Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
LEXINGTON, Ky...........Three police officers, two at the airport and one from the city police, were “instrumental” in saving the life of the copilot, the only survivor, Scott Lanter, chief of airport security. He said the three officers observed movement in the front of the aircraft and extricated the first officer from the nose. The three officers did not have to enter the plane, he said.
Lexington Herald Leader - Farm owner: Plane “used wrong runway”
The owner of the farm where Comair Flight 5191 crashed said.... the plane hit an 8-foot fence between his property and the airport, and clipped several trees......
He said the crash location is a “straight line” from the start of the smaller runway to where the airplane landed on his farm.
Lexington Herald Leader - Farm owner: Plane “used wrong runway”
The owner of the farm where Comair Flight 5191 crashed said.... the plane hit an 8-foot fence between his property and the airport, and clipped several trees......
He said the crash location is a “straight line” from the start of the smaller runway to where the airplane landed on his farm.
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According to CBS News, crew acknowledged clearance for 22. Orr (referred to below) is a CBS Correspondent.
Link to full story
A little after 6 a.m., flight controllers gave the pilots clearance to take off from runway 22 and the pilots acknowledged the controllers with a "roger," Orr reports. However, it appears the pilots took off from runway 26, which is only half the size of the 7,000 foot runway 22.
Sources tell Orr the radar tape and debris from the crash site suggest the plane never got airborne, that instead it went off the end of the runway and through a retaining area before settling into the crash site where it seems a significant post-crash fire erupted.
Orr adds that two flights took off from the correct runway (22) just prior to the Comair flight's departure.
Sources tell Orr the radar tape and debris from the crash site suggest the plane never got airborne, that instead it went off the end of the runway and through a retaining area before settling into the crash site where it seems a significant post-crash fire erupted.
Orr adds that two flights took off from the correct runway (22) just prior to the Comair flight's departure.
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For those of you yapping about low time FO's, the guy was hired in 2002. So he should have had lots of time in the A/C. What they should really be looking for is distractions caused by management that is threating these guys carreers.
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no one is trying to place blame...
if a takeoff was made on the short runway, questions about pilot fatigue, procedures (checking compass on runway lineup) airport markings, signage and so forth come to mind.
no one wanted this crash, but we must prevent another with speaking out about things like fatigue/crew rest/ stand up over nights etc
jon
if a takeoff was made on the short runway, questions about pilot fatigue, procedures (checking compass on runway lineup) airport markings, signage and so forth come to mind.
no one wanted this crash, but we must prevent another with speaking out about things like fatigue/crew rest/ stand up over nights etc
jon
must be all of a couple of hours since the accident and already everybody racing to speculate the cause and where/who the possible blame lies with, how sad.
At least have some respect and wait for the FACTS to emerge!!. And as for feeding CNN or any other news channel with speculation, im sure the media are well capable of creating whatever glorified story they feel fit with the limited information they have!!.
Thoughts go out to the families of the passengers and crew, and fingers crossed for the recovery of the remaining survivor.
Im sure we can all agree on that one.
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The aircraft described in the Press Conference this morning by the President of Comair was reported to have been delivered in 2001. That means it is a 200 series aircraft as Bombardier did not manufacture the 100 series at that time.
The 100 was discontinued in the mid 90s.
Nothing seems to be outstanding in this accident at least up to the point where it was reported that the aircraft departed on the shorter runway.
If true, I can't imagine anyone with the CRJ operational experience this crew is reported to have had, operating into and out of Lexington on a regular basis would have ever entertained the idea of departing off the shorter runway at or near gross weight. The performance margin just isn't there. This aircraft, which does NOT have high lift leading edge slats, uses an incredible amount of runway to achieve V1 at high gross weights.
Using manufacture’s data, the ASD req’d for both 51,000 and 53,000 lbs is 5,900 feet.
The declared distance for Rwy 26 is 3500 feet of runway.
V1 at Flap 8 is approximately 148 KIAS and with F20 it is 137 KIAS. (I believe Comair has the 4 flap settings option, which means F20 is the first flap setting and the setting Comair are most likely to use for takeoff) It should also be mentioned that at 25 Celcius and 947' ASL the aircraft weight is limited to approximately 49,800 pounds on a 6,000 ft runway. What would the weight limit and V1 speed be for a 3500 ft runway?
It should also be pointed out that all AFM data is based on a 6000 ft runway. That's the kind of takeoff run this regional jet uses.
Willie
The 100 was discontinued in the mid 90s.
Nothing seems to be outstanding in this accident at least up to the point where it was reported that the aircraft departed on the shorter runway.
If true, I can't imagine anyone with the CRJ operational experience this crew is reported to have had, operating into and out of Lexington on a regular basis would have ever entertained the idea of departing off the shorter runway at or near gross weight. The performance margin just isn't there. This aircraft, which does NOT have high lift leading edge slats, uses an incredible amount of runway to achieve V1 at high gross weights.
Using manufacture’s data, the ASD req’d for both 51,000 and 53,000 lbs is 5,900 feet.
The declared distance for Rwy 26 is 3500 feet of runway.
V1 at Flap 8 is approximately 148 KIAS and with F20 it is 137 KIAS. (I believe Comair has the 4 flap settings option, which means F20 is the first flap setting and the setting Comair are most likely to use for takeoff) It should also be mentioned that at 25 Celcius and 947' ASL the aircraft weight is limited to approximately 49,800 pounds on a 6,000 ft runway. What would the weight limit and V1 speed be for a 3500 ft runway?
It should also be pointed out that all AFM data is based on a 6000 ft runway. That's the kind of takeoff run this regional jet uses.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 27th Aug 2006 at 18:44.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
MONTREAL, Aug 27 (Reuters) - Canadian plane and train maker Bombardier Inc. said the 50-seat CRJ-100 regional jet in Sunday's deadly crash in Lexington, Kentucky, was delivered new to Comair in 2001. Bombardier, the world's third-largest civil aircraft maker and No. 1 manufacturer of trains, said the jet was delivered Jan. 30 of that year.
Last edited by ORAC; 27th Aug 2006 at 18:56.
Psychophysiological entity
Just a thought...and that's it is...would the crew normally accept a T/O from the intersection? My thinking is this.
Looking at the layout of the taxiways, they would have made a far greater miscalculation, if they had muddled the runways while taxiing to the end. If they had gone for the intersection, it would have been far easier to make this error.
Looking at the layout of the taxiways, they would have made a far greater miscalculation, if they had muddled the runways while taxiing to the end. If they had gone for the intersection, it would have been far easier to make this error.
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This is the accident aircraft, a CRJ-200ER. N431CA, S/N 7472. The registration number and S/N came from the President of Comair.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0889583/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0803068/M/
These are the basic specs for this aircraft, including the takeoff field length for the CRJ-200ER.
http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en...d=en&crjId=200
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0889583/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0803068/M/
These are the basic specs for this aircraft, including the takeoff field length for the CRJ-200ER.
http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en...d=en&crjId=200
Last edited by Flight Safety; 27th Aug 2006 at 19:08.
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From CNN.com :
The Bombardier Canadian Regional Jet (CRJ)-200 was cleared to take off from runway 22, which is more than 7,000 feet long, the sources said.
Instead, it took off from runway 26, which is 3,500 feet long, the sources said.
That length is "pretty short for that type of aircraft," former National Transportation Safety Board Vice Chairman Bob Francis told CNN.
Lanter confirmed that the crash site was at the end of runway 26 but would not speculate from which runway the flight took off.
"Part of the investigation will establish what runway they were using," Lanter said. "Based on the information we received for the incident, we don't know what runway they were using."
Asked about the possibility that the wrong runway was used, Bornhorst told reporters, "I think that is a rumor and speculation that would be not good for any of us to go down right now."
NTSB investigators could take up to a year before formally ruling on the cause of the crash.
The Bombardier Canadian Regional Jet (CRJ)-200 was cleared to take off from runway 22, which is more than 7,000 feet long, the sources said.
Instead, it took off from runway 26, which is 3,500 feet long, the sources said.
That length is "pretty short for that type of aircraft," former National Transportation Safety Board Vice Chairman Bob Francis told CNN.
Lanter confirmed that the crash site was at the end of runway 26 but would not speculate from which runway the flight took off.
"Part of the investigation will establish what runway they were using," Lanter said. "Based on the information we received for the incident, we don't know what runway they were using."
Asked about the possibility that the wrong runway was used, Bornhorst told reporters, "I think that is a rumor and speculation that would be not good for any of us to go down right now."
NTSB investigators could take up to a year before formally ruling on the cause of the crash.
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must be all of a couple of hours since the accident and already everybody racing to speculate the cause and where/who the possible blame lies with, how sad.
At least have some respect and wait for the FACTS to emerge!!. And as for feeding CNN or any other news channel with speculation, im sure the media are well capable of creating whatever glorified story they feel fit with the limited information they have!!.
Thoughts go out to the families of the passengers and crew, and fingers crossed for the recovery of the remaining survivor.
Im sure we can all agree on that one.
At least have some respect and wait for the FACTS to emerge!!. And as for feeding CNN or any other news channel with speculation, im sure the media are well capable of creating whatever glorified story they feel fit with the limited information they have!!.
Thoughts go out to the families of the passengers and crew, and fingers crossed for the recovery of the remaining survivor.
Im sure we can all agree on that one.
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Not sure of the accuracy, but the local news guy was saying that the taxiway going to the end of RW22 is closed, access to RW22 is now via the taxiway that cuts across the approach end of RW26 due to a new displaced threshold for RW22.
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Just a thought...and that's it is...would the crew normally accept a T/O from the intersection? My thinking is this.
Looking at the layout of the taxiways, they would have made a far greater miscalculation, if they had muddled the runways while taxiing to the end. If they had gone for the intersection, it would have been far easier to make this error.
Looking at the layout of the taxiways, they would have made a far greater miscalculation, if they had muddled the runways while taxiing to the end. If they had gone for the intersection, it would have been far easier to make this error.
Surely this is unlikely, since no taxiway leads directly to the intersection, allowing a choice of runway.
Isn't it more likely that the pilot turned three-quarters left at the earlier junction with the shorter runway, instead of pressing on to the next junction at end of the longer one, when precisely the same three-quarters left turn would have been needed.
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Dream Land, right, the taxiway to 22 now crosses right over the end of 26.
Various news agencies are now reporting airport parameter fence damage and treetop damage just past the end of 26.
Various news agencies are now reporting airport parameter fence damage and treetop damage just past the end of 26.
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(3) The takeoff run must not be greater than the length of the runway.
A salutory FAR reminder that the bleeding obvious may not always be obvious.
Can anyone confirm if this was the longest period in US jet transport history without a passenger fatality - some 4.5+ years?
R.I.P.
A salutory FAR reminder that the bleeding obvious may not always be obvious.
Can anyone confirm if this was the longest period in US jet transport history without a passenger fatality - some 4.5+ years?
R.I.P.
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Another issue that comes to mind is the jumpseat rider. Assuming it was a pilot, it should have given another set of eyes to catch any mistakes.
Was it possibly an offline rider who needed assistance with his or her shoulder harness just as the plane took the runway for takeoff? I needed help figuring out the jumpseat last time I rode in an RJ cockpit. Not even sure if Comair allows offline cockpit riders under the post 9/11 CASS system.
A cockpit jumpseat rider can be a help, but the rider can also be a distraction. An online rider coming off of days off can be very chatty trying to catch up on managment's latest move to cut costs and reign in the unions.
I remember Avianca had a 727 crash in South America years ago where the captain was chatting with the jumpseat rider as the FO flew the aircraft into rising terrain. When the GPWS alert sounded, the captain famously announced 'Shutup Gringo!' and the CVR recording ended a few seconds later.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0317-0&lang=en
Was it possibly an offline rider who needed assistance with his or her shoulder harness just as the plane took the runway for takeoff? I needed help figuring out the jumpseat last time I rode in an RJ cockpit. Not even sure if Comair allows offline cockpit riders under the post 9/11 CASS system.
A cockpit jumpseat rider can be a help, but the rider can also be a distraction. An online rider coming off of days off can be very chatty trying to catch up on managment's latest move to cut costs and reign in the unions.
I remember Avianca had a 727 crash in South America years ago where the captain was chatting with the jumpseat rider as the FO flew the aircraft into rising terrain. When the GPWS alert sounded, the captain famously announced 'Shutup Gringo!' and the CVR recording ended a few seconds later.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0317-0&lang=en
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Regards
DA1-11