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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

Old 6th Jan 2007, 11:41
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Don't think they are because whilst my colleagues and I were trying to calm down and explain to irate pax during yesterdays fiasco that the runway according to most airlines was unsafe to use they were taxiing out behind us on ferry flights to Cardiff
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 11:56
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Pinkman,

Is it because mu meter readings are so unreliable and unreconcilable to real aircraft braking that (for example) Airbus performance precludes you from using such figures?

Is it because BRS reported the friction as "unreliable", and so must be considered "poor", thus disallowing take-off?

Or is it because aircraft slithering off the runway is a better measure of real safety. And who knows what would happen if you had an engine failure whilst on the slippery bit? I don't - but I wouldn't want to be the one to find out.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 11:56
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Bus 14, great post, really well balanced, and encapsulates how I feel about BRS and operating out of there, nice one.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 12:00
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Noiffsorbuts
Bus14...........your contribution is as farcical and misleading as it is just plain WEIRD.

"Have fun, dont crash"

Just the sort of balanced professional attitude that the fare paying public would be reassured to know is the ethos of the guy in whose hands they have placed their lives.

Go back into exile I suggest is the kindest way of putting it.
Noifs, my thanks for your most charming and eloquent reply to my post. I am indebted to you for your advice to return to exile, and indeed will be taking it. My exile was prompted by such balanced posts in the first place.

Before I do though, can I just point out that I am judged by both my peers and superiors to very much have a balanced and professional attitude. In addition to flying the line and training for my airline, the CAA judge me to be competent as an RETRE (examiner of examiners for the uninitiated), and 2 major aerospace companies judge me suitable to offer advice to their research departments on human factors issues, but hey, who are any of them to judge?

So I close, once again with:

Have fun, don't crash
Bus14

Back to lurk mode
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 12:21
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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BUS 14
like your motto.
If I stop having fun, I'll stop too.
I won't deal with your comments one by one, because, of course, your comments are accurate.
As for apps, there's no CAT 2 on 09, due rising ground and it IS as rough as f*ck both ends (but 09 is worse) if there's any south in the wind.

And as I've asked TWO times now........ WHAT are BIA going to do about the state of the runway........APART from saying that it's OK....................................which plainly it ain't!
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 13:08
  #166 (permalink)  
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Regardless of the facts, the story's out of control and the airport's in trouble. The rules are simple, these days - even if you're right and there is no real problem, take it on the chin and do whatever it takes to fix the perceived problem. The airport has to shut down, do whatever work is necessary, and come back fresh.

Otherwise, the story keeps creeping up the news - more carriers restricting services, more punters choosing not to take flights in (there is no journey for which Brizzle is the only option), and the excuses coming from management sounding more and more specious every time. They already sound like amateur hour at Club Spin; they're going to sound like a P45 in blank verse by early next week.

This is regardless of the facts.

One of the first companies to learn the rules of the new news environment was Intel with its buggy Pentium. The company was dead right - it was a very minor bug that would affect almost nobody, and absolutely no reason to recall all the chips. The customers thought differently - and, after a brief and very embarrasing battle in public, they won hands down.

R
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 13:48
  #167 (permalink)  
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Just heard Eric Moody being interviewed on Sky.

He was saying that BRS had two choice wrt to resurfacing. Either shut the airport for 10 days or resurface it bit by bot every night.

He was implying that because they chose the latter that safety was compromised.

That must be rubbish because LTN have just been through the exact same thing with no problems at all.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 14:02
  #168 (permalink)  
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Check out post 148 by Overrun.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 14:43
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fmgc
Just heard Eric Moody being interviewed on Sky.

He was saying that BRS had two choice wrt to resurfacing. Either shut the airport for 10 days or resurface it bit by bot every night.

He was implying that because they chose the latter that safety was compromised.

That must be rubbish because LTN have just been through the exact same thing with no problems at all.
and Liverpool are doing it this winter too!
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 15:02
  #170 (permalink)  
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Okay, let's try that again...

Explanation from an engineer of the difference between Luton and Bristol (and maybe Liverpool) "resurfacing":

Originally Posted by OverRun
The BBC news suggested that the runway was being strengthened to cope with increased traffic. Together with the long period for the works of 5 months, this would explain the need to lay basecourse asphalt before eventually laying surfacing asphalt and grooving it. However this sort of large scale work is described as reconstruction or rebuilding, not as resurfacing. Reconstruction is a whole different ball game. While resurfacing usually happens while the runway is left in service, reconstruction is not.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 15:13
  #171 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fmgc
That must be rubbish because LTN have just been through the exact same thing with no problems at all.
Same contractor too I believe.

I've heard elsewhere that this middle section is not the final surface which presumably why it hasn't been grooved. Are they attempting to improve the profile of the runway as well?

Back in 1989 Luton raised the eastern end of the runway by 130cm so it does happen.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 15:25
  #172 (permalink)  

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HundredPercentPlease: If the Mu meter readings are as you say, why is this machine still used world wide,to assess runway surfaces, also any idea what else can be used instead to measure runway friction?
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 15:29
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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So, most operators who use jets have stopped at Bristol at the moment -good call, safety has to be number 1 priority. I notice that Astreus are being reported by the BBC as still running. Are their superior beings flying the Astreus kit? Why do they think they're above everyone else?
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 16:17
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ranger 1
HundredPercentPlease: If the Mu meter readings are as you say, why is this machine still used world wide,to assess runway surfaces, also any idea what else can be used instead to measure runway friction?
Ranger 1, I'm sorry, I am only repeating what my operator (EZY) and Airbus tell me - I am no expert. We are only to use friction readings for establishing crosswind limits - for all other runway performance we use contaminant type and depth (and a laptop!).

Here's something from a very long Airbus document:

The reported μ is measured by such friction-measuring vehicles, as:
Skidometer, Saab Friction Tester (SFT), MU-Meter, James Brake Decelerometer
(JDB), Tapley meter, Diagonal Braked Vehicle (DBV). ICAO Airport Services Manual
Part 2 provides information on these measuring vehicles.
The main problem is that the resulting friction forces of an aircraft (interaction
tire/runway) depend on its weight, tire wear, tire pressure, anti-skid system efficiency
and… ground speed. The only way to obtain the aircraft’s effective μ would be to use
the aircraft itself in the same takeoff conditions, which is of course not realistic in daily
operations.
Another solution is to use one of the above-mentioned vehicles, but these
vehicles operate at much lower speeds and weights than an aircraft. Then comes the
problem of correlating the figures obtained from these measuring vehicles (reported
μ), and the actual braking performance of an aircraft (effective μ).
To date, scientists have been unsuccessful in providing the industry with
reliable and universal values. But tests and studies are still in progress. This is why
Airbus publishes contaminated runway information as a function of the type of
contaminant and depth of contaminant, and not as a function of the aircraft’s effective
μ.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 16:36
  #175 (permalink)  
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Flying Monkeys

You single out Astraeus as continuing to operate.

The BBC news state these airlines: Astraeus, Aer Arran, Ryanair, Air South West, Aurigny, Continental and Flybe are still flying from the airport.


Regards
Exeng

Last edited by exeng; 6th Jan 2007 at 16:37. Reason: Typo
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 16:38
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Self Loading Freight
Regardless of the facts, the story's out of control and the airport's in trouble. The rules are simple, these days - even if you're right and there is no real problem, take it on the chin and do whatever it takes to fix the perceived problem. The airport has to shut down, do whatever work is necessary, and come back fresh.

Otherwise, the story keeps creeping up the news - more carriers restricting services, more punters choosing not to take flights in (there is no journey for which Brizzle is the only option), and the excuses coming from management sounding more and more specious every
Well, it's definatly in the tabloids now. ITV National news (terrestrial) have just had it as one of their headlines!
(Saturday 6th Jan '07, 17:30)
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 16:39
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Bristol safe for some but not others?

There is obviously a safety issue at Bristol so why are

Continental

KLM

Ryanair

Air South West

Aer Arran

FlyBe

Aurigny

Austrain Airlines

Eastern

still flying in and out?
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 16:49
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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ummmmmmm...... GREED ?????
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 17:27
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Gabbai

To be fair, I think you'll find quite a number of the airlines in the "still operating" list use turboprops which could stop in a fraction of the available runway, so there's much less of an issue for them.
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Old 6th Jan 2007, 17:36
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Angel Jets still flying

Outoftheblue22 you are right but why are Continental, for example, still flying and why don't the idiots running Bristol explain to the media what is going on instead of saying they are working with the airlines? Most of the airlines are running away as fast as they can.
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