Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?
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...They were only "minor" events because he aircraft concerned were not larger! One of our 145s was one of them, and that type is not best happy in slippy conditions....
A company notice went up today banning BA Connect 145s from Bristol when the runway is wet, but if it dries up they can operate and will. Very sensible and correct. I can't for the life of me work out how the management of BRS haven't got the grooving machine out right now no matter how expensive it is!
A company notice went up today banning BA Connect 145s from Bristol when the runway is wet, but if it dries up they can operate and will. Very sensible and correct. I can't for the life of me work out how the management of BRS haven't got the grooving machine out right now no matter how expensive it is!
Having read the above contributions, a couple of my long held beliefs are confirmed.......too many people put safety first only in their safety policy documents (in reality the bottom line has first priority) and secondly, passengers are still treated in the same way that they have always been treated by airlines and handling agents.....'as nuisances' and the last people to be kept in the communication loop. What a sad comment on our aviation industry.
H49
H49
What a depressing thread this is.....
The runway at BRS has been a problem for as long as I can remember, for one reason or another (obstructions, slopes, and now surface). I don't know why the two aircraft ran off recently but they are not the first by a long way. I would want a very careful investigation before even thinking of blaming the operating crew.
Lack of proper investment and maintainance is fairly clearly the primary cause, and this is a characteristic of any airport owner who invested simply to turn as big a profit as possible as quickly as possible. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as there is a pro-active regulator ready, willing and able to threaten closure, and do it if nothing happens, the moment that things slip.
Step forward the CAA.........ah well, perhaps not.
The problem is that most UK airports are now owned by investors who have one sole purpose, and that's an exit within 5-10 years with the highest achievable pay-off. You don't get that by investing in long term safety improvements, or by reducing profits by spending more than a bare minimum on maintenance. With a supine and compliant regulator, we have not seen the last accident due to airport inadequacies.
Could Exeter be the next place where things start to go wrong? LCY and Balfour Beatty are not there other than to maximise return on capital as quickly as possible, ie before demand is constrained and reduced by environmental measures and/or terrorism.
The bleats about passenger attitudes from ground staff are equally depressing, because they reveal the attitudes of these staff towards their customers. Clearly the customers were treated like sheep in the case of diversions from BRS and herded from place to place, with rude staff and little information. I now fly on business every few weeks on European services , LCC and others, and having been in the airline and airport industry for 35 years I find the behaviour of ground passenger service staff is now almost universally appalling, particularly in the UK. Easyjet's treatment of boarding passengers at the gate is especially oppressive, offensive and demeaning, whether or not it is Easyjet or an agent for Easyjet. (LPL and PMI, recently, to name but two stations of many).
Unless the culture of contempt for the customer that is now the norm, not only with LCCs, is eradicated, the industry may well find that even British passengers become less tolerant and more often react violently to the treatment that is meted out to them. It is condescending rubbish to assume that they don't understand or tolerate safety issues. They do; what they object to is being treated like idiots, often by people who are themselves clearly untrained, incompetent, unintelligent, and totally unable to handle a situation calling for initiative and ability, such as a diversion. I refer to the majority of passenger service ground staff at most airports, from management downwards.
The runway at BRS has been a problem for as long as I can remember, for one reason or another (obstructions, slopes, and now surface). I don't know why the two aircraft ran off recently but they are not the first by a long way. I would want a very careful investigation before even thinking of blaming the operating crew.
Lack of proper investment and maintainance is fairly clearly the primary cause, and this is a characteristic of any airport owner who invested simply to turn as big a profit as possible as quickly as possible. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as there is a pro-active regulator ready, willing and able to threaten closure, and do it if nothing happens, the moment that things slip.
Step forward the CAA.........ah well, perhaps not.
The problem is that most UK airports are now owned by investors who have one sole purpose, and that's an exit within 5-10 years with the highest achievable pay-off. You don't get that by investing in long term safety improvements, or by reducing profits by spending more than a bare minimum on maintenance. With a supine and compliant regulator, we have not seen the last accident due to airport inadequacies.
Could Exeter be the next place where things start to go wrong? LCY and Balfour Beatty are not there other than to maximise return on capital as quickly as possible, ie before demand is constrained and reduced by environmental measures and/or terrorism.
The bleats about passenger attitudes from ground staff are equally depressing, because they reveal the attitudes of these staff towards their customers. Clearly the customers were treated like sheep in the case of diversions from BRS and herded from place to place, with rude staff and little information. I now fly on business every few weeks on European services , LCC and others, and having been in the airline and airport industry for 35 years I find the behaviour of ground passenger service staff is now almost universally appalling, particularly in the UK. Easyjet's treatment of boarding passengers at the gate is especially oppressive, offensive and demeaning, whether or not it is Easyjet or an agent for Easyjet. (LPL and PMI, recently, to name but two stations of many).
Unless the culture of contempt for the customer that is now the norm, not only with LCCs, is eradicated, the industry may well find that even British passengers become less tolerant and more often react violently to the treatment that is meted out to them. It is condescending rubbish to assume that they don't understand or tolerate safety issues. They do; what they object to is being treated like idiots, often by people who are themselves clearly untrained, incompetent, unintelligent, and totally unable to handle a situation calling for initiative and ability, such as a diversion. I refer to the majority of passenger service ground staff at most airports, from management downwards.
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Brissle Bullshine
During an 11 minute section as the lead live from Bristol Airport report on teh BBC's main West of England news tonight, we were treated to a flurry of "pilots comments" in subtitles "taken from a pilots web site". That's why the first few pages off this thread made up most of BBC Points' West story tonight- verbatim lifts from here.
That is how a journo stands a story up these days...
As for Bristol Int Airports' MD, I can only award him a gold star for alleged Bullshine. " Minor incidents due to a number of factors, the runways condition was not at fault" The runways was not a factor". Its the airlines decision not the pilots...". "Oh how much we regret Easy Jets decision. Safety remains our top priority, nothing wrong, top class contractors, blah blah.
So, on one hand there is no problem, but on the other hand he understands Easy et al if they decide to make a safety decision...
He said the CAA had been along today and cleared the runway as safe...
I remind you folks, he said the runway was not one of those numerous factors that caused a/c to depart their profile!
What was it then- bacon buttys on the railway line?
UK corporate speak - how terribly disappointing for safety...
Rant over - but if you had seen it....you would too.
That is how a journo stands a story up these days...
As for Bristol Int Airports' MD, I can only award him a gold star for alleged Bullshine. " Minor incidents due to a number of factors, the runways condition was not at fault" The runways was not a factor". Its the airlines decision not the pilots...". "Oh how much we regret Easy Jets decision. Safety remains our top priority, nothing wrong, top class contractors, blah blah.
So, on one hand there is no problem, but on the other hand he understands Easy et al if they decide to make a safety decision...
He said the CAA had been along today and cleared the runway as safe...
I remind you folks, he said the runway was not one of those numerous factors that caused a/c to depart their profile!
What was it then- bacon buttys on the railway line?
UK corporate speak - how terribly disappointing for safety...
Rant over - but if you had seen it....you would too.
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Crap Presenter! "Air...plane?"
Both incidents happened on Landing not taxing.
Bristol aiport website makes intresting reading, they have issued a statement still trying to make out the runway is fine.
They have a list of all the airlines who will not operate out of BRS but tried to make themselves look better by having a large list of airlines who are operating out of BRS, most of which didn't have any flights scheduled out of BRS today. They did mention Thomsonfly as one of the airlines operating out of BRS but if you look at the arrival boards they to have diverted to BHX.
Bristol aiport website makes intresting reading, they have issued a statement still trying to make out the runway is fine.
They have a list of all the airlines who will not operate out of BRS but tried to make themselves look better by having a large list of airlines who are operating out of BRS, most of which didn't have any flights scheduled out of BRS today. They did mention Thomsonfly as one of the airlines operating out of BRS but if you look at the arrival boards they to have diverted to BHX.
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Customer Services BRS
Having seen several posts about appalling service by mostly unnamed airlines, and as a CSM at BRS................
I was called in this morning off a rest day, and have spent around 7 hours in the terminal. The BACON customer services team have performed wonders all day, organising coaches, looking after passengers both landside and airside, with more and more flights being cancelled as the day wore on. Some of the early shift actually offered to stay on and help. Not helped by the BA website saying no ops all weekend out of BRS, not sure where that came from, but as I left a couple of hours ago, an attempt at running an operation tomorrow will occur.
And all this while all of us are facing redundancy shortly, with no info from the BACON board......
As for the runway conditions, I believe all the flight decks of whatever colour are making the right decision, despite making my job very interesting...
GroundBunnie
I was called in this morning off a rest day, and have spent around 7 hours in the terminal. The BACON customer services team have performed wonders all day, organising coaches, looking after passengers both landside and airside, with more and more flights being cancelled as the day wore on. Some of the early shift actually offered to stay on and help. Not helped by the BA website saying no ops all weekend out of BRS, not sure where that came from, but as I left a couple of hours ago, an attempt at running an operation tomorrow will occur.
And all this while all of us are facing redundancy shortly, with no info from the BACON board......
As for the runway conditions, I believe all the flight decks of whatever colour are making the right decision, despite making my job very interesting...
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Can I just say that after spending all day at work today, I was appalled at how much 'non-information' we received from BIA ops.
Our a/c went down to XXX this morning, whilst it was away we were trying to get a reasonable answer as to what the hell was going on. The impression I got was that BIA were preying for us not to divert as we would be 'another on the list', rather than assist us with the real issue!
We eventually pulled the plug for brummie land 1 hour before ETA.
I got home to see Mr Skip (in a very awkward situation
) on tv commenting live about EZY, EZY and EZY, not a dicky on the other 4 carriers!! 
ALL THE BEST!
Our a/c went down to XXX this morning, whilst it was away we were trying to get a reasonable answer as to what the hell was going on. The impression I got was that BIA were preying for us not to divert as we would be 'another on the list', rather than assist us with the real issue!
We eventually pulled the plug for brummie land 1 hour before ETA.
I got home to see Mr Skip (in a very awkward situation
) on tv commenting live about EZY, EZY and EZY, not a dicky on the other 4 carriers!! ALL THE BEST!
Last edited by WindSheer; 5th Jan 2007 at 20:44.
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I think the point here today is that a major airline which asserts it puts safety first actually demonstrably has. In doing so it has led the line with other companies and the regulator left to follow suit.
We can only applaud easyJets decision. Often we criticise those in management for various reasons, many justified, but today I've got to say that I'm proud of ours and the decision they took. The opposite would seem to be true of the airport management. They seem to have no grasp of what the appalling consequences deniing this problem might be. Two offs, an overrun, an aircraft reporting loss of control for 300m and several MORs all within a compressed time period surely warn us all.
The Notam now clearly states that the runway is slippy when wet so I can only imagine that our legal friends would have a field day if someone was hurt or killed as a result of an incident with an aircraft landing or taking off.
Thankfully EZY have now drawn a line under things and perhaps prevented a tragedy. It will be fascinating to watch the fallout as the airport management run for cover.
I'd agree that handling agents and airlines often treat passengers poorly and do not always keep people informed. However often situations change rapidly and the ground staff are often as much in the dark as the passengers.
Safe flying all
We can only applaud easyJets decision. Often we criticise those in management for various reasons, many justified, but today I've got to say that I'm proud of ours and the decision they took. The opposite would seem to be true of the airport management. They seem to have no grasp of what the appalling consequences deniing this problem might be. Two offs, an overrun, an aircraft reporting loss of control for 300m and several MORs all within a compressed time period surely warn us all.
The Notam now clearly states that the runway is slippy when wet so I can only imagine that our legal friends would have a field day if someone was hurt or killed as a result of an incident with an aircraft landing or taking off.
Thankfully EZY have now drawn a line under things and perhaps prevented a tragedy. It will be fascinating to watch the fallout as the airport management run for cover.
I'd agree that handling agents and airlines often treat passengers poorly and do not always keep people informed. However often situations change rapidly and the ground staff are often as much in the dark as the passengers.
Safe flying all
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Having seen Skippy's interview I am left speechless with the man's hypocrisy.
"Safety is our greatest concern......................"yeah, yeah, yeah
Three weeks ago having myself had an alarming arrival which only saw any meaninful decelaration with 900 metres of runway left I exchanged comments with Tower and said I was filing an MOR. The controller said he was pleased about this as it would lend weight to the many representations already being made to airport management that the runway at BRS is unsafe.
Skippy and his mates have been sitting on a powder keg and they deserve every vilification that is thrown at them. They have been playing Russian Roulette with our lives and those of our pax and it is to the very great credit of the EJ pilots and those who have followed to have said that we are not prepared to put up with this any more.
This is quite unprecedented in the anals of aviation.
I am left wondering if what has happerned at BRS might just be the start of something quite significant.
At the end of the day the buck stops with us at the sharp end. We are under so much pressure to perform now with assaults on our professional judgement from all directions and Europe trying to drive a horse and cart through our already inadequate FTL directions.
Could this be the beginning of an outbreak of common sense where we the pilots actualy determine what is or what is not safe and act accordingly?
I think all this goes a lot further than the immediate issue of a scabby runway at BRS and its incompetent mangement.
"Safety is our greatest concern......................"yeah, yeah, yeah
Three weeks ago having myself had an alarming arrival which only saw any meaninful decelaration with 900 metres of runway left I exchanged comments with Tower and said I was filing an MOR. The controller said he was pleased about this as it would lend weight to the many representations already being made to airport management that the runway at BRS is unsafe.
Skippy and his mates have been sitting on a powder keg and they deserve every vilification that is thrown at them. They have been playing Russian Roulette with our lives and those of our pax and it is to the very great credit of the EJ pilots and those who have followed to have said that we are not prepared to put up with this any more.
This is quite unprecedented in the anals of aviation.
I am left wondering if what has happerned at BRS might just be the start of something quite significant.
At the end of the day the buck stops with us at the sharp end. We are under so much pressure to perform now with assaults on our professional judgement from all directions and Europe trying to drive a horse and cart through our already inadequate FTL directions.
Could this be the beginning of an outbreak of common sense where we the pilots actualy determine what is or what is not safe and act accordingly?
I think all this goes a lot further than the immediate issue of a scabby runway at BRS and its incompetent mangement.
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Just thought I'd jump in here, as a noobie you know.
I managed to get out of BRS this morning on the BA to MXP. Had to chuckle at the shop assistant in the terminal whom I overheard explaining to one couple who's EZY flight to somewhere had just been cancelled, that "it's because EasyJet's tyres can't grip in the wet, and the runway's wet where it's been redone."
Muppet.
I managed to get out of BRS this morning on the BA to MXP. Had to chuckle at the shop assistant in the terminal whom I overheard explaining to one couple who's EZY flight to somewhere had just been cancelled, that "it's because EasyJet's tyres can't grip in the wet, and the runway's wet where it's been redone."
Muppet.
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Going back to my question many days ago: No doubt, after the AAIB has had its pennyworth, it will be the insurance companies who will decide blame; or perhaps not. Someone is going to have to pay, and the insurance companies of the airport and the airlines will be able to draw their pistols at dawn. After the dust has cleared we may have an answer.
Any news on New Road's attitude to all this? Does not the Ivory Tower have an oversight of its members' safety? As for the CAA, does it not have a duty of care to UK passengers?
Any news on New Road's attitude to all this? Does not the Ivory Tower have an oversight of its members' safety? As for the CAA, does it not have a duty of care to UK passengers?
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Balerdino, welcome to PPRune - I see this is your first post. I'm interested to know why you think putting peoples lives first is "a farce"? I do not know if you have any connection with the aviation industry - but if you comments reflect your attitude to safety then I sincerely hope you are not employed in any safety critical role in any profession. 
I think "the farce" lies elsewhere, and EZY should be commended for taking the bull by the proverbials and telling BIA that they need to get their house in order. I see BA has now followed suit.
In answer to your question, I think it's a certainty that EZY, and probably most other operators will indeed transfer ops to CWL (Cardiff) when the wx precludes BRS. What else would you suggest they do - take a chance - and hope to get away with it - GET REAL!!!
A4
I think "the farce" lies elsewhere, and EZY should be commended for taking the bull by the proverbials and telling BIA that they need to get their house in order. I see BA has now followed suit.
In answer to your question, I think it's a certainty that EZY, and probably most other operators will indeed transfer ops to CWL (Cardiff) when the wx precludes BRS. What else would you suggest they do - take a chance - and hope to get away with it - GET REAL!!!
A4
If it wasnt clear in my original post then let me make it clear here, yes i also believe the farce is to do with BIA and not any of the operators, you cant argue against the safety decision the operators have taken, period.
Of course I commend it like everyone else.
Yes this is my first post, and just for the record I have previously worked in the aviation industry and personally know serving pilots with EZY , although not operating out of BRS.
The reason why I posted, and perhaps why it didnt come across as it should have, is because I was fuming. Fuming that it has been allowed to get to this situation in the first place. Fuming that as a frequent user and big supporter of the progress that both the airport and operators have made in the last few years at Bristol, that it could now be jeopardized by in my view, a completely avoidable public relations disaster. It has been obvious that there have been issues for a while, as any reader of this forum will know and even more importantly by recent events. Even Jo Public could work out that there was no way BIA was going to win up against an aviation safety issue of this kind. Why didnt BIA act decisively and early? Even if they could not have physically sorted out the problem , they still should have recognized the fact instead of sitting on their hands and hoping it would go away, that's what i think is the farcical bit!
Co-incidentally, I was on board a plane that skidded on the runway at BRS some years ago when the Newcastle flights were operated by the Dash props, so believe me I'm on your side! Which points out also, what someone else alluded to, that BRS has always been a tricky place to land in certain conditions.
Regards
Balderino
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As a blissfully unaware fare paying passenger, I was directed to this site for background reading after the cancellations at Bristol today.
My previous only concern was getting the luggage allowance right (not simple with EJ)
I've now read with open mouthed amazement at the strength of feeling regarding the management and condition of the runway at Bristol. I've also read the interview with the airport 'manager'!
From a position of complete ignorance, having never flown out of Bristol, I have booked (some time ago) with EJ flights for me and my family in Feb.
How worried should I be? Will the runway issues be resolved? Will pilots still have the strength of resolution to refuse to fly there if there are issues. Their lives are on the line also.
My previous only concern was getting the luggage allowance right (not simple with EJ)
I've now read with open mouthed amazement at the strength of feeling regarding the management and condition of the runway at Bristol. I've also read the interview with the airport 'manager'!
From a position of complete ignorance, having never flown out of Bristol, I have booked (some time ago) with EJ flights for me and my family in Feb.
How worried should I be? Will the runway issues be resolved? Will pilots still have the strength of resolution to refuse to fly there if there are issues. Their lives are on the line also.
Pax milling about at BHX
Wouln't have happened in the days of Bill the Coach and The Coach Company.
Alyhough based at MAN, all staff had airside passes and always met the pax from the aircraft and escorted them through baggage and to the waiting coaches.
I have seen staff dispatched to busy trouble spots such as BHX and EMA when lots of divs were expected in order to do the same thing.
They had flight following software in the office in order to "watch" what was going on in real time once given the heads up by a client and often told their ops that Flt xxx had diverted to xyz airport before they knew themselves.
I don't know if there is an equivalent still operating but the industry needs a dedicated, professional outfit such as The Coach Company was in order to understand the indusrt needs and not leave passengers just milling around waiting for someone to tell them where to go.
Doc C
Alyhough based at MAN, all staff had airside passes and always met the pax from the aircraft and escorted them through baggage and to the waiting coaches.
I have seen staff dispatched to busy trouble spots such as BHX and EMA when lots of divs were expected in order to do the same thing.
They had flight following software in the office in order to "watch" what was going on in real time once given the heads up by a client and often told their ops that Flt xxx had diverted to xyz airport before they knew themselves.
I don't know if there is an equivalent still operating but the industry needs a dedicated, professional outfit such as The Coach Company was in order to understand the indusrt needs and not leave passengers just milling around waiting for someone to tell them where to go.
Doc C
Speaking from the viewpoint of SLF, and a fairly regular one on EasyJet, I'd say this reflects nothing but good on them. Well done on taking what cannot have been an easy stand (at least from a commercial viewpoint) guys. 
Of course, I'd be
off if I'd been delayed or cancelled out of BRS, but it wouldn't be at EasyJet. It's really good to see an airline 'walking the walk' on an problem like this.
Of course, I'd be
off if I'd been delayed or cancelled out of BRS, but it wouldn't be at EasyJet. It's really good to see an airline 'walking the walk' on an problem like this.
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We can only applaud easyJets decision. Often we criticise those in management for various reasons, many justified, but today I've got to say that I'm proud of ours and the decision they took. The opposite would seem to be true of the airport management. They seem to have no grasp of what the appalling consequences deniing this problem might be. Two offs, an overrun, an aircraft reporting loss of control for 300m and several MORs all within a compressed time period surely warn us all.
Well done to the EZY (and other) crew and to EZY themselves for showing some guts. I sincerely hope you successfully reclaim the 300 quid I'm about to bill you for from BIA
Irrespective, I wonder how much money the airport lost today? First to disembark, got to immigration, one woman says to the other, "Look! Passengers!". Says I, "Have you had a bit of a dearth of them today then?" 
"You're the first one I've seen for five hours", says she!Bus was a tad empty too!
Wearthefoxhat...rest assured that professional airline pilots will not operate if there is any doubt or concern that cannot be resolved or mitigated to an acceptable level.
I've operated into BRS from time to time and can only admire EJ's stance as it is a marginal operation in poor weather. The BRS airport managers' comments relating to the cancellation however, defy description. He seemed to be suggesting that Easyjet the company...decided not to operate, and then suggested that it wasn't the pilots who didn't want to fly.
Come on BRS airport, get your act together...at the moment you are an embarrassment to civil aviation.
I've operated into BRS from time to time and can only admire EJ's stance as it is a marginal operation in poor weather. The BRS airport managers' comments relating to the cancellation however, defy description. He seemed to be suggesting that Easyjet the company...decided not to operate, and then suggested that it wasn't the pilots who didn't want to fly.
Come on BRS airport, get your act together...at the moment you are an embarrassment to civil aviation.