Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
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Looking at the airport diagram.....
Seen from the tower, wouldn't the line-up points on 22 and 26 not have been almost in line, seen from the tower?
What would the ATC have seen in the near dark? The lights of the aircraft in just about the right position. Could he have discerned the heading of the aircraft? I very much doubt it.
Even if he had been watching, he wouldn't have seen the mistake until the aircraft starting rolling... too late.
As said before, one of those occasions, where the holes in the cheese have lined up.....
I would say, leave the ATC out of it.... and take a leaf from the book of the Brits. If they have had taxyway lights for decades.... why can't the "richest country in the world" afford to impose them as well?
Penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Seen from the tower, wouldn't the line-up points on 22 and 26 not have been almost in line, seen from the tower?
What would the ATC have seen in the near dark? The lights of the aircraft in just about the right position. Could he have discerned the heading of the aircraft? I very much doubt it.
Even if he had been watching, he wouldn't have seen the mistake until the aircraft starting rolling... too late.
As said before, one of those occasions, where the holes in the cheese have lined up.....
I would say, leave the ATC out of it.... and take a leaf from the book of the Brits. If they have had taxyway lights for decades.... why can't the "richest country in the world" afford to impose them as well?
Penny-wise and pound-foolish.
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CJ
the tower would have seen an airplane with its landing lights on in the middle of a runway which had its edge lights off, extinguished, out, not lit.
america is rich, but spends money on foolish things
the tower would have seen an airplane with its landing lights on in the middle of a runway which had its edge lights off, extinguished, out, not lit.
america is rich, but spends money on foolish things
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Not a painted X, PB but the moveable 'temporary' kind which are typically inclined roughly 60deg vertical with edge lights. Hard to miss that. 26 is not permanently closed (yet !).
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CLEGG ONE STAR but no SIDs. Looking at the history of previous COM191s on flightaware.com it appears they habitually filed to BWG (Bowling Green) NDB as the first waypoint. I don't have a chart for that area but on a normal map it looks like the heading would be much closer to 220 then 260.
Psychophysiological entity
Cut from .Mr Dog's post.
I have looked at all the posts about this tragic accident since the first day. Making the assumption that the aircraft was visible, even by its lights alone, I would have watched, required or not required.
I feel that whatever the ATC guy did or didn't do, he will spend the rest of his life thinking ‘if only'. But. With an airfield that was very quiet, and the take-off of a slippery jet imminent, I would have wanted to watch it go. After 40 years in the industry, I have never grown tired of watching T/O or landings, so for someone that was involved in the movement, it just seems a little strange IMHO to turn away. Again, there is a but.... This could have been one of the few times in his career that he did turn away, some deadline may have taken precedence, only he would be able to answer that. A lot of work is already going into researching the imagery that the pilots were seeing, I guess in time we may be given the time-line and the psychology of the occurrence, but for now it's all guesswork.
the ATC could not in their wildest dreams, have imagined they might need to watch for this type of error at night with an unlit runway!! …. and IMHO they were being completely reasonable in assuming they could perform other tasks in the interim!
I feel that whatever the ATC guy did or didn't do, he will spend the rest of his life thinking ‘if only'. But. With an airfield that was very quiet, and the take-off of a slippery jet imminent, I would have wanted to watch it go. After 40 years in the industry, I have never grown tired of watching T/O or landings, so for someone that was involved in the movement, it just seems a little strange IMHO to turn away. Again, there is a but.... This could have been one of the few times in his career that he did turn away, some deadline may have taken precedence, only he would be able to answer that. A lot of work is already going into researching the imagery that the pilots were seeing, I guess in time we may be given the time-line and the psychology of the occurrence, but for now it's all guesswork.
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I think we've done about all the guesswork we can do at this stage, and several people already have said they've learnt something.... "Yes, I'll check runway heading next time"....
Let's leave it to the NTSB for a bit, and see what they come up with?
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If the clearance was a bit early and the tower looked out at that point they might have seen a plane on the taxiway just before 26 and thought yup they are enroute to the end of 22. The fact that the lights were out on 26 might have helped reinforce that view. A few seconds later and they would have seen the plane turn into 26. The early clearance may also have contributed to the crews idea they had arrived at 22.
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Cut from .Mr Dog's post.
I have looked at all the posts about this tragic accident since the first day. Making the assumption that the aircraft was visible, even by its lights alone, I would have watched, required or not required.
I feel that whatever the ATC guy did or didn't do, he will spend the rest of his life thinking if only'. But. With an airfield that was very quiet, and the take-off of a slippery jet imminent, I would have wanted to watch it go. After 40 years in the industry, I have never grown tired of watching T/O or landings, so for someone that was involved in the movement, it just seems a little strange IMHO to turn away. Again, there is a but.... This could have been one of the few times in his career that he did turn away, some deadline may have taken precedence, only he would be able to answer that. A lot of work is already going into researching the imagery that the pilots were seeing, I guess in time we may be given the time-line and the psychology of the occurrence, but for now it's all guesswork.
I have looked at all the posts about this tragic accident since the first day. Making the assumption that the aircraft was visible, even by its lights alone, I would have watched, required or not required.
I feel that whatever the ATC guy did or didn't do, he will spend the rest of his life thinking if only'. But. With an airfield that was very quiet, and the take-off of a slippery jet imminent, I would have wanted to watch it go. After 40 years in the industry, I have never grown tired of watching T/O or landings, so for someone that was involved in the movement, it just seems a little strange IMHO to turn away. Again, there is a but.... This could have been one of the few times in his career that he did turn away, some deadline may have taken precedence, only he would be able to answer that. A lot of work is already going into researching the imagery that the pilots were seeing, I guess in time we may be given the time-line and the psychology of the occurrence, but for now it's all guesswork.
Just another number
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I believe that we have spent too much of this thread discussing the ATC factors and should instead be asking why an experienced crew would take-off on the wrong runway.
Am I alone in thinking that the action of pre-flighting the wrong aircraft could have had a significant impact on this incident?
For the last 25 years I have been sitting in the back of simulators and in aircraft jump seats carrying out recurrent checks and line checks. I have noticed that if the first thirty minutes of a check goes well then the remainder of the flight tends to be relaxed with few errors. However, if the first thirty minutes goes badly, with a major mistake being made then the mistakes tend to multiply
Having wasted valuable time by getting on the wrong aircraft the crew would have been keen to get the correct aircraft on its way as soon as possible. Even though some people might say that they have done this themselve, it is not a common occurrence and the crew would have been embarassed. Their error would have been on their mind during the pre-flight and taxi.
I'm not saying that this was the cause of the accident but just that it was one of the many holes in the swiss cheese that morning.
Airclues
Am I alone in thinking that the action of pre-flighting the wrong aircraft could have had a significant impact on this incident?
For the last 25 years I have been sitting in the back of simulators and in aircraft jump seats carrying out recurrent checks and line checks. I have noticed that if the first thirty minutes of a check goes well then the remainder of the flight tends to be relaxed with few errors. However, if the first thirty minutes goes badly, with a major mistake being made then the mistakes tend to multiply
Having wasted valuable time by getting on the wrong aircraft the crew would have been keen to get the correct aircraft on its way as soon as possible. Even though some people might say that they have done this themselve, it is not a common occurrence and the crew would have been embarassed. Their error would have been on their mind during the pre-flight and taxi.
I'm not saying that this was the cause of the accident but just that it was one of the many holes in the swiss cheese that morning.
Airclues
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Unless they had a row about it - which should be on the CVR.
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airclues
there is some truth in what you said. whenever I fly or simulate I want to get there early, do the stuff and relax, take it all in, become one with the plane and the day.
hurrying up, rushing, starting off behind the mental power curve can be a disaster waiting to happen.
j
there is some truth in what you said. whenever I fly or simulate I want to get there early, do the stuff and relax, take it all in, become one with the plane and the day.
hurrying up, rushing, starting off behind the mental power curve can be a disaster waiting to happen.
j
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I understand that its all perspective...
and that is what the Tower's job is to do. Maintain perspective. On that day, they did not.
It is clear that had they maintained perspective, this would not be. But then again, if the PIC can F* up, why can't the lone tower controller?
A valid question, and one that helps fit it all in the giant scheme of things.
bt
It is clear that had they maintained perspective, this would not be. But then again, if the PIC can F* up, why can't the lone tower controller?
A valid question, and one that helps fit it all in the giant scheme of things.
bt
I'm in one of those moods
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btacon
and that is what the Tower's job is to do. Maintain perspective. On that day, they did not
and that is what the Tower's job is to do. Maintain perspective. On that day, they did not
.
. How many ATCs do you need??? . How do you limit their duties to enable them to look for the inconceivable all of the time ?? . It is not possible .
It is clear that had they maintained perspective, this would not be. But then again, if the PIC can F* up, why can't the lone tower controller?
A valid question, and one that helps fit it all in the giant scheme of things
ermm
more like statements for mine 
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could anyone reasonably expect an old airport with a new taxi way, & recent construction to facilitate pilots getting lost?
YES.
the head of the FAA said a second controller on duty woould have been watching the radar scope and not looking out the window...but wouldn't this have allowed the LOCAL (tower) controller to look out the window ?
VISUALLY SCAN THE RUNWAY to the maximum extent possible.
YES.
the head of the FAA said a second controller on duty woould have been watching the radar scope and not looking out the window...but wouldn't this have allowed the LOCAL (tower) controller to look out the window ?
VISUALLY SCAN THE RUNWAY to the maximum extent possible.
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the head of the FAA said a second controller on duty woould have been watching the radar scope and not looking out the window...but wouldn't this have allowed the LOCAL (tower) controller to look out the window ?
How many ATCs do you need???
. How do you limit their duties to enable them to look for the inconceivable all of the time ??
. It is not possible
.
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HOT DOG
rather than chastise you, I will simply remind you and all others that airplanes are usually equipped with operating LIGHTS, to be switched on at night and other condtions.
I have seen landing lights, rotating beacons, strobes, and NAVIGATION lights from miles away.
and so has every other pilot out there.
rather than chastise you, I will simply remind you and all others that airplanes are usually equipped with operating LIGHTS, to be switched on at night and other condtions.
I have seen landing lights, rotating beacons, strobes, and NAVIGATION lights from miles away.
and so has every other pilot out there.
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...and the holding points and the thresholds of rwys 22 and 26 are almost in line as seen from the tower. So what is your point? 
EDIT: in other words, estimating the distances of lights you see in the darkness is a very hard thing to do for every human, even for every pilot out there
EDIT: in other words, estimating the distances of lights you see in the darkness is a very hard thing to do for every human, even for every pilot out there
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some accounts indicate that the controller was vectoring traffic around a storm, others say the controller was doing "administrative duties"...either way if he had been visually scanning the runway, things MIGHT, I say again MIGHT< have been different.