Eighteen Months of Hell!!!
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This thread emphasises the fact that if you happen to be male, your chances of getting a fair hearing in any sexual harassent case are slim. There are cabin crew who have openly bragged that they would like to "earn" a couple of grand in damages if they got the chance. Even if little or no evidence is presented you are still in trouble. Sadly, the only answer seems to be to get your lawyers in early if you are ever in this unfortunate position.
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Could we have a comment on Contacted,,,,,,'s assertion that this is distasteful for exposure in a public forum. Surely openness and transparency should be applauded !. .. .Or is this symptomatic of New Labour's approach to the public airing of sleaze; it's fine if it pertains to your opponents but if it relates to the party ?????????????????????????????. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 17:26: Message edited by: Justin Cyder-Belvoir ]</small>
Uncle Pete
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I see from Contact's profile that he flies the 777 and is based in the UK. No doubt his managers are properly trained.. .. .It would therefore be a safe to assume that his employers would not place him in the unenviable position that I found myself. . .. .Thank goodness for early retirement!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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MP,. .. .Firstly, my deepest sympathy to you and your family.. .. .Sadly, this sort of occurrence is becoming all too common. I agree with the majority here though, name the b******s. I myself have been a victim of an in justice in the past, and my family suffered too, so I certainly understand how you feel.. .. .MP just remember, every dog has his day !. .. .Enjoy your well earned retirement.
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Have only ppruned for about 3 months,and this is my first posting;. .I can only echo the comments made by those who have flown/sim'med with pete:-Best of luck in your retirement.. .Judging by the "qualities" exhibited by this f/o,it makes me concerned for the standard of future recruitment.I'm hoping that this one was an isolated case that slipped through the net.sounds like the typical arrogant type that starts along a career path thinking they have nothing to learn,while turning their nose up at comments/suggestions made by those that REALLY have the experience.(I'm not a trainer,by the way-I just remember being in that position quite a few years ago,and feel that I have benefitted immensely from such training). .. .As for management quality;-. . . .For SOME depts.-see above para!. .Anyway,with all the fleet changes afoot I guess I could find myself sitting next to her-not a nice thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Best wishes,Pete. . -from where the M1 only goes north
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To MP and Mrs Pete. .. .A truly dreadful situation and like everyone else here I wish you every success in your retirement. You have clearly generated great respect from many of your colleagues, and I would be honoured if when I retire people felt the same about me.. .. .There is a saying that 'what goes around comes around' and I think there is an element of truth in it. Time will tell in this case. . .. .One of the difficulties of this situation is that some really good women pilots can be tarred with the same brush as the lady you have described. We have some great ones in our company who are highly respected by managers and peers alike. . .. .When I was in the RAF some years ago there was a great desire to get the first women selected for aircrew training through to the front line at any cost. Consequently, some very poor specimens got through training who, if they had been male, would never have made it in a million years. The view then prevailed for some time that all women in aviation were a joke. Eventually some degree of sanity prevailed and proper equality was applied. As the training system started to pass and fail women on demonstrated ability just like their male counterparts, the attitude to the women who got through changed significantly. Everyone recognised that they were there on ability and nothing else. There are lessons from that painful period of RAF history for everyone in aviation. It is simply counterproductive to artificially enhance the prospects of minorities (women, blacks, whoever) in top jobs when their abilities clearly do not justify their employment. Everyone can see through it, and they all end up despising the complete lack of integrity associated with such practices, however well intended. The genuine desire to bring equality ends up producing the very resentment the powers-at-be were trying to eradicate. Like I said at the beginning, there are so many fantastic women pilots about, and any manager who hangs onto a duff one because of their sex is actually doing untold damage to the cause of equality.
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Pete:. .. .It is obvious from all the responses that you have gained something money can never buy, the support and respect of your colleauges and your wife.. .. .Now in my opinion for the good of all our female colleauges who are unfairly tarred by this one person I would suggest that there are many out there who can name her, I think that would be the proper thing to do.. .. ................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
MP,. .. .Don't know you and your original post immediatly prompted an "uh oh, two sides to this one". Obviously not the case, to judge from the postings of those acquainted with you. . .. .And, again judging from those same postings, you've still got plenty of mileage left in you plus experience and that enviable skill in imparting that experience to others. "Retirement" sounds a bit premature!
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Dirty Harry, I am sorry, but I couldn't resist this, but when you said every dog has his day, did you not mean something else?. .. .Just a thought.. .. .MP, I take my hat off to you, and it can plainly be seen you are a man of integrity, and it shows with the amount of support you have recieved.. .I have also meet with this type and thank God, in my case her (in)sanity prevailed and she left the company. My experience with management was similiar, luke warm to say the the least.. .. .I feel more for those that follow you, and will have to go through the same experience no doubt, but with more disasterious consequences. I hope you have given enough people the "heads up" for this not to eventuate.. .. .As for the woman concerned, I sincerely hope she reads and knows of this thread and takes kind councel from it, and applies the lesson that she needs to learn. We are all the same professionally and by resorting to gender bias is totally dispicable.
Uncle Pete
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G.Khan,. .. .We had three lady pilots on the fleet. Two are very good friends of mine and I have the highest regard for their abilities and the manner in which they conduct themselves. One is changing ing fleets as I write and unfortunately the second is still under threat of redundancy. . .. .Yes, there is a lady trainer on another fleet. I have flown with her when she was cabin crew and again when she was first officer. Again I have the highest regard for her. She changed fleets when she was promoted to captain and then a training captain.I hear from both the training department and from the pilots who have been fortunate enough to be trained by her that she is of the highest calibre.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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Well, as most others have had their say on this one then I'll add my bit: I don'tknow Maximum Pete myself, which type of A/C he trains on or which airline he worked for. However it is totally obvious from what many others have said he is the sort of total professional who has probably forgotten more about flying than I have ever learned. I have met several such in my career and to draw knowledge, experience and wisdom from them is a privelege. But what of the young lady? Well, in view of the ineptness of the management who let this situation arise in the first place, I have no doubt that they will be fooled by her techniques into letting her have her command in due course. I just hope that I am not a passenger on the aircraft she commands in the short time she is allowed to command it. Or will all the other F/O's, trained by M.P. to the highest standards, haul her out of trouble time and time again? If this happens, she may eventually be able to claim several hundred hours IN COMMAND of a fast passenger jet. Ouch.. .. .Enjoy your retirement M.P.
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Mr and Mrs Pete,. .The only thing worse than discrimination is positive discrimination!. .Best wishes for your retirement and remember the big wheel turns, she'll get her's!. .Regards Rodders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Just a numbered other
Hi, Pete.. .. .As another of your trainees, I'd like to add my best wishes for your retirement. Is it true that only one manager managed to phone to say goodbye? And that that was only to ensure you returned all kit?. .. .I haven't flown with this female , but so many horror stories mean that some must be true. If ever a job should be won by ability, ours is it. Positive discrimination in any form is a creeping cancer of the PC age, and must be stopped.
Uncle Pete
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Ark,. .. .I had a half hour interview with my Chief Pilot as part of the termination procedure. I think that's what they call it.. .. .I did have a letter from LL but nothing from anyone else and don't expect to after this little lot.. .. .It will be "head in the sand" time again!. .. .By the way I still owe you a beer.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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MP,. .. .Judging by the huge number of unsolicited recommentations you have received, you are either a hugely respected individual deserving of immense status within our industry or a mate of The Guvnor, inventing alternative usernames in support of your own arguments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> I am convinced of the former as you have managed to keep your comments adult and dignified throughout this entire thread.. .. .My sympathies go to you and your family, It frequently worries me that a similar occasion could occur in my own career. I just cling to the old adage that "What Goes Around, Comes Around". Such Karma is rarely instant (despite what John Lennon wrote) but those who profit from misdeeds usually suffer a similar fate themselves... Eventually.. .. .Best of luck in your retirement and give yourself a pat on the back for being the kind of trainer who has bestowed upon our industry a legacy of many satisfied customers. No-one can take that away!
Could not airline pilots rightly be entitled to some form of ombudsman to assist in cases like this?. .. .This sort of ghastly nightmare probably happens an awful lot more than we ever hear of. If a situation becomes unresolved just where do pilots turn to for help? . .. .The CAA can suspend/revoke a licence in extremis. They can also suspend you on medical grounds for stress. But what happens when the airline is CAUSING that stress through bad working practices? How do you prove that?. .. .A pilot could blow the whole story to the press and blow his/her career with it. BALPA do some very good work behind the scenes; there is always the option applying legal pressure to a situation.. .. .If an external arbitrator could come into play it might just force airlines to THINK before they treat a LICENCED professional badly.. .. .At any rate, in an increasingly cost conscious industry, there is going to be a lot more of this sort of of malpractice.. .. .Post accident the fare paying public would be aghast to learn that the crew had been at such odds with each other. Imagine the wording of the subsequent AAIB report if they learnt that the airline had applied such pressure for them to fly together . . .