Eighteen Months of Hell!!!
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I know this doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but how about nobody giving any flying to this lady? Mean as it sounds, this is not the intention; as it would appear from MP's early comments that this lady's performance was below expectation - this being the case just keeping her on PNF duties might at give you one less problem to deal with - unacceptable flight path.. .. .In the broader picture though, I agree with all that this lady is not a competent member of the flight crew.. .. .As more and more women are set to come in, the industry had better set some clear lines now. Maybe IFALPA can take this up?
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An Airline has a duty of care to its passengers.. .. .If, following an accident, it were subsequently proved that pilots between whom a serious difficulty existed, were forced to work with each other against their better judgement, the Company could be held negligible in law.. .. .The trouble is, Companies see it as the thin end of the wedge. If they allow people with serious issues not to fly together, then they fear it will quickly degenerate into everyone just avoiding those with whom they are not 'best buddies'. Another expmple of management not affording us the professional respect that most of us deserve. Anyway, they perceive the risk of a CRM related 'incident' as less damaging than the risk of their rostering system descending into chaos!. .. .Lord 'elp us!
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Ok Pete a rundown on RAF training in management for pilots. It isnt meant to be absolutely accurate to the last detail but will give you an idea of what goes on. Anyone else care to comment?. .. .Basic management training starts during the initial Officer training course; this involves the study of the theory behind leadreship and the practical application of leadership techniques. Routine administration and office practice is also covered quite extensively during this phase as is the application of the law in employment situations which pertain specifically to the RAF. The use of the witten word, be it a simple memo through to the reporting of meetings is also studied.. .. .After graduation the pilot will then enter professional training; this can last up to 3 years. During this time he / she will undergo further training in the study of and application of leadership techniques, both in the field ( literally) and also in a less physically demanding environment. There are opportunities to examine and study the efficacy of a variety of well known historical figures leadership ( management) techniques and of course many opportunities to experience at first hand the way other NATO Air Forces work.. .. .During this phase of their education, the exposure to management responsibility may be limited to the control of a small budget.. .. .As a first tourist, the pilot would normally be left unecumbered by secondary duties until they had become combat ready and had consolidated their place on a Squadron. Again, a limited budgetary responsibility may be the first secondary duty the new pilot would pick up. Thias could range from running the Squadron fund to having to control the allowances for a detachment; the Squadron fund, bear in mind, involves accounting for your colleagues contributions, amongst other things, and requires absolute integrity. The first detachment I was involved in was for 3 months and we took 30% of the Sqn personnel; the amount of money we had to deal with ran in to 6 figures each week ! I also had responsibility thrust upon me as Entertainments Officer; pretty tricky when you are 1200 miles from nowhere and over 100 personnel are relying on you. It does encourage planning and the ability to think on your feet and be flexible !. .. .The key to this is not the task you are " lumbered" with but the processes you have to undergo to achieve success. Note that I mention an ability to plan and also to think on ones feet and be adaptable. You could add to this of course the need to take account of inividual opinion and to balance all of this within a budget. Additionally, undertaking such seemingly trivial tasks as being responsible for the entertainments programme encourages you to listen to the views and opinions expressed by others and take, where necessary, a route which satisfies as many individual needs as possible. It also facilitates good communication skills as you have to explain your decision, and often why you have not actioned someone's particular request, with clarity and impartiality.. .. .At the end of the first tour of duty, a tour is typically 2.5 to 3 years, the pilot may now be responsible for a junior ranks accomodation facility. This would introduce the officer, amongst other things, to dealing with civilian contractors and the civil servants who form the " Works and Bricks" dept. You should note that throughout the first tour the junior pilot will have a ready source of advice and assistance from his colleagues and superiors. When given a more onerous secondary duty it will as a deputy which brings in the "mentoring" side of things. The majority of these jobs, though, are secondary ( hence secondary duties) to the primary task of being a pilot. . .. .On the admin side our plucky hero may find himself undertaking security courses and becoming the Sqn Security officer or the Adjutant (responsible for assisting the Boss and Flt Cdr's with the admin). He or she may pick up a job on the PR side of things espe if the Sqn is high profile (617 always seem to hosting visits from all walks of life for example).. .. .As a second tourist the pilot will be working up to leading larger formations(FJ) or doing a post grad QWI course and aiming for Deputy Flt Cdr slot. In the ME world our hero will starting down the road of his/ her first command and working towards becoming Pilot leader. The secondary duties would become slightly more onerous and may involve mentoring a more junior officer. Command training would continue with staff courses involving even more joined up writing practice and further study of leadership. Skills in presentation, public speaking and analysis ( sorting the wheat from the chaff) are honed by in depth Defence Studies. The officer will also qualify through a series of training courses to sit as a member of a court martial.. .. .The staff courses will continue with Flying Supervisor's then Flying Authoriser's course and a thrid tour may involve the CFS course and a spell as an instructor with responsibility for the welfare and development of the student pilots. . .. .Without harping on at too great a length it is, in short, a structured developemnt of management skills using the building block approach with continual mentoring and advice available. Aditionally, this is reinforced by a programme of development training both theoretical and practical.. .. .Finally, bear in mind that wherever possible the Services will resolve a dispute or problem at the lowest possible level as it is quicker, cheaper and far more effective in kiling any bad feeling or discontent.. .. .A brief addition in response to gengis remark. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I know this doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but how about nobody giving any flying to this lady? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I recall flying with the lady when she was a new F/O; having done the pre flight paperwork and checked the Wx and notams etc she turned to me and asked " Which sectors do you want to fly then?". .. .Perhaps the rsponse should have been " Why thank you, I'll do all of them" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:11: Message edited by: PaulDeGearup ]</small>
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One of the issues that hasn't been looked at so far on this thread is that men (including those who run airlines) are often frightened of women and the power they have if they choose to use the sexual harassment/ sexual discrimination avenues. . .. .MP was very obviously frightened of this power(as I would have been). Maybe the creeps that run his airline were too. (Will someone please mention which one it is so I can avoid ever flying for it: there is no requirement for anonymity here. Equally will someone please give at least the woman's initials (she doesn't merit any anonymity at all). .. .(and will everyone please stop referring to her as a lady). . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:16: Message edited by: Muchheavierthanair ]</small>
*just put her my way for an LPC...... *. .. .If you use the SIM to chop pilots for political reasons you completely de-value it as a training tool.. .. .*If, following an accident, it were subsequently proved that pilots between whom a serious difficulty existed, were forced to work with each other against their better judgement, the Company could be held negligible in law.*. .. .Corporate liability could then be placed fair and square on the Fleet Manager who got them to fly together.. .. .*If they allow people with serious issues not to fly together, then they fear it will quickly degenerate into everyone just avoiding those with whom they are not 'best buddies'. Another expmple of management not affording us the professional respect that most of us deserve. Anyway, they perceive the risk of a CRM related 'incident' as less damaging than the risk of their rostering system descending into chaos!*. .. .V.O.L. (value of life) is the most cynical of bad working practice. I did read on PPRUNE that an American company has a bidline system where the Captains roster gets published first allowing the FO's to avoid certain Captains. That one doesn't cost anything.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:19: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]</small>
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Not sure if ‘naming and shaming’ is the way to go – at least not on this forum (if only for Danny’s sake). . .. .However, it would seem that many of the respondents here do know the lady (sic) in question… . .. .That being the case, could I suggest that each and every one of you pass a copy of this thread on to her to ensure she is left in no doubt of the level of esteem in which she is held by her peers? Snail mail or a hard copy in her… pigeon hole (I nearly said the wrong thing there) at work would protect those who don’t want to face the risk of litigation from the ‘lady’. . .. .Oh, and keep her updated as the thread continues to grow.
MaximumPete - What a sorry saga, not only for you and Mrs MP who have clearly suffered dreadfully, but also for the many excellent Lady pilots out there today who view unpleasant women, such as the one you cite, with utter contempt. Those wise and able Ladies realise that the likes of this particular female serves to give them all a bad name - though I am sure all my male colleagues actually see this particular woman for what she is; utter pond life (and my apologies to Kermit 180 as I have already upset him before by using a similar analogy in the past!). Pity Management seemed to lack the IQ to work her out and/or the Management skills to sort the issue out. I thought that is what they were paid to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Looking at the wider case, I believe that “Positive Discrimination” at an early stage of training pushes through some unsuitable Pilots, both male and female. All the big Basic Training providers are to blame in not looking very critically at the wider, Human Factors, aspects of Pilots in the early stages of Training. Such “problem people” should be weeded out long before the IR. The Military are probably better at this as, what they train, they know they will probably fly with - if not in the same cockpit, possibly in very close formation on a dark and stormy night!!!!!! I wonder where this female did her basic training and what the honest views of her Instructors were? I would put money on the fact that she caused a few people to question her suitability to become a good, all-round, Aviator at the time. I wonder what, if any, steps were taken at that stage? Could the Airline sue the Training provider for not taking action then? Now, that would shake things up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Generic cases of this in the Training world? Often male discrimination surrounds the seeming inability of many senior staff to see through the veneer of bulls**t that those without much natural ability tend to cover themselves with or, if the staff do, they avoid taking action which will lose the School money. The Student may pass the IR but so much about flying is mental ATTITUDE. Still, the Schools’ attitude is that the “problem” will soon be someone else’s and this prevents the appropriate steps being taken at that stage. The later a problem is left, the harder it is to sort it out – hardly HR Rocket Science. I am quite sure the fact that “money talks” has seen some dubious characters move into the Cockpit. However, the case here is a clear demonstration of the catty level a few women will sink to in order to cover their professional inadequacies. In some cases, those who hide behind the shield of “Sexual Harassment”, even when such harassment clearly does not exist, are quite happy to use sex to climb the airstairs into the Cockpit. Mmmm, I wonder…….! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Surely not! But I have seen it in the past so please don't shoot poor H 'n' H for talking out of turn.. .. .I think that the “PC Brigade” have actually dragged the recognition of women to where it should be; based on ability. Unfortunately, having arrived at the centre of the arena some decade ago, they forgot to stop running. In doing so they are now alienating their own kind! I recall seeing one Lady being subjected to “Positive Discrimination” and she was furious as she was paraded in front of the Press. She was actually highly professional – but her equally-able male counterparts were not put on show – and were they glad. So the “PC Brigade” have scored a lovely “own goal” if you ask me! Alas, too late in this case. Wasn’t it “The Two Ronnies” who did a sketch entitled “The Worm Has Turned”? Maybe we should dust that one down. Or maybe the Industry/CAA should take a more detailed look at training requirements.. .. .MP, whatever happens, you and Mrs MP have a wonderful “retirement” and put this woman behind you. Unfortunately, the female in question is our problem now. Thought you’d smile when you realised that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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MP.. .. .Your story is tragic but certainly not unique in a world where "feminism" has run amuck. Though 99% of female pilots are highly competent there are the token few who are incopetent and eat up an enormous amount of training time and patience. Because of the lawyer commanded society we live in they are next to impossible to get rid of due of the inevitable discrimination lawsuit that follows. We all know the stories. I know dozens of them. The one that emediately comes to mind happened during initial training. A fellow in my class needed a few extra sim. sessions in order to be signed off for his FE checkride. He had failed his oral and was already nervous when he was paraded up to the chief pilot where, according to him, he was told in no uncertain terms that if he didn't get his ***t together he would be ou of there. Meanwhile a woman in the class just ahead of us was working on her 7th. extra sim. with no such threat. Had this happened to anyone else they would have been let go.. .Sexual harrasment has no business in any field, least of all aviation, but when management becomes more afraid of lawyers than of having incompetent pilots in their cockpits something is very wrong.. .The issues involved are compicated and not easily solved but the current system of affirmative action is flawed and needs to be abolished.
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MP. .. .I assume you signed a “Compromise Agreement” when you left our friends in the East Midlands that prevents you from taking legal action against them unless you pay back the settlement. However, that should not preclude you from taking legal action for defamation against the accuser and the other person who wrote to the Magistrates Court. . .. .Have you considered this or spoken to a lawyer?
Uncle Pete
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All I want is stop this happening to some other poor soul. Next time there could be family with children affected. It was bad enough for my parents and partner!. .. .As to my "friend" writing to the Court, their rules prevent me from naming and shaming him, but. .WE know who you are!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">All I want is stop this happening to some other poor soul. Next time there could be family with children affected. It was bad enough for my parents and partner!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">If she has to pay substantial damages and legal costs I think should would think twice before opening her gob again!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />
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MP, all the best and I wish you to enjoy the retirement. If I were you the things would have been handled a little bit different. I would have gone all the way necessary in order to facilitate the sacking of your former F/O. The simple solution was to spend a thousand or so dollars and wire tape yourself with a good recording device including a miniature set of digital cameras installed in the frame of your glasses or any other suitable spot. All the meetings you attended could have been recorded and the developments in cockpit as well (not using the belt, overspeeding, clipboard, refusing to comply with the instructions of a senior pilot). Instead of drifting into depression you could have played the cat and mouse game as long as you wanted, finally confronting the management and threatening the legal action. That person would have been out and you would have had a peaceful career. The person in question can go on and do the same to others, so I hope that people working for your former company could learn from this.
Uncle Pete
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Gaza,. .. .A nice thought but unfortunately the Law assunes that employers are responsible people and therefore it is the employers who have jurisdiction and are effectively judge and jury in a case like this of one person's grievance against another.. .. .I've not signed a "Compromise Agreement" as there was no compromise, no agreement and no compensation, apart from losing my licence for ten months! . .. .In my ex-employer's eyes she is as "pure as the driven snow".. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
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'In my ex-employer's eyes she is as "pure as the driven snow".'. .. .Very droll, very very droll.. .. .Odd how you can be a real sh*t and be flavour of the month.. .. .Depends on personal tastes I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> suppose . . .
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> Depends on personal tastes I suppose . . . . .. .Or should that be Personnel Tastes?. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Best of Luck in the retirement MP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
The more I read of this - the more I wonder what the so-called 'lady' is doing "behind the scenes"! I've seen it happen before so nothing would surprise H 'n' H, cynical b*****d that I am! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. ."What goes around, comes around". Of that I am sure - though how many other victims there will be before that event is anyones guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
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I would like to add my support for MP and make the following points:. .a)all airline management(particularly British) suffers from this "old boy" network crap.I have worked for the airline in question(I resigned along with countless others)and they are a perfect example.I have noticed with sadness how all the "wrong" people grease their way into the office and work their way up to positions of power,so that they can make others(esp those who dont have the correct handshake)lives hell.Unfortunately,all the good guys(and gals) who should be running things,seem to lack that ingredient that is required..namely ambition.They´re happy line flying and so get side-lined.Its the same the world over.Of course there are individual exceptions and there are airlines that are a real pleasure to fly for(Southwest Airlines...Dan Air by all accounts).. .ii)My own experience with female pilots has always been good,so this is certainly not the norm.. .iii)There is a sort of inverse prejudice in the modern world.Minorities and those perecived as down-trodden are now over protected and promoted.Nobody wants to fire a minority..we promote them to show how liberal we all are.Doesnt matter if they´re no good at the job they do.. .iv)Sexual harassment is so potentially explosive,it demands very delicate handling.I see fathers today afraid of how they hold their two year old daughter in case some social services blip gets the wrong idea.The only answer is legal representation very early on,even if there has only been a hint of something untoward.If you try and defend yourself,you´ll only end up sounding guilty.At the meeting where this woman admitted lying,a lawyer should have been present and minutes taken.That way there´s no later confusion.
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Hmmm, from all the posts in favor of MP position, it would appear what’s happened to MP is not ethically or morally right.. .. .Because of the legal consequences it may not be wise to post the offending pilot (?) and the name of the company she works for on this forum. But that shouldn’t stop that type of information from appearing on another forum with a link to this thread.. .. .I would have thought that the heat that this thread is generating would have created some sort of response from either of the two guilty parties. Perhaps if the thread was forwarded to the Board of Directors of the airline in question or the shareholders, that would produce justice for all.. .. .Something should be done…