If I was the boss of KLM...
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ICURA & Dutchie, not being a pilot, I cannot say what the VNV does and doesn't do.. .. .On the previous page there was a question as to what the word VNV means. . .I went to their website, copied the name from there in Dutch and English, so the ppruner who wanted to know got his answer.. .. .My second comment says exactly how I personally feel about the VNV. I have flown for 20 years now, and seen the difference between how the VNV represents it's members and how my own union does it. The Cabin Crew Union might be the biggest one looking at the numbers, but they have in no way the same clout the VNV has. While the CC union is certainly well meaning and has become more professional off late, it does not have the determination nor the professionalism of the VNV.. .. .Looking at it from the outside, I can only wish my own union were more like the VNV.. .. .Any moral judgement on the VNV's points of view, as well as informed comment on it's actions, I am happy to leave to it's members.
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Dutchie, not sure how up to date you are on what the VNV stands for. Your x, y comparison is something that the VNV has recognized and implemented for at least four years now. The agreed production split is arranged along Key, Anchor, Tactical, Aero Political, and Leisure partners. A conflict could be heading our way this summer because KLM is not holding up their end of the deal. . .If you are referring to the way things are done in the States (ALPA, having different chapters at each airline) lets keep a bit of perspective on the Dutch situation, airline bases and sheer airline size are just two reasons why this is so in the USA. Plus the whole scene is owned by KLM (no offense to Shreiner or DutchBird). We just don’t have the scale.. . . .As far as the VNV sitting side by side with our KLM management, I must say I am not comfortable with the situation especially over the last year. The lines are getting more blurred on where KLM begins and the VNV starts. But again the problem is cultural as much as organizational. The “polder model” of negotiation has had its longest time. But that does not mean that it is a union’s job to maximize the return for the members and in the process hurt the company.. .. .Your comment about the VNV being a KLM union, that is largely true, with more then 2/3 of its members flying for KLM mainline. Also KLM has the best salary and benefit package and as is ALPA policy the idea is to pull the package up not down-market for all. Your assessment that the VNV screwed KLC pilots; I know for a fact that there are at least 250 junior KLM pilots who feel that the VNV screwed them over on the same seniority question. Just look at any other major airline and the way they integrate their regional pilots into their lists (not) and I can fairly conclude that KLC pilots received as much as they could have gotten (more then they had). And the Dutch courts have agreed with this assessment. I for one wish we would have kept the peace and just stayed with the old integration scheme. KLM assessment after four years then put on the bottom of the list and transfer after another four years. So KLM mainline after 8 KLC years. Any further integration of KLM daughter airline’s pilots has been done great harm by the KLC episode. . .. .I want to make sure that I don’t treat on any long toes, the quality of pilots is undoubtedly the same across the group, but KLM mainline operation has the most to offer and the benefit for mainline pilots with further integration is of questionable value. I hope my union VNV will explain it to me. The bidding is only up into mainline; KLM junior experienced pilots can not bid into KLC captaincy positions. I can see the benefit for KLM repositioning its assets along mainline, regional, low-cost and leisure lines. But the pilot seniority issue is so incredibly sensitive. I would guess that a KLMuk pilot would not accept an arbitrary date at which his integration date into the KLM seniority list starts (say the forming of a new KLC/KLMuk airline), even if it opens up the mainline aircraft open to him/her. This was the case with KLC pilots as well, and there was an integration model already in place. I would truly love to hear from my valued colleagues at KLMuk and Transavia on what they would feel would be an acceptable integration model to them, that way we are clear on what we are talking about.. .. .Sorry about the length.
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All this talk about regional airlines joining together, reminds me of something that has already happened in the UK. From what I hear that is turning into a disaster. Hopefully KLM will look at that and learn from it?
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Some people actually CHOOSE not to fly for KLM... Some people don't like to fly long-haul, but prefer to stay at home as much as possible... . .. .Think about it, not everybody will be happy about being sucked into the big nothingness called KLM. I rather like knowing most of my collegues... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
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Heard that one before. Nobody forces anybody to fly long-haul at KLM. As a Co-pilot your pay is independent of what fleet you fly. And as a Boeing 737 Captain you are well ahead of other operators of the type in Holland. If indeed you choose to bypass KLM mainline you are a small minority indeed. The integration envisioned by our management would probably entail the operational merger of KLMuk and KLC. This merger would increase the size of the combined airline well past KLM’s mainline Boeing 737 fleet. Would you then move on?. .. .You asked me to think about the big blue void. I did and your arguments are at best relevant for a very small minority. For people who do not move on to KLM mainline, things like becoming a co-pilot again, and age also play a role. If people have the choice at the time of flying either for KLM, Martinair, Transavia, or KLC I think I can be pretty confident which choice these people will make. I can tell you I have enjoyed my fifteen years, and counting, with KLM tremendously.
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I am so saddened about what happened to the once fine airline called AirUK. Once the third largest airline in the UK with a very good reputation and loyal customer base.. .. .When KLM aquired AirUK it destroyed its domestic network and international routes and re-deployed the aircraft to amsterdam feeder routes.. .. .It was ironic that the year KLM shut all our domestic routes we won the domestic airline of the year award.. .. .Years of mis management by KLM have resulted in a small airline called KLMuk feeding amsterdam with old and worn out aircraft, poor customer service and on many occasions complete contempt for the loyal workforce and crews. While KLC has been expanding in the past few months we have again suffered. Captains have been demoted, first officers have been made redundant.. .. .BUZZ is a fantastic product being starved, it desperatly needs to expand, but the funds and resources from KLM are just not forthcoming.. .. .So what for the future? KLC needs to expand, it is short of experienced crews, by merging KLMuk and KLC lots of problems are solved, costs are reduced by operating one AOC it all makes sense, however KLM and KLC crews must learn NOT to look on us as a threat but a great asset, i am sure the VNV will oppose any merger due to the perceived threat of KLMuk pilots joining the fold, but if they were to work with us and we were to join as one pilot force job security and conditions could be improved all round.. .. .the same applies to any merger of BUZZ and Transavia, with this combination they could really take on the likes of easyjet and Go to become the real success that they so much deserve.. .. .It is up to us, the pilot workforces of KLM, KLC KLMuk, BUZZ and Transavia to work together for a common goal, lets not destroy a fantastic opportunity to create strong succesful airlines by bitter in fighting and xenophobia.. .. .The future is bright!!! Lets make it work!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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Driver1, great post. I agree the integration of KLC/KLMuk all makes sense from a business point of view (as does Basiq/Buzz, and Transavia/Martinair). And I don’t think the VNV is against any merger in and of itself. But like you my seniority number is all I have, and that is where a merger at the pilot level usually hits a brick wall. I would love to hear what the solution is to a merger of the seniority list in this case. As I mentioned the whole integration process was done a great disservice by the bungled handling of the integration of the KLM/KLC lists by the VNV. It provided no benefit to mainline pilots, and many KLC pilots felt they got screwed as well, because their full seniority was not recognized. Maybe that is the true measure of a good deal, if it leaves both parties unsatisfied. One of the oldest pilot unions CALPA (Canada) fell apart over this very issue, integrating regional lists with mainline lists. So emotions aside how do we get to a solution? I will start by saying that I will fight tooth and nail for my number, and this will be the case for all concerned of that I am sure. Best of luck at KLMuk I hope we find some wisdom and make the whole KLM group maximize its potential. Kind regards.
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Thanx for the reply Otterman;. .. .While i do see your point that you will fight tooth and nail for your seniority it is this very point that may cause the whole deal to collapse. We have pilots in KLMuk with 31 years service, shouldnt they and thier counterparts at KLC have some recognition for years of service? We need to work to a COMMON goal, security and a bright future for all, in any merger situation there are winners and loosers, ask British Airways about the merger of B Cal some years ago, the bitterness is still on going.. .. .my suggestion is this, perhaps the KLC and KLMuk list could be combined on a year for year basis, then the KLMuk pilots added to the bottom of the KLM mainline list in KLMuk seniority order. This protects existing KLM pilots from any threat but still allows the younger pilots in KLMuk the future of a fantastic career within KLM yet still protects the more senior pilots in KLMuk and KLC who are happy to remain flying short haul feeder routes.. .. .Also may i suggest that we get to know each other alot better, even if this is just by chatting in the Crew centre, once people get to know each other many perceived barriers are removed.. .. .Perhaps KLMuk could challenge KLM to a go kart competition??!! the winners get the seniority!! (joke!!). .. .what i am trying to say is we need to communicate so as the managers do not divide us.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 13:39: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>
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Driver1, you mentioned that there are pilots with 31 years service with AirUK/KLMuk. That is in impressive amount of time. The other question you asked; if that should not be recognized. This is where the problem starts. For KLM mainline pilots the integration does not represent added value from a career perspective. We have the big iron that represents the bigger remuneration. And as of the present time junior KLM pilots with a lot of experience can’t bid down into the left seat of KLC aircraft. The problem with any KLMuk/KLC integration is that the KLM mainline list has all the KLC pilots merged into it already. There is one list. At the moment that a KLC pilot joined he/she knew that there was an integration scheme that would allow transfer to mainline after passing their assessment after four years at KLC, and an additional four years service. It was part of their contract. Adding KLMuk pilots onto this list will be hard, because there is no pre-existing model. In order to recognize the years of service at KLMuk I would be inclined to firewall the respective fleets for a number of years (thinking along the lines of 5 years), everybody keeps what they have, nobody takes anybody’s seat. KLMuk pilots will be put at the bottom of the KLM mainline list. Any fleet increase in the regional segment would be split at a pro-rated amount between crewing of KLC and KLMuk, so career perspective is maintained for that 5 years. In the meantime the operational side would be integrated totally in the most efficient manner. So KLC and KLMuk crews interchange so even a Captain from one side could fly with an FO from the other side. After those five years, everyone should be settled with the new situation and cross bidding side-ways and up into mainline could start. Where the principal that nobody can be bumped out of their seat is upheld. This honors people in the sense that nobody looses anything, and KLM mainline positions will open up for KLMuk pilots after five years. What brought about a lot of trouble with the KLM/KLC integration was that KLM junior mainline pilots actually lost a lot of positions on the list. This was a first in KLM history, and left some deep scares. I can state that this is not likely to happen again. Once KLMuk pilots are integrated into the list, all new hires at any company would join at the new bottom. For KLM mainline pilots nothing much changes. For KLMuk pilots the big fleet will open up and they don’t lose anything that they now have.
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Otterman I can put up with your idea of a type freeze for five years, but there is no way I am going to the bottom of the list. The reasons being that if any redundancies come up it is the guys at the bottom that bear the brunt. Also, many of the pilots at klmUK have been contributing to the KLM group for much longer than the junior pilots at KLC or Mainline. Anybody who has worked for the group for less time should be junior. Nuff said!
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KLMuk is not the only camel who is trying to get its nose under the tent. I am sure all of the other junior partners will want on that list. But I can only say that I don’t care how many years you have with KLMuk or Transavia or wherever, years of service on the list is a nonstarter for not only me but I am sure the vast majority of the KLM mainline pilots. I am sure that even our KLC colleagues who wanted the same thing for themselves will be lying down in front of that plan. Maybe a good matter of perspective for them. Once again we don’t gain with any merger, while the junior partners have the potential of moving into larger equipment. If there is a way to honor the years of service within the KLM group as it relates to layoffs I can see people giving that some serious thought. Layoffs haven’t happened within the KLM group since the early sixties, but I understand your point of view. Even layoff clauses as it relates to where the excess capacity is would be acceptable to me, mainline, regional, leisure, lowcost. Of course properly covered in any collective bargaining agreement. Imhotep, I totally understand your view on this. Without a doubt I would feel the same on your side of the fence. But while this exchange has remained friendly I can also see that the positions are nearly irreconcilable, maybe leaving things as is would be better. That way I know what I can expect and so can you and all my other valued colleagues across the group. My two cents have been put in. Kind regards.
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How about we do this: . .Merge KLMuk pilots onto the KLM/KLC master senority list on a one-for-one basis with KLC pilots; that is the most senior KLMuk pilot goes under the most senior KLC pilot and so on on a alternating basis. At the same time, reserve a number of places at the bottom of the list equal to the number of pilots joining from KLMuk. At the moment when a KLMuk pilot chooses to bid a position on the 737 or larger, he or she assumes their reserved position. This should enable both the KLMuk and KLC copilots to upgrade onto the Fokkers at the same rate, which is appropriate since the addition of KLMuk aircraft will approxiamately double the size of KLC. In theory KLC pilots lose nothing - there would be twice as many captain positions but also twice as many people ahead of them on the list. Junior KLM pilots also would have twice as many KLC slots to bid (assuming that they will be able to bid them soon) and twice as many KLCers above them. They would, however, keep their priority for the big fleet. KLMuk pilots would gain the opportunity to someday join the main line, however the copilots would have some junior KLMers move onto the KLC captain slots before them, a win-lose scenario. Of course the whole salary structure would become very complicated since KLM co-pilots are paid primarily on senority, but that could probably be solved.
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otterman;. .. .the solution is quite simple. KLC are merged into the KLMuk seniority list on a year on year basis, KLC pilots remain on the mainline list as well for the purpose of transfer should they wish, KLMuk pilots are also put on the mainline list but at the bottom in seniority order.. .. .The result is two lists, one for the new combined regional airline and one for mainline, that way everyone is protected by their years of service but it does give an incentive to our junior pilots to join mainline if they wish.. .. .I do not think any noses would be put out of place by this and believe it is very fair, but please KLMuk pilots have been loyal and filling your longhaul aircraft with 27% of your passenger loads for years now, we have been decimated by KLM it is about time we had something to look foward to and some reward for our loyalty to the group.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 21:22: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>
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driver1:. .A possible sticking point with your idea is that there are a lot of junior KLM cruise relief pilots who have been with the company for five years (or more) and still never had a seat up front for take-off and landing. The VNV has promised to make KLC co-pilot positions available to them by combining the regulations concerning career paths. Where would they come onto the regional list? Most KLM pilots wish that they still had a separate senority list for the commuter division, but they don't.
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Longhaul;. .. .you got there before me!! i think our ideas are similar and certainly this can be sorted with reasonable negotiation. What we must be careful of is that we work TOGETHER and tell management our agreement, not have it dictated to us by them. perhaps it is time for me to join the VNV, do you know if this is open to KLMuk pilots?. .. .As for the CoCo's perhaps they could be included in the regional list on a year for year basis as well, but ONLY for the CoCo's otherwise it would get out of hand, . .. .As stated in a previous post there will always be winners and loosers in and merger situation, what we need to find is the best compromise.. .. .Otterman;. .. .Just to remind you, we are not Camels trying to get our nose under your tent, we didnt choose to be taken over by KLM it was forced upon us, if i had a choice i would like things as they were in the old AirUK, but then we cant turn back the clock can we.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 21:40: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>