Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
Maybe we should all be issued with a gun to shoot the other pilot with, along the lines of a nuclear missile launch facility. We could change the FBW software so that both guys flying have to make similar inputs on the controls for the aeroplane to obey them... 
This is all about trust and if you don't trust the pilots, who DO you trust?
This is all about trust and if you don't trust the pilots, who DO you trust?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folks, consider this:
Mr Terrorist has your family hostage with guns to their heads, and tells you to take 'contact lens fluid' and 'toothpaste' with you through security, and deposit it in the cistern of trap 4 in the Departures bog of terminal 3 for one of his mates to pick up, mix, and blow an aircraft up with.
OR
Take it through crew security, deposit it in a FOD bin or similar, for one of his baggage handler mates to pick up......
Food for thought huh??
While I completely agree that 90% of the security is completely ineffectual, I feel it is important to see the 'big picture' occasionally, and that maybe there is a reason for some of the seemingly crap rules!
And before someone says 'well done for giving the bad guys an idea' do you honestly think they haven't already thought of it?
Mr Terrorist has your family hostage with guns to their heads, and tells you to take 'contact lens fluid' and 'toothpaste' with you through security, and deposit it in the cistern of trap 4 in the Departures bog of terminal 3 for one of his mates to pick up, mix, and blow an aircraft up with.
OR
Take it through crew security, deposit it in a FOD bin or similar, for one of his baggage handler mates to pick up......
Food for thought huh??
While I completely agree that 90% of the security is completely ineffectual, I feel it is important to see the 'big picture' occasionally, and that maybe there is a reason for some of the seemingly crap rules!
And before someone says 'well done for giving the bad guys an idea' do you honestly think they haven't already thought of it?
Oblaaspop,
You seem to have missed the point. Whats to stop the police, military or security having exactly the same threat and leaving something airside. They don't get searched the same.
You seem to have missed the point. Whats to stop the police, military or security having exactly the same threat and leaving something airside. They don't get searched the same.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, they don't.
However, whether we like it or not, we are JUST civillians that happen to ware a uniform, they are not!
You say I'm missing the point, but surely you must admit that I DO at least have a point?????
However, whether we like it or not, we are JUST civillians that happen to ware a uniform, they are not!
You say I'm missing the point, but surely you must admit that I DO at least have a point?????
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BusyB
An alternative viewpoint would be that the police/security/etc should be given the same security screening as crew and passengers get.
Would that work for you ?
An alternative viewpoint would be that the police/security/etc should be given the same security screening as crew and passengers get.
Would that work for you ?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Age: 64
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember reading about the experiences of escaping POWs in WWII, who used to comment that they were always amazed at how much stock the Germans put on documents. If they were in apple pie order, they were usually home clear. We simply have to get away from this obsession with objects and back to people, if we are to have a chance of stopping the next outrage.
Although frustrating, it is great that, now flight crew are subjected to the same security as SLF, some changes might actually be made!
Although frustrating, it is great that, now flight crew are subjected to the same security as SLF, some changes might actually be made!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I resent having to take my shoes off to go through security, especially when the airport refuses to provide separate security for air crew and we have to do it in front of the passengers.
I think that all pilots in the UK should choose a date and refuse to take our shoes off. Watch how quickly the whole house of cards falls down and the system grinds to a halt. Maybe then someone at the DfT could explain to us why our shoes are so dangerous.
I think that all pilots in the UK should choose a date and refuse to take our shoes off. Watch how quickly the whole house of cards falls down and the system grinds to a halt. Maybe then someone at the DfT could explain to us why our shoes are so dangerous.
X Class,
If the reason we are being searched IS security then yes, they should all be searched similarly. However, if the reason we are being searched is unnecessary bloodymindedness then aircrew should be treated as police/security etc.
If the reason we are being searched IS security then yes, they should all be searched similarly. However, if the reason we are being searched is unnecessary bloodymindedness then aircrew should be treated as police/security etc.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Globaliser Don’t kid yourself. Anne Murphy was well known to the security services since her boyfriend was a known player.
In a previous role back in those days I would have pulled Miss Murphy for a close look simply for that fact. Profiling was used then and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t in use today.
Oblaaspop We are not civilians by dint of our training and role in the industry. It’s true we are not the armed service or police service, but neither is airport security. Just because one has some training and puts a uniform on does not make one impervious to being an ally to the extremists.
IMO Pilots are not above suspicion, but equally are not the ideal candidates as some would have you believe to be blackmailed into becoming mules. If a plan is too complex the more chance it has to fail. Especially if some of the participants are being forced. It’s far easier to get a young radical to apply for a job as security and far more affective since he/she can be used for more than one job. Additionally they would have a greater understanding of the security setup at the airport where they work and would know how to exploit the weaknesses of the system…come to think of it wasn’t one of those recently rounded up a security guard at LHR?
M_C
In a previous role back in those days I would have pulled Miss Murphy for a close look simply for that fact. Profiling was used then and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t in use today.
Oblaaspop We are not civilians by dint of our training and role in the industry. It’s true we are not the armed service or police service, but neither is airport security. Just because one has some training and puts a uniform on does not make one impervious to being an ally to the extremists.
IMO Pilots are not above suspicion, but equally are not the ideal candidates as some would have you believe to be blackmailed into becoming mules. If a plan is too complex the more chance it has to fail. Especially if some of the participants are being forced. It’s far easier to get a young radical to apply for a job as security and far more affective since he/she can be used for more than one job. Additionally they would have a greater understanding of the security setup at the airport where they work and would know how to exploit the weaknesses of the system…come to think of it wasn’t one of those recently rounded up a security guard at LHR?
M_C
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Upagumtree
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oblaaspop
If my family are held hostage in the scenario you describe, I expect they will be murdered as soon as I leave for work. That would give the terrorists the best chance of avoiding capture. I have already decided that, should this happen, I'll contact the police at the first opportunity. I have also decided that I won't pay for my family to have a slight chance of survival with the lives of fifty other families.
Would it not be far less trouble to let the terrorist get a job in the catering company, if they haven’t already?
The hostage method is risky and needs lots of people, planning and coordination. It’s rather different to a bank robbery.
Would it not be far less trouble to let the terrorist get a job in the catering company, if they haven’t already?
The hostage method is risky and needs lots of people, planning and coordination. It’s rather different to a bank robbery.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DH121
I would like to say that most of us would do the same, I would! But that is a situation that none of us would like to be in, and who knows how we would react.
If human semantics was that simple, the security services (and I'm talking MI5 here not Winkey Wankey Tosspot Security Services LTD), would make us sign a form stating that we would all contact them immediately should that situation ever arise.
In the absence of such a form, I guess they will just have to cater for the lowest common denominator amongst us. (and do bare in mind, aircrew from any number of God awful, nasty little countries pass through UK airport security dozens of times a day).
Again, I'm not defending the new security measures, it affects me, and pisses me off as much as anyone else, however I'm just offering a different perspective.....
If human semantics was that simple, the security services (and I'm talking MI5 here not Winkey Wankey Tosspot Security Services LTD), would make us sign a form stating that we would all contact them immediately should that situation ever arise.
In the absence of such a form, I guess they will just have to cater for the lowest common denominator amongst us. (and do bare in mind, aircrew from any number of God awful, nasty little countries pass through UK airport security dozens of times a day).
Again, I'm not defending the new security measures, it affects me, and pisses me off as much as anyone else, however I'm just offering a different perspective.....
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe its time to stop spouting off and write a letter to your MP as I believe the D of T would have to respond. There’s the added benefit if we all do it they even might get as pissed of us we are, at having to reply to everyone’s MP
Quite frankly all you lot talking about crew's families being held hostage to force the pilot to crash his plane.... have been watching too many Holywood action movies.
...And then trying to justify the farce that passes for airport security with these arguments. Jeez!
The problem is that this is exactly the type of thinking that is behind current airport "security". And we have to live with the results (and lets not forget, the expense) everyday.
...And then trying to justify the farce that passes for airport security with these arguments. Jeez!
The problem is that this is exactly the type of thinking that is behind current airport "security". And we have to live with the results (and lets not forget, the expense) everyday.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Oblaaspop
True, they don't.
However, whether we like it or not, we are JUST civillians that happen to ware a uniform, they are not!
You say I'm missing the point, but surely you must admit that I DO at least have a point?????
However, whether we like it or not, we are JUST civillians that happen to ware a uniform, they are not!
You say I'm missing the point, but surely you must admit that I DO at least have a point?????
What makes them special? They have training and so do we. Trained on weapons, well many of us were as well while in the military. I still have the Expert badge that I earned with both the rifle and pistol on the range. Would go up against any police marksman on the range anytime. Why are they special?
You do have a point. .000001% of the flight crew might waffle and take a tube of toothpaste or the like into the secure area for someone. That is why the crew needs to have at least random searches. Please tell me what is to stop one of the security staff, who undergo NO searches, from smuggling something into the terminal? Same for the police and so on.
Right now I can go on Ebay, buy a badge, go to a costume shop and buy or rent a policeman's uniform and cobble up something that is close enough to get me in some if not most secure areas.
Before you scoff at this, look here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PRESTON-BOROUGH-...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Metro-Police-Bad...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Metropolitan-Pol...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/British-ROYAL-MI...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Royal-Military-P...QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.uniwearonline.com/index.p...a6641d8c188e1b
http://www.arslan.com/policeuniform.htm
http://www.uniformsbypark.com/Mercha...ategory_Code=4
Yes, some of the above are an older style of badges or military uniform. You think that someone who is not a policeman would realize this? In America we have the National Guard roaming the terminals. Getting a guard uniform is so easy, and making a duplicate of their ID is not difficult. Please tell me what I am missing here that makes some trust the police/army so much? They are never searched and we are! Just who is more secure?
If our family were being held hostage, the rest of us would call the police and stop the whole event from happening.
LL is correct, this is more a Hollywood movie fantasy than a real chance of happening. Dh121 is correct as well. Excuse me, they are talking about blowing up an ENTIRE AIRLINER FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE and you think that they are going to let your family go out of the "goodness of their heart"???? They have no compassion or heart and are willing to die for their sick religion.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Chester
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was never a suggestion that Anne Murphy was 'turned' into trying to blow up the El Al flight out of LHR, as some fantasists on this site would love to believe. She was a pregnant, naive Irish woman who was duped by her terrorist boyfriend Nizar Hindawi. As has already been stated, she was caught by excellent profiling. And that was in 1986.
There is no reason why professional pilots are any more likely to be 'turned' (or to suddenly get a taste for a quick 'jihad' on the LHR-AMS) that the airport Police, security staff or caterers. Given the ethnic make up of the latter two groups at LHR, I'm not so sure actually. Forget about family hostage taking - it's Hollywood stuff plus the occasional organised criminal bank robbery. Focus on the ideology and those likely to sympathise/empathise with it.
It's clear that many of the posters on Pprune haven't a clue about what really happens airside, once a crew gets through security. Don't forget that the cabin crew who've just been relieved of their lipsticks are now responsible for a security search of the entire cabin, while my external walk-round is as much a security matter as a 'what's fallen off' examination.
My signature on the final security form should clearly count for something. If it means that I'm satisfied the aircraft is safe for the 200 pax to board, please allow me to decide if my toothpaste and deodorant are also safe.
There is no reason why professional pilots are any more likely to be 'turned' (or to suddenly get a taste for a quick 'jihad' on the LHR-AMS) that the airport Police, security staff or caterers. Given the ethnic make up of the latter two groups at LHR, I'm not so sure actually. Forget about family hostage taking - it's Hollywood stuff plus the occasional organised criminal bank robbery. Focus on the ideology and those likely to sympathise/empathise with it.
It's clear that many of the posters on Pprune haven't a clue about what really happens airside, once a crew gets through security. Don't forget that the cabin crew who've just been relieved of their lipsticks are now responsible for a security search of the entire cabin, while my external walk-round is as much a security matter as a 'what's fallen off' examination.
My signature on the final security form should clearly count for something. If it means that I'm satisfied the aircraft is safe for the 200 pax to board, please allow me to decide if my toothpaste and deodorant are also safe.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think most of us agree that a pilot could crash his aircraft at almost any time he likes, and no amount of examining peoples shoes is going to stop that from being a possibility. What concerns me is the intelligence of the people that think otherwise! Thus with the level of intelligence currently shown by the security, the terrorists don't have to be too bright either. What we need is some intelligent people in the security making some intelligent decisions.
Bob
Bob
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Originally Posted by Desperate
She was a pregnant, naive Irish woman who was duped by her terrorist boyfriend Nizar Hindawi. As has already been stated, she was caught by excellent profiling. And that was in 1986.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
She was pulled because she was travelling alone, pregnant, not really sure what she was going to do when she got to Tel Aviv and didn't have the kind of contact details for the other end that you would expect of someone on that kind of visit. Classic profiling.