flyBe GPWS incident (rumour)
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PGF Cock-Up
It appears I have made myself unpopular by putting this post on pprune, I stand by my comments although I appreciate I do not hold all the facts it was merely an individual point of view as pprune is supposed to be anonymous and also a rumour forum.
Last edited by jarjam; 28th Jan 2007 at 14:58.
Gender Faculty Specialist
I witnessed several "odd" and non SOP events whilst working with him myself including non stabilised approaches, very high approaches and dangerously deep landings
With a disfunctional training/safety system like that is it any suprise that the incident at PGF happened I think not.
I know of a pilot who was promoted to captain on minimum hours who had only flown within the UK during his time at flybe (NOT EVEN TO FRANCE!!) He was rostered to fly 78 people over the Alps to Burn in Switzerland which is surrounded by mountains in the middle of winter!
the majority of flying is about being steered onto an ILS at whatever speed you like follow the needles and land
Facts dear boy facts!
Thread Starter
Chesty , why didnt they sack this guy if he was no good , training also includes testing !
In my time at Flybe i had the mis-fortune to fly with guys who i would not have given command of a wheelbarrow to , by the sound of it nothing has changed.
You got the hours/seniority you got promoted simple as that. I once positioned in a Dash8 which did two RTO's .The total combined flight time of the flightdeck was less than 2000 hrs.
Incidents such as the PGF one are bound to happen when there is pressure on the training dept to "get people through"
There are incidentally some very fine , experienced guys and gals at Flybe whose boots i am not fit to lace , so lets not tar them all with the same brush.
Seems to me that a solution that asks "the Capt to leave" is really ignoring the big picture of why it happenened in the first place.
I would have thought the CAA will start to get very interested if there is much more of this.
In my time at Flybe i had the mis-fortune to fly with guys who i would not have given command of a wheelbarrow to , by the sound of it nothing has changed.
You got the hours/seniority you got promoted simple as that. I once positioned in a Dash8 which did two RTO's .The total combined flight time of the flightdeck was less than 2000 hrs.
Incidents such as the PGF one are bound to happen when there is pressure on the training dept to "get people through"
There are incidentally some very fine , experienced guys and gals at Flybe whose boots i am not fit to lace , so lets not tar them all with the same brush.
Seems to me that a solution that asks "the Capt to leave" is really ignoring the big picture of why it happenened in the first place.
I would have thought the CAA will start to get very interested if there is much more of this.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Nil Further. Dunno! I never met the guy and I never flew with him so I don't know how 'bad' he was. Perhaps there was a lack of evidence. Maybe there were too many F/O's who would rather not speak up or file an ASR when he did do something nonstandard, odd or dangerous. Perhaps Jarjam can enlighten us.
I agree that sweeping the incident and the Skipper under the carpet wont resolve the issue...if there really is one. Suffice to say that all the F/O's I've flown with recently wouldn't have allowed themselves to get into such a situation and neither would I. I genuinely think that the training is very good. But, there are always going to be a few bad apples that nadger the reputation of the training department and their colleagues! And we all know, from sharing sim sessions with them, that these people CAN do the job correctly, they just choose not too.
I agree that sweeping the incident and the Skipper under the carpet wont resolve the issue...if there really is one. Suffice to say that all the F/O's I've flown with recently wouldn't have allowed themselves to get into such a situation and neither would I. I genuinely think that the training is very good. But, there are always going to be a few bad apples that nadger the reputation of the training department and their colleagues! And we all know, from sharing sim sessions with them, that these people CAN do the job correctly, they just choose not too.
So you can have a command at FlyBe with < 2000 hours. How many hours before becoming a trainer? Please tell me it's not a case of captains with 2000 hours being taught by trainers with 2500 hours?
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Said Captain was a War hero with a few baddies uder his belt.
As you say, probably performed faualtlessly in SIM and line checks.
It would appear the company gave him a sword to fall on.
As you say, probably performed faualtlessly in SIM and line checks.
It would appear the company gave him a sword to fall on.
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Hudson Bay -
May I assume when you say something is non-S0P, you mean that it is a specifically non-approved procedure? I have never read an Ops manual that even mentions an orbit manoeuvre, yet it is one of those things which, on the very odd occasion, is just the right tool for the job.
I can't see that they are inherently dangerous - I personally rate them as less challenging than a circling approach or a visual approach - or don't you do those either! A competent pilot should have both the skill to be able to execute an orbit safely, and the good sense to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. It is worth considering that compared to a go-around they save a tremendous amount of fuel and you don't lose your position in the queue...
Anyway, I've only been doing this job for a quarter of a century so I am still learning.
Over to you.......
May I assume when you say something is non-S0P, you mean that it is a specifically non-approved procedure? I have never read an Ops manual that even mentions an orbit manoeuvre, yet it is one of those things which, on the very odd occasion, is just the right tool for the job.
I can't see that they are inherently dangerous - I personally rate them as less challenging than a circling approach or a visual approach - or don't you do those either! A competent pilot should have both the skill to be able to execute an orbit safely, and the good sense to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. It is worth considering that compared to a go-around they save a tremendous amount of fuel and you don't lose your position in the queue...
Anyway, I've only been doing this job for a quarter of a century so I am still learning.
Over to you.......
Last edited by Weary; 26th Jan 2007 at 00:05. Reason: typo!
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Here's a thought. Hire more experienced pilots. Yes the captain apparently had quite a bit of time but if the F/O had been either A) more experienced or B) more forceful in speaking out (which usually comes with experience) this whole incident may have been avoided. I have flown the Dash-8 in and out of very challenging mountainous approaches in Canada for almost 5 yrs (alot of them being circling approaches) and have never heard of any of our planes having a problem. Of course we have 5000- 9000hr F/O's instead of 200hr wonders that paid for their type rating.
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I-Ford. Show me an OP's manual that approves orbits on final approach?
Weary. Are you doing your own thing again? You are one of the lucky ones that has got away it. Making things up as you go along is not the way to fly an aircraft.
I am sure you have the ability to turn an aircraft through 360 degrees but I think you should ask yourself if you should be carrying out such a manoeuvre.
Think about the Eire Jet that landed at Ballykelly Airport instead of Londonderry. Maybe if he hadn't taken up an orbit on final approach he wouldn't have landed at the wrong airport.
Maybe the 737 at Bristol wouldn't have come within 300 feet of the ground if he hadn't of made an orbit on Final.
Do you need more examples? Do you know more than your company?
Follow your company procedures and you won't go far wrong.
Weary. Are you doing your own thing again? You are one of the lucky ones that has got away it. Making things up as you go along is not the way to fly an aircraft.
I am sure you have the ability to turn an aircraft through 360 degrees but I think you should ask yourself if you should be carrying out such a manoeuvre.
Think about the Eire Jet that landed at Ballykelly Airport instead of Londonderry. Maybe if he hadn't taken up an orbit on final approach he wouldn't have landed at the wrong airport.
Maybe the 737 at Bristol wouldn't have come within 300 feet of the ground if he hadn't of made an orbit on Final.
Do you need more examples? Do you know more than your company?
Follow your company procedures and you won't go far wrong.
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What is the point of doing an orbit on Finals???? why not just do a standard go-around. Yes modern aircraft are indeed capable of carrying out an orbit, they are also capable of doing negative 'g' pushovers, zoom climbs, stalls, operating with one engine shutdown. Does not mean that I would attempt any of these with fare paying passengers on board!! Safest way is quite simply go around and fly the approach again.
Knowing that the runway at LDY was relatively short, he concentrated on flying an accurate approach to ensure that he landed on the threshold at the correct speed. He stated that, once he was visual with BKL, and not knowing there was another airfield in the vicinity, his mind-set was that this must be his destination airfield. At no time did the commander see LDY in the distance and the perceived problem with the ILS and the presence of the ILS calibrator aircraft all reinforced his perception that this was the correct, and only, airfield.
Why let the truth get in the way of a good rant eh?
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 26th Jan 2007 at 12:50.
Gender Faculty Specialist
I-Ford. Show me an OP's manual that approves orbits on final approach?
It's called thinking for yourself if you need to.
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Chesty
If you thought for yourself you wouldn't be orbiting on final approach.
Why not carry out a standard go-around? I forgot you want to save fuel.
Student in debt
You have a lot to learn. Read the full article before you comment.
There are many instances of orbiting on final approach where it's ended in disaster. Why do you not learn from other peoples mistakes? Sad and worrying.
If you thought for yourself you wouldn't be orbiting on final approach.
Why not carry out a standard go-around? I forgot you want to save fuel.
Student in debt
You have a lot to learn. Read the full article before you comment.
There are many instances of orbiting on final approach where it's ended in disaster. Why do you not learn from other peoples mistakes? Sad and worrying.
Which of your mistakes do you suggest I learn from? I think that I've already learnt not to use hyperbole and misinformation to try to reinforce my argument when the basic premis of that argument is cogent.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 26th Jan 2007 at 16:06.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Hudson. Yep you're quite correct, and I do, as do 99% of pilots.
However, when ATC leave you high (for any number of reasons) are you telling me that you are going to carry out a standard go around from 10 miles or so? Or will you accept a vectored or visual orbit as a more commercial and very safe means to get on the ground? Bearing in mind that nine times out of ten a standard go around will end up as a vectored orbit, of sorts, from ATC so they can slot you back into the flow.
Maude Charlie, I think I'd enjoy flying with you
StudentInDebt I don't think Hudson makes any mistakes, do you?
However, when ATC leave you high (for any number of reasons) are you telling me that you are going to carry out a standard go around from 10 miles or so? Or will you accept a vectored or visual orbit as a more commercial and very safe means to get on the ground? Bearing in mind that nine times out of ten a standard go around will end up as a vectored orbit, of sorts, from ATC so they can slot you back into the flow.
Maude Charlie, I think I'd enjoy flying with you
StudentInDebt I don't think Hudson makes any mistakes, do you?
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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I don't know why I'm entering the fray again, but as this thread has crept beyond all recognition, here's an example. Me FO, me PF, GLA to BHD, tailwind, misjudged the ROD, ATC asks if I have enough track miles, red faced I have to admit not, OK they say, turn left, the long way around onto hdg xxx to intercept loc. Is that not an orbit? Not quite on final, but as near as dammit, after all I could see the chimney, but just couldn't get down in time!
Last edited by Snigs; 31st Jan 2007 at 18:57.