Air Transat crew not to blame in A330 emergency landing in the Azores
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I always feel delighted if someone seeks to relief our fellow pilots from being nailed onto the wall prematurely with the message:"pilot error".. .In this case a bit caution could be needed. Not that I mistrust Portuguese investigators. I very much mistrust the press report, indeed.
Never flown A-330, but Im shure, as in our other models, there is no ECAM message like "Fuel Leak" available. Good old ECAM did a fine job and mailed correctly:"Fuel Unbalance". As said by others, QRH should have helped. Let's see, what TSB of Canada will tell us, I understand they participate in the investigation. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
F/E or not is simply not the question here, right?. .They had none.
. .Is this thread pushed ahead, if I express my personal sympathy with a 3 man cockpit (i.e + qualified F/E)? Than, I might grant you,it's nice to have someone who is doing all those work you are not dreaming of and is on deck, when problems arise and you need all assistance you might get.
Ignition override. .Hard for me to understand your english mixed with german words. I understand you still believe Airbus is paid by Europs taxpayer? Since this has been true when the company was founded, as far as I know Airbus is paying back this money for several years. In case you have other information, please give me a hint.. .Your other remark aims to an ex politician, who should have forced american airline ex CEO's to invent AB in US?. .Must be a joke or you underestimate the cleverness of american CEO's. . .
Never flown A-330, but Im shure, as in our other models, there is no ECAM message like "Fuel Leak" available. Good old ECAM did a fine job and mailed correctly:"Fuel Unbalance". As said by others, QRH should have helped. Let's see, what TSB of Canada will tell us, I understand they participate in the investigation. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
F/E or not is simply not the question here, right?. .They had none.
. .Is this thread pushed ahead, if I express my personal sympathy with a 3 man cockpit (i.e + qualified F/E)? Than, I might grant you,it's nice to have someone who is doing all those work you are not dreaming of and is on deck, when problems arise and you need all assistance you might get.Ignition override. .Hard for me to understand your english mixed with german words. I understand you still believe Airbus is paid by Europs taxpayer? Since this has been true when the company was founded, as far as I know Airbus is paying back this money for several years. In case you have other information, please give me a hint.. .Your other remark aims to an ex politician, who should have forced american airline ex CEO's to invent AB in US?. .Must be a joke or you underestimate the cleverness of american CEO's. . .
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Yeah yeah, like the USAF ordering 100 767 tankers without any competition wasn't a subsidy to Boeing! Or those shifty American export tax breaks the World Trade Organisation recently ruled to be an illegal export subsidy.
Thread creep!
Thread creep!
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Tan & javelin - I think Tan's right. I seem to remember (on 340 anyway, and I think 330 is identical in this respect) mechanical back-up is just that - cables all the way.
Too lazy to try and find my FCOM ,under last year's revisions <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> but will ask our tech boffins.
Too lazy to try and find my FCOM ,under last year's revisions <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> but will ask our tech boffins.
Greetings Captain104: My comments were off-topic regarding Airbus technology.
But anyway, an article years ago in "The Wall Street Journal" claimed that a former CEO of a major US airline lost his "golden parachute" (worth millions?) during an airline buyout, because it was "alleged" that he had taken a bribe (Bestechung?) from Airbus, which is illegal under US law, with the help from a member of a certain government coalition, who was then also on the board of Airbus. That is what the article stated. The former CEO was probably the first US, or North American airline CEO to have ordered the A-320 series, according to the same newspaper article. It is best that I not mention, at least in public, the names of the two individuals.
For years I have found it very interesting that such foreign civil aircraft compete around the world (possibly at or below cost?) with the help of taxpayer subsidies, while at the same time, US tax dollars are not allowed to help US Boeing civilian aircraft (except for the development of the "707" Dash 80/KC-135 in the 50's) compete in the world market. If someone can show that this information is incorrect, then I will be glad to admit it, no sweat.
Somebody send me an e-mail if you want to find out who the two "alleged" guys are, etc. Y'all fly safe out there, and watch out for rock-filled mountains, Alpen, and so on.
Excuse me, I have a Microsoft 'mission' to fly, but first with the sluggish Wildcat or maybe the water-injected Hellcat or Corsair, if not the P-38?
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>
But anyway, an article years ago in "The Wall Street Journal" claimed that a former CEO of a major US airline lost his "golden parachute" (worth millions?) during an airline buyout, because it was "alleged" that he had taken a bribe (Bestechung?) from Airbus, which is illegal under US law, with the help from a member of a certain government coalition, who was then also on the board of Airbus. That is what the article stated. The former CEO was probably the first US, or North American airline CEO to have ordered the A-320 series, according to the same newspaper article. It is best that I not mention, at least in public, the names of the two individuals.
For years I have found it very interesting that such foreign civil aircraft compete around the world (possibly at or below cost?) with the help of taxpayer subsidies, while at the same time, US tax dollars are not allowed to help US Boeing civilian aircraft (except for the development of the "707" Dash 80/KC-135 in the 50's) compete in the world market. If someone can show that this information is incorrect, then I will be glad to admit it, no sweat.
Somebody send me an e-mail if you want to find out who the two "alleged" guys are, etc. Y'all fly safe out there, and watch out for rock-filled mountains, Alpen, and so on.
Excuse me, I have a Microsoft 'mission' to fly, but first with the sluggish Wildcat or maybe the water-injected Hellcat or Corsair, if not the P-38?
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>
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tired, Tan and Javelin,. .From my A321 FCOM:'Mechanical control of the THS is available from the pitch trim wheel at any time if either the green or yellow hydraulic system is functioning.' and: '3 independant hydraulic servojacks actuate the rudder. In automatic operation (yaw damping, turn coordination) a green servo actuator drives all 3 servojacks.. .Bottom line - you need hydraulics to stay alive!!. .Hope this helps.. .Cheers. .mcdhu
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You can always use differential power, and power changes to control the aircraft. With good crew co-ordination we have landed an A320 on a runway fater a total hydraulic failure. (in the SIM). Admittedly, the SIM conditions are not exactly what you would find in real-life e.g. ever changing winds etc etc but it does look feasable.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: 320DRIVER ]</p>
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: 320DRIVER ]</p>
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Ignition Override,
Could you pull your head in, remember that Boeing was born from military technology that was paid for by the US tax payer. As others have pointed out the US tax payer is still paying for the 767...
Pprune does not need to become a us and them over the pond forum.
A level playing field does not exist in aviation, smart people work with it, others well...
Z
Could you pull your head in, remember that Boeing was born from military technology that was paid for by the US tax payer. As others have pointed out the US tax payer is still paying for the 767...
Pprune does not need to become a us and them over the pond forum.
A level playing field does not exist in aviation, smart people work with it, others well...
Z
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mcdhu. . . .Admittedly I haven't had the time to check my 340 FCOM, but it is rather interesting that five PPruner's have slightly different perspectives on the airworthiness of the Airbus series if it loses its hydraulic system. . . . .Whenever I'm faced with an airplane problem that I'm not 100% sure of the answer, I always try to put myself in the place of the aircraft designer. Would I have designed an aircraft that would not fly if I lost all my Hydraulics'? I don't think so...
Cheers...
Cheers...
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Later model A330s or ones with updated software have an ECAM warning "FUEL FU/FOB DISCREPANCY" which comes up automatically if the difference between initial FOB and current FOB plus burn is more than 3500 kgs. The ECAM will say "FUEL LEAK - CONSIDER".
I doubt whether the Air Transat 330 would have had this update.
I doubt whether the Air Transat 330 would have had this update.
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Kimoki. .Thank you for info ECAM A-330. Had no idea about later version: FUEL LEAK-CONSIDER. If they had'nt this modification, ok. If they had it, makes it even more complicated for investigators, right?
Ignition Override. .Nothing personal. If there was bribary related to aircraft deals in US, I dont know.. .Financial background of AB is complicated and not related to this thread. Anyway, shareholders are BAE systems and EADS and some info you get at <a href="http://www.finance.eads.net." target="_blank">http://www.finance.eads.net.</a>
BTW: Why should US Airforce crews not enjoy a nice AC like Boing 767? A bit support for Boing after Sep.11th shock is ok for me. On the other hand, the planned A-400M will be build and help EADS a bit. Why not?
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain104 ]</p>
Ignition Override. .Nothing personal. If there was bribary related to aircraft deals in US, I dont know.. .Financial background of AB is complicated and not related to this thread. Anyway, shareholders are BAE systems and EADS and some info you get at <a href="http://www.finance.eads.net." target="_blank">http://www.finance.eads.net.</a>
BTW: Why should US Airforce crews not enjoy a nice AC like Boing 767? A bit support for Boing after Sep.11th shock is ok for me. On the other hand, the planned A-400M will be build and help EADS a bit. Why not?
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain104 ]</p>
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Oh come on guys! Get real. As has been posted here you need hydraulics for mechanical backup. Do you seriously believe otherwise? If so, why do not all aircraft that weigh 330/340, 777, 747 weights, have such a system? Maybe it's because you couldn't physically put enough force into the control to move it.
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Ahhh...to all of you!!. .The truth will only be known to you all when the co-pilot speaks out! Seems like the whole truth is not out yet and it probably will not be made public...to much at stake.. .Regards
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alapt. .If you could see 70 km east through the rain, you would see my face looking like this: <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> . . . .What you are indicating would explain to me the reaction of old friends who sit very close to something but tell me nothing about Air Transat. .incident. But somehow, rumours will spread one day. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain104 ]</p>
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain104 ]</p>
Ok Zeke and Captain 104, fair enough. I wasn't trying to create a major trans-oceanic debate etc. I even prefer vacationing in the old world.
One day, after I'm really fed up with the very hot (summertime) cockpits in our older planes (and ancient, very lousy APUs), with the constant sweating/dehydration in the turqoise "office", I might try the Airbus 320/319, when a lot more senior on it. It certainly has an attractive cockpit with better visibility. But for me, frequent long legs are a drag.
One day, after I'm really fed up with the very hot (summertime) cockpits in our older planes (and ancient, very lousy APUs), with the constant sweating/dehydration in the turqoise "office", I might try the Airbus 320/319, when a lot more senior on it. It certainly has an attractive cockpit with better visibility. But for me, frequent long legs are a drag.
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For those arguing about the Airbus needing hydraulics for mechanical backup - yes it does, but even a boeing needs its hydraulics, and if cables are broken how much backup is there for that?. . Also for those interested I tried the A330 "Transatlantic glide approach" in the sim last time, one thing that you might like to note is, having lost the engines because of lack of fuel you do not have the APU either, this then means you have lost ALL FLAP SELECTION bar flap1!. .I tried this from 15,000' /45nmls from LGW and made it with no problem (had to S turn to lose height). I aimed for 5nmls/1500' clean at green dot, then lowered the gear, landing was fast and I burst the tyres, but I was stopped and on the runway - if it was for real I would have been pretty happy with that!
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Tan, Yup, I guess that at first look it seems odd that no hyds = very bad news, but if you consider the design philosophy of the hyd system, things look a little bit brighter. The ptu,rat,ylo elec pump,blu elec pump and 2 edps make for plenty redundancy - forgive me for any omissions, I'm not looking at the fcom! Interesting debate, nevertheless! And speaking of the bright side, there was no X-wind at lgw last night!!. .Cheers all,. .mcdhu <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Jeez, I can't believe this!!. People who don't know how the flight controls work, on the very airplanes that they are flying. I wonder if this lack of knowledge extends to the other systems as well?. . .Scary.
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I can tell you one thing. The pilots are not off the hook just yet. My hat is off to them for putting that plane on the ground, it takes a huge amount of skill and Airmanship to do so, however it could have been avoided if the pilots would have done the cross-check of their fuel with the operational flight plan, specially on a long flight. Obviously there are some diferences between the flight plan fuel and the actual fuel, because there's always a lot of factors involved but you can get a close ideia of what your fuel should be. I fly for an airline (A320/1) and the fuel system although a bit diferent from the A330, it operates on the same concept and it is true that there is no warning of fuel leak on the ECAM, you might get fuel imbalance intitially followed by low fuel ecam warning. But the pilots are to blame for not cross-checking the Burn-off. I know the Airbus has it's glitches but if two lazy ass pilots are seating there, any airplane would have come down. And as for putting the Flight engineer back on. Well, that is just some ex-FE out of a job right now, thinking he would have save the day...yeah right...
The Reverend
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Dear Hugo,. .------------------------------------------------. .And as for putting the Flight engineer back on. Well, that is just some ex-FE out of a job right now, thinking he would have save the day...yeah right. .------------------------------------------------. .It seems you have not had the experience of flying with a professional flight engineer before, also have the impression that this could not have happened to you. Well my friend, I think you pipi into the wind.