Spanish ATC
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Tubby,
I assume you don't speak spanish yet you had a mental picture of what was going on by listening to the radio...and you would have done a better job. Perhaps the controller was just acomodating pilot's request to fly around the wx? I do not know. Yes maybe he was screwing up. After all, he was a lousy spanish not a god gifted "north european"...
A.
I assume you don't speak spanish yet you had a mental picture of what was going on by listening to the radio...and you would have done a better job. Perhaps the controller was just acomodating pilot's request to fly around the wx? I do not know. Yes maybe he was screwing up. After all, he was a lousy spanish not a god gifted "north european"...
A.
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Hi everyone,
An spanish ATC student here with a question for the pilots.
I have seen many of you complaining about being vectored or descended below MSA but... do you carry MVA Charts with you? because those altitudes are the ones we must respect at all times when vectoring traffic and they differ from the MSAs available in the approach, SID and STAR charts, at least the ones our AIP publishes.
Thanks in advance!
An spanish ATC student here with a question for the pilots.
I have seen many of you complaining about being vectored or descended below MSA but... do you carry MVA Charts with you? because those altitudes are the ones we must respect at all times when vectoring traffic and they differ from the MSAs available in the approach, SID and STAR charts, at least the ones our AIP publishes.
Thanks in advance!
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do you carry MVA Charts with you? because those altitudes are the ones we must respect at all times when vectoring traffic and they differ from the MSAs available in the approach, SID and STAR charts, at least the ones our AIP publishes
aaesteve, good luck with your training, please bear in mind that we aren't moaning just for the sake of it......many of my colleagues genuinely feel that certain Spanish ATC standards can be dangerous
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aaesteve, good luck with your training, please bear in mind that we aren't moaning just for the sake of it......many of my colleagues genuinely feel that certain Spanish ATC standards can be dangerous
ThereĦs little I can say in this discussion since most of my experience comes from the simulator. All I can say is the level of proficiency in English of my classmates is quite good (more than the level 4 required) and that most of us feel that everything would be easier if we only had to use English but unfortunately that is impossible in Spain right now. Many VFR pilots and most of the ground personnel would have no situational awareness whatsoever.
C U
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Hi aaesteve.
An interesting point about the VFR pilots losing situational awareness but perhaps it might be better for them to be out of the loop (they can see and avoid) than larger, less manouverable aircraft in IMC? That said I suppose most of the VFR aircraft will be PPL's and it's difficult to insist they communicate in English. No reason why the commercial traffic can't though and it's those aircraft I am most likely to encounter which is why they worry me.
I take no pleasure in denigrating a group but it has to be said Spanish ATC gives me cause for concern. Please don't take that as an insult, it's an observation based upon my experience. Nowhere is perfect but they do seem to lose the plot more often than some others.
Their most infuriating practice is to ignore aircraft checking in and dealing with a 'later' one who calls in Spanish. What is the solution? More money and better facilities for people like yourself perhaps? Clearly you and your fellow trainees have a better grasp of the language than some of the controllers I have had to deal with and we can only hope you graduate soon.
Good luck!!
An interesting point about the VFR pilots losing situational awareness but perhaps it might be better for them to be out of the loop (they can see and avoid) than larger, less manouverable aircraft in IMC? That said I suppose most of the VFR aircraft will be PPL's and it's difficult to insist they communicate in English. No reason why the commercial traffic can't though and it's those aircraft I am most likely to encounter which is why they worry me.
I take no pleasure in denigrating a group but it has to be said Spanish ATC gives me cause for concern. Please don't take that as an insult, it's an observation based upon my experience. Nowhere is perfect but they do seem to lose the plot more often than some others.
Their most infuriating practice is to ignore aircraft checking in and dealing with a 'later' one who calls in Spanish. What is the solution? More money and better facilities for people like yourself perhaps? Clearly you and your fellow trainees have a better grasp of the language than some of the controllers I have had to deal with and we can only hope you graduate soon.
Good luck!!
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andrijander,
You are a typical 7yo. Anyone critisizes Spanish ATC is a BAD person....even though they may [perhaps] have a valid point. More importantly, they actually FLY into that Airspace.....
But YOU, knowing [as you admit] NOTHING about Speed Control/ROD Cleared Levels in the London TMA quite happily tell Aircrew that it's ok to take 3-4 mniutes, because ATC won't mind, "And anyway, if he wanted you there yesterday...." Very professional.........
Oh, another item. Someone asked about the "Open Reporting Culture" that is prevelent in the UK, whether it is active in Spain....is it?
watp,iktch
You are a typical 7yo. Anyone critisizes Spanish ATC is a BAD person....even though they may [perhaps] have a valid point. More importantly, they actually FLY into that Airspace.....
But YOU, knowing [as you admit] NOTHING about Speed Control/ROD Cleared Levels in the London TMA quite happily tell Aircrew that it's ok to take 3-4 mniutes, because ATC won't mind, "And anyway, if he wanted you there yesterday...." Very professional.........
Oh, another item. Someone asked about the "Open Reporting Culture" that is prevelent in the UK, whether it is active in Spain....is it?
watp,iktch
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chiglet,
Your post is very intelligent.... because andrijander is not working in spanish airspace
About the open reporting, you were already answered... read the posts, please.
Your post is very intelligent.... because andrijander is not working in spanish airspace
About the open reporting, you were already answered... read the posts, please.
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Sonnendec,
I have been away for a little while but i would like to comment on your reply in post #165.
Unfortunately, spanish carriers get priority. Thats not something i make up so that Spanish ATC looks bad.
You might not have seen it in your working life, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. Maybe (i hope) you control on the first come, first serve basis. Thats the way it should be.
And to correct my earlier post. I fly regularly to the Canaries and indeed normally its controlled on a first come, first serve basis. Very occasionally a Binter is slipped in before us. However that can be solved by reducing speed a lttle bit earlier and does not require any delaying vectors.
The priority thing is much more frequent on main land Spain.
I have been away for a little while but i would like to comment on your reply in post #165.
Unfortunately, spanish carriers get priority. Thats not something i make up so that Spanish ATC looks bad.
You might not have seen it in your working life, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. Maybe (i hope) you control on the first come, first serve basis. Thats the way it should be.
And to correct my earlier post. I fly regularly to the Canaries and indeed normally its controlled on a first come, first serve basis. Very occasionally a Binter is slipped in before us. However that can be solved by reducing speed a lttle bit earlier and does not require any delaying vectors.
The priority thing is much more frequent on main land Spain.
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Jaja,
chicle,
you just know me so well don't cha? But of course it is easy to prove what you're saying because you only need to read my posts again and you will see that:
-I have critisiced everyone and all who has said something negative about anything related to Spain....not.
-I admitely know nothing about the London TMA other than it is in London (or Swanwick if we mean where the control room is I assume) and it is a TMA.
-I do know if you expect an AC to reduce 40 knots and descend w high rate it'll take time...and if you want it now you should have planned ahead before (I was told this story once by a pilot saying that airbrakes are for them to cover their mistakes, not mine).
-I may have no clue to speed control and ROC/ROD but that hasn't been a problem for me to handle the initial app to EHAM TMA from the east for 4 years -not to brag and maybe you don't care just wondering loudly: how can this have happened?-.
-As pointed to you please read the posts there is actually an answer posted to that one you still wonder.
Going back to serious mode: let's be serious. I may be whatever but venting just how bad my day was "just because"...well it takes me nowhere -yeah pilots also sometimes don't listen, some colleagues may be bad sometimes, neighbouring acc's may seem to not make sense this or that day or I could have seen a bad one on the making- However, there have been some posts I admire in here and they were not nice to "my precious" (or so it seems to be, I just didn't know :?: ). But they were fair and tried to adhere to facts not to feelings on something they experienced. Now when some people goes to the point of talking badly w/out proof and in an improper manner...well that is something else.
Safe flying,
A.
PD: I wrote 2 to 3 minutes and I didn't say they wouldn't care. I wrote: [...] we normally keep an eye to make sure you guys do what we asked -and not something else- so if needed you'll be issued extra instructions (just don't expect them to be nice...more like delaying vectors or some bashing).[.]So again please read first, shoot ACCORDINGLY.
chicle,
you just know me so well don't cha? But of course it is easy to prove what you're saying because you only need to read my posts again and you will see that:
-I have critisiced everyone and all who has said something negative about anything related to Spain....not.
-I admitely know nothing about the London TMA other than it is in London (or Swanwick if we mean where the control room is I assume) and it is a TMA.
-I do know if you expect an AC to reduce 40 knots and descend w high rate it'll take time...and if you want it now you should have planned ahead before (I was told this story once by a pilot saying that airbrakes are for them to cover their mistakes, not mine).
-I may have no clue to speed control and ROC/ROD but that hasn't been a problem for me to handle the initial app to EHAM TMA from the east for 4 years -not to brag and maybe you don't care just wondering loudly: how can this have happened?-.
-As pointed to you please read the posts there is actually an answer posted to that one you still wonder.
Going back to serious mode: let's be serious. I may be whatever but venting just how bad my day was "just because"...well it takes me nowhere -yeah pilots also sometimes don't listen, some colleagues may be bad sometimes, neighbouring acc's may seem to not make sense this or that day or I could have seen a bad one on the making- However, there have been some posts I admire in here and they were not nice to "my precious" (or so it seems to be, I just didn't know :?: ). But they were fair and tried to adhere to facts not to feelings on something they experienced. Now when some people goes to the point of talking badly w/out proof and in an improper manner...well that is something else.
Safe flying,
A.
PD: I wrote 2 to 3 minutes and I didn't say they wouldn't care. I wrote: [...] we normally keep an eye to make sure you guys do what we asked -and not something else- so if needed you'll be issued extra instructions (just don't expect them to be nice...more like delaying vectors or some bashing).[.]So again please read first, shoot ACCORDINGLY.
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Thanks a lot to give us a chance to get atc lesson for free!!!!!! Next time when you arrive at "my approach terminal area"" be sure that I would give you CRM lessons...also for free. Neither us, as ATCos nor you, as pilots, are perfect.
If you have any complain please follow standard procedures and do not feed "pollution on frecuencies & threads".
Regards from NW Spain.
If you have any complain please follow standard procedures and do not feed "pollution on frecuencies & threads".
Regards from NW Spain.
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sonnendec
Please tell me just where I said andrijander worked in Spain
I said that he critized anybody who said Bad things about Spanish ATC...
OK, I am interpreting a "defensive" posture against quote "Western Europeans" who are better [they think] than their Spanish counterparts as well.... "not nice people".
Andrij,
Perhaps it is time for ATC/ATC Liason Visits...again
watp,iktch
Please tell me just where I said andrijander worked in Spain
I said that he critized anybody who said Bad things about Spanish ATC...
OK, I am interpreting a "defensive" posture against quote "Western Europeans" who are better [they think] than their Spanish counterparts as well.... "not nice people".
Andrij,
Perhaps it is time for ATC/ATC Liason Visits...again
watp,iktch
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Chiglet,
If weren´t interpreting that andrijander was working in Spain... then your post is even more intelligent
And yes, it´s a defensive posture against a very unfair treatment in this forum.
Best regards.
If weren´t interpreting that andrijander was working in Spain... then your post is even more intelligent
And yes, it´s a defensive posture against a very unfair treatment in this forum.
Best regards.
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Also will be available some training courses to know how complete stabilized precision aproaches to runways whithout radar service...whith no extra cost just for friendly crews!!!
Its a pleasure for me to learn about atc items & teach about pilot skills.
Let the cobbler stick to his last.
Best regards from NW Spain.
Its a pleasure for me to learn about atc items & teach about pilot skills.
Let the cobbler stick to his last.
Best regards from NW Spain.
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where it was said:
Airbatica7eca wrote: "Spain has an open reporting system, the same as every country operating under JAR.".
Page 10 post number 199. It sounds pretty clear to me...I mean, because I've read it... which makes me think that the only reason it's not understood is because it wasn't read by some of you here.
Chiglet: anytime, mine's a lager
.
Safe flying,
A.
PD: y buen control a tod@s.
edited for punctuation.
Page 10 post number 199. It sounds pretty clear to me...I mean, because I've read it... which makes me think that the only reason it's not understood is because it wasn't read by some of you here.
Chiglet: anytime, mine's a lager
.Safe flying,
A.
PD: y buen control a tod@s.
edited for punctuation.
Have been flying to Spain today and here is a small example of what can happen.
I dont want to identify the airport but it's big and on the Spanish coast. Today 8th June a new ILS and associated procedure is promulgated on the South easterly runway and indeed the NOTAMS also mention this fact. So we brief for the new ILS - the ATIS is saying RW 12 etc. As we join the arc we find the ILS is not coding or showing. I ask approach if the ILS is working to be told negative, cleared for the VOR/DME approach.
Now the weather was good (Cavok, day) but it would have been nice if the ATIS had said "ILS off air, expect VOR/DME approach to RW...etc.
I dont want to identify the airport but it's big and on the Spanish coast. Today 8th June a new ILS and associated procedure is promulgated on the South easterly runway and indeed the NOTAMS also mention this fact. So we brief for the new ILS - the ATIS is saying RW 12 etc. As we join the arc we find the ILS is not coding or showing. I ask approach if the ILS is working to be told negative, cleared for the VOR/DME approach.
Now the weather was good (Cavok, day) but it would have been nice if the ATIS had said "ILS off air, expect VOR/DME approach to RW...etc.
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a) they got it b) come back next month
Notam Class A: LEVC A4166/07 NOTAMN
Q) LECB/QPIXX/I /NBO/A /000/999/3929N00029W005
A) LEVC
B) 06.06.07 18:43
C) 06.07.07 23:59 EST
E) REF AIP SPAIN (AIRAC AMDT 06/07) WEF 07-JUN-07 AD 2-LEVC IAC/1 ILS RWY 12 IAC MANOEUVRE POSTPONED
Q) LECB/QPIXX/I /NBO/A /000/999/3929N00029W005
A) LEVC
B) 06.06.07 18:43
C) 06.07.07 23:59 EST
E) REF AIP SPAIN (AIRAC AMDT 06/07) WEF 07-JUN-07 AD 2-LEVC IAC/1 ILS RWY 12 IAC MANOEUVRE POSTPONED
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Hello fireflybob,
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z
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I give initial clearance for EDDV inb and they got one runway, if landing is east 09 we call it east and we send tfc via ROBEG, if west 27 dct DLE(leine). Sometimes rwy is chg and we are notified later so it takes a bit for us to know and we therefore clear tfc initially dct the wrong place but because Bremen ACC hasn't told us yet....mind you they tend to chg their ATIS beforehand or something as pilots half the time seem to know before we do-atc is not a single cell but many ppl and we need some time to get our act together indeed-.
Hopefully ATIS will be changed by tomorrow...chances are it was changed during the day today and you got a bite of the gap (hopefully at least). Anybody knows when precisely has changed (if it has?) Groc tal vez lo puedas mirar y sacarles de sus dudas existenciales .
Safe flying,
A.
Hopefully ATIS will be changed by tomorrow...chances are it was changed during the day today and you got a bite of the gap (hopefully at least). Anybody knows when precisely has changed (if it has?) Groc tal vez lo puedas mirar y sacarles de sus dudas existenciales
.Safe flying,
A.
grob and threemiles thanks for the replies;
I can assure you that BCN did not advise us to expect VOR/DME RWY 12! Our entry point was PUMAL.
This was only a minor observation - on the whole I think Spanish ATC do a good job. Looks like the NOTAM delaying implementation of the ILS had not got through to our company system but my basic point is that if the ILS was not in service and the VOR/DME approach was in use this should be in the ATIS and/or notified by Approach control on initial contact.
I suppose what this debate proves is that flight safety is actually a matter of good teamwork (ie from pilots, controllers, assistants etc) but if you are playing a football game and lose 30 goals to nil you shouldnt blame it all on the goalkeeper!
Hello fireflybob,
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z
This was only a minor observation - on the whole I think Spanish ATC do a good job. Looks like the NOTAM delaying implementation of the ILS had not got through to our company system but my basic point is that if the ILS was not in service and the VOR/DME approach was in use this should be in the ATIS and/or notified by Approach control on initial contact.
I suppose what this debate proves is that flight safety is actually a matter of good teamwork (ie from pilots, controllers, assistants etc) but if you are playing a football game and lose 30 goals to nil you shouldnt blame it all on the goalkeeper!
Last edited by fireflybob; 9th Jun 2007 at 08:41.