flyBe GPWS incident (rumour)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zebedie & others.
I know of 1 company which prohibits orbits closer then 10nm from runway, + other criteria concerning weather & configuration. If not possible then standard G/A is required. It's a blanket rule, sounds safe, but there are occaisions where other options are equally safe, and considering fuel state, perhaps safer.
MSA calculates out to 25nm and is not always relevant, even IMC, if over the airfield. Many runways have beacons, or other waypoint, around 4nm from threshold. Often there is a published hold there with a MHA. Often there is also a published procedure for making a procedural approach from that beacon, either teardrop or extending the hold. I can not see anything unsafe about descending in this hold and intercepting the G/S at the correct published altitude. I can think of GRO, AGP, and other mountainous approaches where this manoeuvre can be performed, safely, inside 10nm and below MSA. It just takes good airmanship to decide if it's appropriate.
I will agree that an orbit on short finals is perhaps a bit late to be making adjusments to what was likely to be a known problem much further away. ATC can box you in, agreed, or perhaps another a/c has a cancelled takeoff clearance and blocks the runway. If this is known at the OM, a hold can be more efficient for everyone than a full G/A. Once past this point, surely a full G/A or into the circuit would be the only options.
Remember the skillful pilot is one who avoids the situations where they need their skill to escape.
On a lighter note there was a friend inbound to XYZ and was asked at the last minute to orbit at the OM to allow a backtrack. He did so. Radar were confused as his trace did not move, but he lost time. He was in a chipmunk and who said the orbit had to be horizontal.
I know of 1 company which prohibits orbits closer then 10nm from runway, + other criteria concerning weather & configuration. If not possible then standard G/A is required. It's a blanket rule, sounds safe, but there are occaisions where other options are equally safe, and considering fuel state, perhaps safer.
MSA calculates out to 25nm and is not always relevant, even IMC, if over the airfield. Many runways have beacons, or other waypoint, around 4nm from threshold. Often there is a published hold there with a MHA. Often there is also a published procedure for making a procedural approach from that beacon, either teardrop or extending the hold. I can not see anything unsafe about descending in this hold and intercepting the G/S at the correct published altitude. I can think of GRO, AGP, and other mountainous approaches where this manoeuvre can be performed, safely, inside 10nm and below MSA. It just takes good airmanship to decide if it's appropriate.
I will agree that an orbit on short finals is perhaps a bit late to be making adjusments to what was likely to be a known problem much further away. ATC can box you in, agreed, or perhaps another a/c has a cancelled takeoff clearance and blocks the runway. If this is known at the OM, a hold can be more efficient for everyone than a full G/A. Once past this point, surely a full G/A or into the circuit would be the only options.
Remember the skillful pilot is one who avoids the situations where they need their skill to escape.
On a lighter note there was a friend inbound to XYZ and was asked at the last minute to orbit at the OM to allow a backtrack. He did so. Radar were confused as his trace did not move, but he lost time. He was in a chipmunk and who said the orbit had to be horizontal.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I the only one who finds this thread disturbing, in that facts seem thin on the ground (no report published yet), and yet some contributers seem quite happy to spout character assasinations of the operating crew!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Said Captain was a War hero with a few baddies uder his belt.
As you say, probably performed faualtlessly in SIM and line checks.
Er, I don't think so. Not unless he hit them with a torque wrench!
As you say, probably performed faualtlessly in SIM and line checks.
Er, I don't think so. Not unless he hit them with a torque wrench!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Euroville
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chesty Morgan
Perhaps you are a little institutionalised at some big airline and you have become a little too cosy and think your airlines way of doing things is the only way? I can tell you for a fact that the OPS manual of a large Jet Aircraft operating airline bans exactly such a thing. In the case you refer to earlier, yes, at 10 miles you are required to carry out the full published missed approach proceedure or get vectors for a new approach. Why? because a cowboy orbit at low level almost resulted in a large smoking hole 2 dme before the threshold.
show me an Ops manual that specifically says DO NOT ORBIT ON FINAL!
Ut Sementem Feeceris
For example, you ask why the Captain left the F/O alone for so long given the F/O's inexperience in European Ops. Well, those of us who do have experience of European Ops (which includes you) know that once you enter French airspace the first controller will usually give you clearance direct to a waypoint hundreds of miles ahead, and then all goes quiet for long periods of time with the exception of an occasional frequency change. It was at just such a point that the Captain left the flightdeck (with the F/O's permission) to go to the loo, eat some breakfast, and have a cup of tea. I make no judgement on whether he was right or wrong to do that, but that was the crew's third sector, and the first opportunity for the flightdeck to take a break in what was rostered to be a 10 hour day. The Captain returned to the flightdeck 25-30 minutes later, so you're effectively saying that the F/O was incapable of manning the ship alone for that length of time.
So what if it's 10 day. I regularly do 10 hour days but wouldn't dream of doing the above. Is this a regualar practice at Flybe?A4
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely not!!!!
The great majority of our sectors are within the 1 hour timeframe.
If you do need a toilet break, always get the cabin crew in to watch over.
A 30 minute break seems excessive in the circumstances to me.
The great majority of our sectors are within the 1 hour timeframe.
If you do need a toilet break, always get the cabin crew in to watch over.
A 30 minute break seems excessive in the circumstances to me.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Citizen of the World
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sweet Jesus!! Orbits/IMC circling at low level below the MSA etc etc. Out of the flight deck for 25 - 30 mins having brekkie no less!! If even a fraction of the above is true, this must be the biggest cowboy outfit in Europe and all under the jurisdictioon of our beloved CAA. Remind me to keep my distance.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Telstar
Fair enough. And if I worked for said airline I wouldn't be orbiting on final. But until this airline bans them I will keep doing them if I think it's safe and useful. I'm not institutionalised and I'm certainly no cowboy either but my airlines way of doing things is the only way I can do them.
If an orbit in visual conditions almost resulted in a large smoking hole and lots of coffins then I would, without knowledge of the incident, suggest a certain lack of situational awareness and skill!
"A rule book is made of paper, it will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal"
Make of that what you will.
Fair enough. And if I worked for said airline I wouldn't be orbiting on final. But until this airline bans them I will keep doing them if I think it's safe and useful. I'm not institutionalised and I'm certainly no cowboy either but my airlines way of doing things is the only way I can do them.
If an orbit in visual conditions almost resulted in a large smoking hole and lots of coffins then I would, without knowledge of the incident, suggest a certain lack of situational awareness and skill!
"A rule book is made of paper, it will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal"
Make of that what you will.
Thread Starter
Flybe.com
says it all doesnt it "out of the flight deck for 30 mins" beyond belief really.Quite how you can defend anyone who conducts themself in this manner is beyond belief , it appears that things have gotten even worse than they were.
Hopefully your new colleagues from Connect will bring some sanity before there is a smoking hole somewhere !
Dont know how your accountable mangagers can sleep at night with this sort of thing going on.
NF
says it all doesnt it "out of the flight deck for 30 mins" beyond belief really.Quite how you can defend anyone who conducts themself in this manner is beyond belief , it appears that things have gotten even worse than they were.
Hopefully your new colleagues from Connect will bring some sanity before there is a smoking hole somewhere !
Dont know how your accountable mangagers can sleep at night with this sort of thing going on.
NF
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless of how much truth there may or may not be behind the numerous versions of events of this particular incident, it is NOT indicative of the general attitude or standards of the vast majority of the crews at Flybe.
There are an increasingly dwindling number of old hands at certain bases who have a slightly more relaxed approach shall we say to SOPs than others, but we have a management team determined (rightly or wrongly) to winkle them out of the business.
Please don't take one incident and tar us all with the same brush.
Thank you.
There are an increasingly dwindling number of old hands at certain bases who have a slightly more relaxed approach shall we say to SOPs than others, but we have a management team determined (rightly or wrongly) to winkle them out of the business.
Please don't take one incident and tar us all with the same brush.
Thank you.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Snigs, get a life! I've flown with the Captain you're referring to and have never had a problem with him. I've always found him to be professional, relaxed and approachable, and until reading your posts, didn't know you had issues. Easy to bad mouth someone who no longer works with you!!
I notice you haven't said one bad word about the F/O involved in the incident. Is that because you did your course together? Is she not partially to blame? Afterall, its about working together as a team.
I always found the Captain willing to allow the F/O to make decisions and develop as a pilot, but never at the expense of safe operations. However it would appear on this occasion that his trust was slightly misplaced.
You need the strength of character to speak up for yourself if you're not happy. Since the F/O was PF, she had the option to do this at anytime and when the EGPWS went off, they went around. No orbits. End of story.
We continue to learn in this profession, and if you've learnt all there is to know, I wouldn't want to fly with you anymore! If you can honestly say that you've never made a mistake, I take my hat off to you.
Be careful of throwing stones in glasshouses.
I notice you haven't said one bad word about the F/O involved in the incident. Is that because you did your course together? Is she not partially to blame? Afterall, its about working together as a team.
I always found the Captain willing to allow the F/O to make decisions and develop as a pilot, but never at the expense of safe operations. However it would appear on this occasion that his trust was slightly misplaced.
You need the strength of character to speak up for yourself if you're not happy. Since the F/O was PF, she had the option to do this at anytime and when the EGPWS went off, they went around. No orbits. End of story.
We continue to learn in this profession, and if you've learnt all there is to know, I wouldn't want to fly with you anymore! If you can honestly say that you've never made a mistake, I take my hat off to you.
Be careful of throwing stones in glasshouses.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hudson Bay,
I'm afraid I shall have to disagree with your millitant stance regarding the crew being "idiots".
I have never seen an Ops manual that prohibits circling on final, indeed, if carefully flown it can be very useful to lose height/create time/increase separation.
The problem is not the manouvre, it is the application. It shouldn't be attempted (just like anything else) unless the crew are sure of their ability to accurately and safely complete the manouvre within the rules). Pilots are trained profesionals that should be capable of making their own decisions. Sure we can legislate for the lowest common denominator but that would be a real shame, and an insult to many.
If you wish to teach that any crew that doesn't go around is an idiot then that is your choice, however you are using the term idiot to clump together those that should go around as well some very accomplished and experienced aviators who would have no trouble with such a manouvre.
Careful, thorough, consideration and rigour is the key to being a good pilot. Know your limits, admit to yourself weaknesses and don't be afraid to throw away the approach if things are not going as planned. Orbitting is fine. Orbitting out of control is not. Calling other aviators idiots for not obeying your personnal Ops Manual is churlish and embarassing to us professionals.
I'm afraid I shall have to disagree with your millitant stance regarding the crew being "idiots".
I have never seen an Ops manual that prohibits circling on final, indeed, if carefully flown it can be very useful to lose height/create time/increase separation.
The problem is not the manouvre, it is the application. It shouldn't be attempted (just like anything else) unless the crew are sure of their ability to accurately and safely complete the manouvre within the rules). Pilots are trained profesionals that should be capable of making their own decisions. Sure we can legislate for the lowest common denominator but that would be a real shame, and an insult to many.
If you wish to teach that any crew that doesn't go around is an idiot then that is your choice, however you are using the term idiot to clump together those that should go around as well some very accomplished and experienced aviators who would have no trouble with such a manouvre.
Careful, thorough, consideration and rigour is the key to being a good pilot. Know your limits, admit to yourself weaknesses and don't be afraid to throw away the approach if things are not going as planned. Orbitting is fine. Orbitting out of control is not. Calling other aviators idiots for not obeying your personnal Ops Manual is churlish and embarassing to us professionals.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following this from the sidelines, but really guys - this is basic stuff -
Orbiting is prohibited because below MSA, one needs to either be under positive and precise radar control, or following a published instrument procedure. Basic airmanship also precludes it, and I'm frankly alarmed that, because the ops manual doesn't spell it out, so many people think its perfectly OK!
However, I can't see a huge problem with leaving the flight deck for 25-30 mins. I dont know of any rules against it, the aeroplane is designed and certified to fly with just one pilot at the controls, and to pop out for a morning dump and stretch of legs, and a bit of CRMing with the CC would take that long. Many long haul airlines now permit a half hour snooze in the cruise.
Orbiting is prohibited because below MSA, one needs to either be under positive and precise radar control, or following a published instrument procedure. Basic airmanship also precludes it, and I'm frankly alarmed that, because the ops manual doesn't spell it out, so many people think its perfectly OK!
However, I can't see a huge problem with leaving the flight deck for 25-30 mins. I dont know of any rules against it, the aeroplane is designed and certified to fly with just one pilot at the controls, and to pop out for a morning dump and stretch of legs, and a bit of CRMing with the CC would take that long. Many long haul airlines now permit a half hour snooze in the cruise.
Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 30th Jan 2007 at 08:48.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Age: 59
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been a Capt. with FlyBe for many years now, and find it quite offensive that some people here are keen to tar us all with the same brush.
In my 15+ years with FlyBe I have NEVER flown with anyone who has even contemplated 'going down the back for 30 mins' - F/O's and Capt's. This is a very rare event and if this Capt. was doing this on a regular basis it should have been dealt with ages ago. It is most definitely NOT 'general FlyBe practice'.
FlyBe.com - you may well know this Capt. but quite frankly you must admit that this practise is VERY wrong for several reasons - particularly after Sept. 11th. It doesn't matter how much of a direct routing you get or how quiet you think ATC are, you are being paid to do a job, not to be a passenger.
We're not talking about 10 hour long haul flights here, we are talking of 2-3 hours. By all means answer the call of nature but whilst doing so get one of the cabin crew to stay in the cockpit with the F/O and the cockpit door locked - standard FlyBe practise.
If you do not have time to eat then after you land, extend the turn-around to eat something and if necessary delay the flight. I have done so on many occasions. If the managers don't like the delay - stuff 'em - safety first.
This incident is a regrettable one and as you have read here the person in question has decided to jump before being pushed.
In my 15+ years with FlyBe I have NEVER flown with anyone who has even contemplated 'going down the back for 30 mins' - F/O's and Capt's. This is a very rare event and if this Capt. was doing this on a regular basis it should have been dealt with ages ago. It is most definitely NOT 'general FlyBe practice'.
FlyBe.com - you may well know this Capt. but quite frankly you must admit that this practise is VERY wrong for several reasons - particularly after Sept. 11th. It doesn't matter how much of a direct routing you get or how quiet you think ATC are, you are being paid to do a job, not to be a passenger.
We're not talking about 10 hour long haul flights here, we are talking of 2-3 hours. By all means answer the call of nature but whilst doing so get one of the cabin crew to stay in the cockpit with the F/O and the cockpit door locked - standard FlyBe practise. If you do not have time to eat then after you land, extend the turn-around to eat something and if necessary delay the flight. I have done so on many occasions. If the managers don't like the delay - stuff 'em - safety first.
This incident is a regrettable one and as you have read here the person in question has decided to jump before being pushed.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joe le Taxi,
I agree with your statement but you are forgetting that descent below MSA including manouvring below MSA is perfectly fine when visual (if you want a full description of what that means by day and night then I'll hapily oblige).
So we proffessional pilots are still allowed to fly the aeroplane...sometimes without using the guidance of HDG SEL or LNAV......GASP!!!!
Fly the aeroplane within the rule book and within your own abilities, never oustside either. If anyone disagrees with that then see me after class.
I agree with your statement but you are forgetting that descent below MSA including manouvring below MSA is perfectly fine when visual (if you want a full description of what that means by day and night then I'll hapily oblige).
So we proffessional pilots are still allowed to fly the aeroplane...sometimes without using the guidance of HDG SEL or LNAV......GASP!!!!
Fly the aeroplane within the rule book and within your own abilities, never oustside either. If anyone disagrees with that then see me after class.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Euroville
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chesty Morgan
Ironic we are talking about this today. This just published:
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8770-0.pdf
There are oodles more reports like this, and I have made it a personal SOP never to do orbits on finals in Jet Aircraft as it ends in tears. Note the Capt and PF was a 12,000 hr pilot. There for the grace of god go I...........
Ironic we are talking about this today. This just published:
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8770-0.pdf
There are oodles more reports like this, and I have made it a personal SOP never to do orbits on finals in Jet Aircraft as it ends in tears. Note the Capt and PF was a 12,000 hr pilot. There for the grace of god go I...........
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now if people are asking about "best practice" then perhaps I shall concede that visual manouvring a heavy jet isn't easy and requires a great deal of care and attention. If you are going to then ensure you and your colleague know what you a are doing - set bottom lines, gates, and communicate.
When I am flying into airfields into the states I personnally decline clearance that ask me to visually "follow" the aircraft ahead. Judging sufficient separation between "heavies" is tough (can you accurately judge 2 or 4nm range to another aircraft?).
But I am not saying that it should become a rule that we don't do it. I am saying that it is outside MY comfort envelope and should a colleague ask to do it I would express my concerns but evaluate each case on its indidual merits (ie carry out a risk analysis).
When I am flying into airfields into the states I personnally decline clearance that ask me to visually "follow" the aircraft ahead. Judging sufficient separation between "heavies" is tough (can you accurately judge 2 or 4nm range to another aircraft?).
But I am not saying that it should become a rule that we don't do it. I am saying that it is outside MY comfort envelope and should a colleague ask to do it I would express my concerns but evaluate each case on its indidual merits (ie carry out a risk analysis).
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even in VMC, self manoevering within mountainous terrain has to be done with extreme care, as the turn radius can easily exceed the spacing from a mountain if you're not careful.
Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 30th Jan 2007 at 12:59.