career. It comes in a 20ml bottle, complete with medical labeling stating his name and address.
Several posts ago I put it to you to justify such preposterous security measures in the face of aircrew having airside access to all the lethal weapons that a radical could imagine in his wildest dreams. You have failed to substantiate your own arguments in the face of this.
Would you kindly tell us exactly what security you propose in your own idealistic utopian world? And will you then be so kind as to respond to being challenged, in order to see if your utopia really does hold water.
My friend's medication was (and continues to be) prescribed in full knowledge of his AME, and will continue to be for the remainder of his career. It comes in a 20ml bottle, complete with medical labeling stating his name and address.
Several posts ago I put it to you to justify such preposterous security measures in the face of aircrew having airside access to all the lethal weapons that a radical could imagine in his wildest dreams. You have failed to substantiate your own arguments in the face of this.
Would you kindly tell us exactly what security you propose in your own idealistic utopian world? And will you then be so kind as to respond to being challenged, in order to see if your utopia really does hold water.
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I think what´s happening is, that they (security) want a free ride and, are trying to get into the flight deck just to see if, we do our job and, that we are not a liability to the aircraft?!!! In fact the whole problem with this security topic are the crew and their nail clippers!!! Swiss knife more leathal than a grade 3 axe, please, give me a break!!!
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Professional pilots?
I have read with some disbelief the pages on this forum. We have pilots who cannot seemingly be bothered to check what documentation is required to transit security at new airports. A pilot who had a so called medicine confiscated because either he couldn't be bothered or couldn't understand the rules on medicines and security checkpoints. A pilot who circumvents security by freezing liquid before taking it through security and one who takes the huff and presents security with that poxy axe and declares that the aeroplane cannot fly without an axe on board( God help us ). We then have other cabin staff who claim that they are about to put used tampons and urine in their carry on bags for security to find and handle.
The general tenor of these postings is that you view security staff as something which you have to scrape off your shoe. If that is the way you appear to security staff is it any wonder that they single you out and make life as difficult as possible for you.They are only human after all.
Remember the story of the journalist in the late 1960's who was at Cape Canaveral. He went to the toilet and found a man in there with a mop and bucket. "Hello what are you doing?" he said. The reply came " I am helping to put a man on the moon"
You would do well to remember that the next time you denigrate someone who you assume is less intelligent , less motivated and less well paid than yourselves.
The general tenor of these postings is that you view security staff as something which you have to scrape off your shoe. If that is the way you appear to security staff is it any wonder that they single you out and make life as difficult as possible for you.They are only human after all.
Remember the story of the journalist in the late 1960's who was at Cape Canaveral. He went to the toilet and found a man in there with a mop and bucket. "Hello what are you doing?" he said. The reply came " I am helping to put a man on the moon"
You would do well to remember that the next time you denigrate someone who you assume is less intelligent , less motivated and less well paid than yourselves.
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Pilots tend to be cogent, considered, eloquent, measured and fairly passionate about their chosen professions. One does not grace the front seats of a modern jet airliner without a considerable degree of resolve, patience and determination.
Equally pilots tend to to be fairly moderate in their views until they, as a group, witness procedures or events which are manifestly unjust or simply downright stupid: we don't suffer fools gladly.
Day to day security for crew has become a farce: we are all rigorously examined prior to the issue of an airside pass and hold licences issued by the Authority often years / decades ago. Many of us are ex- military and held security clearances which allowed us access to all manner of military establishments within NATO.
We control large flying bombs but some YTS, 2 day trained, off the street acned youth can demand that we remove shoes, clothing and empty our flightbags just in case we may have been compromised by some terrorist. We have our drinks confiscated, yoghurts binned and after shaves recycled.
We see crates of water bottles being taken through for sale airside: trucks allowed airside to deliver equipment and the ubiquitous DB9 set up in the departure lounge to encourage sales of raffle tickets. No doubt every bottle has been drop tested, and the DB9 has been stripped down and checked panel by panel, the trucks are taken apart and re-assembled.
The issue is consistency: if aircrew are going to be subjected to scrutiny then you have to be equitable: do the armed police, the trucks coming through, check every bottle of water,canned drink. Ban alcohol as it is flammable, ban matches and lighters from duty free, hairspray, perfume etc etc
Until that becomes the norm aircrew are being discriminated against, like it or not.
Equally pilots tend to to be fairly moderate in their views until they, as a group, witness procedures or events which are manifestly unjust or simply downright stupid: we don't suffer fools gladly.
Day to day security for crew has become a farce: we are all rigorously examined prior to the issue of an airside pass and hold licences issued by the Authority often years / decades ago. Many of us are ex- military and held security clearances which allowed us access to all manner of military establishments within NATO.
We control large flying bombs but some YTS, 2 day trained, off the street acned youth can demand that we remove shoes, clothing and empty our flightbags just in case we may have been compromised by some terrorist. We have our drinks confiscated, yoghurts binned and after shaves recycled.
We see crates of water bottles being taken through for sale airside: trucks allowed airside to deliver equipment and the ubiquitous DB9 set up in the departure lounge to encourage sales of raffle tickets. No doubt every bottle has been drop tested, and the DB9 has been stripped down and checked panel by panel, the trucks are taken apart and re-assembled.
The issue is consistency: if aircrew are going to be subjected to scrutiny then you have to be equitable: do the armed police, the trucks coming through, check every bottle of water,canned drink. Ban alcohol as it is flammable, ban matches and lighters from duty free, hairspray, perfume etc etc
Until that becomes the norm aircrew are being discriminated against, like it or not.
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Ladusvala
Ladusvala, it is not worth your time reiterating your questions to such types as paarmo - here we have an individual who has a water-tight argument in the face of compelling evidence against.
The theory is simple - if you cant rebut an argument then simply ignore it and continue to iterate that your own evidently flawed proclamations are incontrovertibly and undeniably correct.
It is evident to all FLIGHT DECK CREW (is this not a FLIGHT DECK forum?), that Paarmo has ZERO relevant experience and seems equally incapable of providing any reason (e.g. occupation/background) as to his authority to comment on this subject.
On a side note though, it is very entertaining to watch someone with an undeniably weak argument and knowledge base, squirm and fail in the light of those who are in the know.
RIX
The theory is simple - if you cant rebut an argument then simply ignore it and continue to iterate that your own evidently flawed proclamations are incontrovertibly and undeniably correct.
It is evident to all FLIGHT DECK CREW (is this not a FLIGHT DECK forum?), that Paarmo has ZERO relevant experience and seems equally incapable of providing any reason (e.g. occupation/background) as to his authority to comment on this subject.
On a side note though, it is very entertaining to watch someone with an undeniably weak argument and knowledge base, squirm and fail in the light of those who are in the know.
RIX
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Before I start this post I will state I do not work for any security firm, any airline or any airport authority...however I do work airside, have a full all zone pass and pass through the security channel 5/6 up to 10 times a day.
Therefore I can be searched or not depending on if the alarm goes off, If I wasn't searched i could bring anything through to departures...out onto the apron and potentially onto the aircraft if I was a terrorist or someone just with a grudge.
I believe (although sometimes they are an irritant) security do a thankless but exceptionally important job and they are after all just following instructions set down (rightly or wrongly) by the government and also world security regulations.
If you treat people everywhere how you would like you and your family to be treated you get much further than being arrogant and rude (yes I have seen how some air crew treat people who don't work for an airline....and you should be ashamed!!)
Suck it up...don't bring products you KNOW are banned, don't get all shirty when you are asked to remove shoes/belts etc, just smile and get on with it for goodness sake...isn't life too short to get so wound up about things that can be ignored so easily.
Happy travelling
Therefore I can be searched or not depending on if the alarm goes off, If I wasn't searched i could bring anything through to departures...out onto the apron and potentially onto the aircraft if I was a terrorist or someone just with a grudge.
I believe (although sometimes they are an irritant) security do a thankless but exceptionally important job and they are after all just following instructions set down (rightly or wrongly) by the government and also world security regulations.
If you treat people everywhere how you would like you and your family to be treated you get much further than being arrogant and rude (yes I have seen how some air crew treat people who don't work for an airline....and you should be ashamed!!)
Suck it up...don't bring products you KNOW are banned, don't get all shirty when you are asked to remove shoes/belts etc, just smile and get on with it for goodness sake...isn't life too short to get so wound up about things that can be ignored so easily.
Happy travelling
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I remember in the mid-eighties well before this 9/11 security hysteria, there were trained professional Airport Police with steely eyes better than your best x-ray machine or metal detector; If something looked suspicious they would put you through the same type of examining that everyone without exception has to face nowadays, but it was a rare occasion all in all. I believe those guys had a lot of training and were backed with years of experience, and that surely costs money.
In the age of fast food, you also have fast security: cheap half-baked employee ready to be used (and discarded) at will. Airport Authorities are like “I’ll have a dozen of those and… a couple of that ones too” “would you like coriander sauce with your order sir?”
This is completely irrational… are people stripped searched before boarding a train, a bus or the tube? Yet everyone still take the risk of travelling on them, day in day out. This logic is inverted as it would make all the sense if it was the actual Capt of a flight to demand that his PAX are screened for safety reasons, not the other way around.
GD&L
In the age of fast food, you also have fast security: cheap half-baked employee ready to be used (and discarded) at will. Airport Authorities are like “I’ll have a dozen of those and… a couple of that ones too” “would you like coriander sauce with your order sir?”
This is completely irrational… are people stripped searched before boarding a train, a bus or the tube? Yet everyone still take the risk of travelling on them, day in day out. This logic is inverted as it would make all the sense if it was the actual Capt of a flight to demand that his PAX are screened for safety reasons, not the other way around.
GD&L
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Been there, done that
Jess,
I've tried being nice to security -as have my colleagues - it doesn't work.
if you try to talk to them all you get is a grunt. Give them all hoodies and they wouldn't look out of place on street corners - which is probably where they would rather be, instead of doing a job which they only took because the DSS were going to cut their benefits
S78
I've tried being nice to security -as have my colleagues - it doesn't work.
if you try to talk to them all you get is a grunt. Give them all hoodies and they wouldn't look out of place on street corners - which is probably where they would rather be, instead of doing a job which they only took because the DSS were going to cut their benefits
S78
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When the suicide attacker dressed as a policeman enters Terminal 5, lots of open space and clear lines of fire, he will let rip with his automatic, rapid fire machine gun and kill 50 or more people. This will be considered a result by the mad Mullahs and K'uran waving fanatics. (peace to all true Muslims)
The aircrew who have had to remove their shoes and belts will then be subjected to even more stringent checks, to make sure it never happens again.
Logical schmogical Home Office farcical.
The present system of aircrew screening is a complete farce, wasting space, wasting money, wasting time. All led by Ministerial and Home Office idiots who are more fond of fruitless posturing, political infighting and the preservation of their inane and boring jobs.
As a result, we all lose out and people will continue to die.
I can't bring my car to the terminal to drop off my family but a terrorist in a taxi has unlimited access to the space in front of the building.
Delivery trucks are airside by the thousand every day, all of them thoroughly searched of course.
Just where do they think the threat is coming from?
Go figure.
The aircrew who have had to remove their shoes and belts will then be subjected to even more stringent checks, to make sure it never happens again.
Logical schmogical Home Office farcical.
The present system of aircrew screening is a complete farce, wasting space, wasting money, wasting time. All led by Ministerial and Home Office idiots who are more fond of fruitless posturing, political infighting and the preservation of their inane and boring jobs.
As a result, we all lose out and people will continue to die.
I can't bring my car to the terminal to drop off my family but a terrorist in a taxi has unlimited access to the space in front of the building.
Delivery trucks are airside by the thousand every day, all of them thoroughly searched of course.
Just where do they think the threat is coming from?
Go figure.
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I see everyone against my point of view is studiously ignoring the lack of professionalism of some of the contributors to this forum.
You do seem full of spurious scenarios though.
Please face facts. The CAA regulations are there to be followed at the moment and whether anyone likes it or not they are all subject to them when you access a secure area of the airport.If they change in the future then so be it but please do not try and tell me that showing correct paperwok and being searched once a day is causing you all to have mental breakdowns.
Although some of you may be special and very professional you cannot vouch for everyone who is a member of aircrew. Remember the regulations are there to protect all people regardless of their views even me.
You do seem full of spurious scenarios though.
Please face facts. The CAA regulations are there to be followed at the moment and whether anyone likes it or not they are all subject to them when you access a secure area of the airport.If they change in the future then so be it but please do not try and tell me that showing correct paperwok and being searched once a day is causing you all to have mental breakdowns.
Although some of you may be special and very professional you cannot vouch for everyone who is a member of aircrew. Remember the regulations are there to protect all people regardless of their views even me.
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Regulations?
For what it's worth, here is a letter dated 12/5/08 to the New Zealand Herald which appears in today's Private Eye:
S
Sir, My brother-in-law went through security at Auckland domestic airport, and witnessed a passenger having to fish out her nail scissors from her handbag and leave them behind. He passed through security, then boarded his plane.
After being seated he realised that he could smell petrol. He knew that he shouldn’t be able to smell petrol on a plane, because planes don’t use petrol. The smell got worse, and eventually he attracted the attention of one of the flight attendants, who started to look around to see where it was coming from. After a short search of the overhead compartments, the attendant found a chainsaw in a bag that was leaking petrol into the compartment.
The plane was delayed while the owner was identified, and the chainsaw was removed and put with the main luggage. The owner of the chainsaw said security had stopped him and asked him about it, but had let it through because it wasn’t one of the things on their list to confiscate.
After being seated he realised that he could smell petrol. He knew that he shouldn’t be able to smell petrol on a plane, because planes don’t use petrol. The smell got worse, and eventually he attracted the attention of one of the flight attendants, who started to look around to see where it was coming from. After a short search of the overhead compartments, the attendant found a chainsaw in a bag that was leaking petrol into the compartment.
The plane was delayed while the owner was identified, and the chainsaw was removed and put with the main luggage. The owner of the chainsaw said security had stopped him and asked him about it, but had let it through because it wasn’t one of the things on their list to confiscate.
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Good research S78.
After consultation with the Management in a constructive and reasonable manner the system you will now find is much better.
It's no good throwing tantrums every time something is not as you wish. Learn who to approach and then do so in a reasonable and constructive manner and you will be amazed by the results. Do not be put off by rejection of your arguments and persevere rather than flying into a rage because someone does not immediately see your point of view.
Shame really because I thought that pilots would have had the tenacity of purpose to follow something through rather than throwing in the towel and lashing out at all and sundry.
After all this is a debating forum and if both sides of an argument are not put forward it becomes a back slapping exercise which nobody wants to read or take part in.
Ah well back to the garden!!!!
After consultation with the Management in a constructive and reasonable manner the system you will now find is much better.
It's no good throwing tantrums every time something is not as you wish. Learn who to approach and then do so in a reasonable and constructive manner and you will be amazed by the results. Do not be put off by rejection of your arguments and persevere rather than flying into a rage because someone does not immediately see your point of view.
Shame really because I thought that pilots would have had the tenacity of purpose to follow something through rather than throwing in the towel and lashing out at all and sundry.
After all this is a debating forum and if both sides of an argument are not put forward it becomes a back slapping exercise which nobody wants to read or take part in.
Ah well back to the garden!!!!
Last edited by paarmo; 9th Jul 2008 at 12:59. Reason: spelling
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I should have targeted paarmo as well as rsuggitt in my last post. paarmo is obviously 'one of them' too whilst I still maintain that rsuggitt is 'one of them' also despite his stout denials.
Ah well, remember what I said guys - a simple day of protest. That's all it takes to draw full attention to this curse and bring things to a head.
Go for it.
I hope you can take the time to read this:
Mass murder in the skies: was the plot feasible? | The Register
It's an interesting take on the current situation albeit a couple of years old. Who's kidding who do you think?
RIX: do you really think paarmo is a poli? If so, his input to this forum would fit the profile
Ah well, remember what I said guys - a simple day of protest. That's all it takes to draw full attention to this curse and bring things to a head.
Go for it.
I hope you can take the time to read this:
Mass murder in the skies: was the plot feasible? | The Register
It's an interesting take on the current situation albeit a couple of years old. Who's kidding who do you think?
RIX: do you really think paarmo is a poli? If so, his input to this forum would fit the profile
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Xeque
Thanks, an informative article! I hope Paarmo takes the time to read that write-up - Interesting indeed! I also hope he takes the time to answer ANY of my questions. I dont hold much hope of either happening.
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"I still maintain that rsuggitt is 'one of them' also despite his stout denials."
You're still wrong, sunbeam.
I'm just a member of the travelling public. One who wants to stay safe. One who would like the pilot of his plane to be cool, calm and professional. These are things that are significantly lacking from many posts on this thread.
While it has been pointed out that this section of the forum is for airline staff only, let me point out to you that it is not presently restricted or secured, so the entire internet world can read it. Some of you are not doing yourselves any favours by what you say here.
You're still wrong, sunbeam.
I'm just a member of the travelling public. One who wants to stay safe. One who would like the pilot of his plane to be cool, calm and professional. These are things that are significantly lacking from many posts on this thread.
While it has been pointed out that this section of the forum is for airline staff only, let me point out to you that it is not presently restricted or secured, so the entire internet world can read it. Some of you are not doing yourselves any favours by what you say here.
Avoid imitations
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I think the point has been missed by at least one poster here. Recent editions of CHIRP magazine have shown that security staff imposed aircrew stress is a real day to day flight safety issue, not just something dreamed up by the over-emotional.
The real next threat will not come through a security gate. That's old hat, out of date. The security service is behind the drag curve. The present security procedures are borne out of an almost hysterical government response caused by media sensationalism.
Anyone working airside could pick fault in security procedures, see loopholes.
For example, "Restricted Area 157" over London was put in place after 9/11 and it remains to this day. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever and in some circumstances causes a flight safety hazard. It appears to be there only so that politicians and senior police "experts" can say that something was done.
I fly an aircraft that could easily cause untold damage, despite this shallow, nugatory veneer of security we suffer at the behest of the ignorant. Getting me to remove my belt and shoes so a bell doesn't ding changes nothing.
The real next threat will not come through a security gate. That's old hat, out of date. The security service is behind the drag curve. The present security procedures are borne out of an almost hysterical government response caused by media sensationalism.
Anyone working airside could pick fault in security procedures, see loopholes.
For example, "Restricted Area 157" over London was put in place after 9/11 and it remains to this day. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever and in some circumstances causes a flight safety hazard. It appears to be there only so that politicians and senior police "experts" can say that something was done.
I fly an aircraft that could easily cause untold damage, despite this shallow, nugatory veneer of security we suffer at the behest of the ignorant. Getting me to remove my belt and shoes so a bell doesn't ding changes nothing.