Eighteen Months of Hell!!!
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Polar S - if you check the posts you may get some clues:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">To keep the heat of the other two lady pilots,who are good friends of ours, the Lady is no longer based in the Midlands </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">and Hoskins says. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> She will chop the power at 50' at vma+5kts on the F100 and THUMP it in. Say anything at choxs on and the waterworks flow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Any offers?
Life's too short for ironing
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GlamGran, and MP too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .This whole thing must have been hellish for both of you. I am very sorry that anyone should be put thru' such a nasty situation.. .. .I love your profile - flying, drinking and shopping - what more could a body ask for? Sounds like my idea of heaven!
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PG ; There are two (at least that I know of) companies that flies the F100 in UK...both of them have blue as their main colorscheme (until recently that is..).. .. .MP - You know what makes me think about your tale? Today it was you. Who will it be tomorrow and will this ever become a trend or will it be an exception? I know that it is simply a fact of life (and human nature) that there will be always that "pain in the @*s" everywhere at any given time...99% are good people, 1% bad..but that 1% seems always more present and in your case was the ultimate "problem".. .. .Don't bother anymore..turn the page (easy for me to say you may think - but...). Is no good to keep revolving that sentiment, you will be the only one affected. Life is short and so enjoy it every moment - specially now that you have, even if unwanted, more time to you and your family. . .. .Sincerely. .. .AB. .. .PS ; "What goes around , comes around"
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Maybe if more occurrences like this were made public, then something could be done about them...too public?...don't think so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
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Just to put my two pennorth in.. .. .I've flown wwith Pete on the line several times and always learned something. the only time I've been in the sim was just after my command course and was required to stoke for an FO who had been off sick for six months and need refresher training plus LPC/OPC etc. Although I was not under test, the FO had obviously done a lot of reading before hand and everything went really well apart from one excercise. As soon as it was obviously going pear shaped, off came the motion and we stopped for a think, and then had another go. Everything I saw during those two days was geared towards the requirements of the student and was tailored to him as an individual rather than an exercise in ticking boxes. The whole affair was very professional and extrememly good fun as well. Again I learnt a lot.. .MP has a wealth of experience to pass on and a good manner in which to do it. However if you have failed failed to prepare adequately then (in the sim) he will let you continue until your shortcomings are obvious even to yourself. It then depends if you have the strength of character to learn from his guidance, or do you blame everyone else? Although I have never flown with the lady in question, words to the wise abound in the crewroom for when you do.. .Pete will be sorely missed, enjoy your new career.
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At my airline we have a union and we also have a professional standards committee to check and to contain this sort of "runaway train" scenario.. .. .Before company management gets involved, our Professional Standards Committee, made up of rank and file elected crewmembers, gets first crack at resolving personality and flight standards issues.. .. .In this business there are no desperate situations, only desperate people.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Nubboy my sentiments exactly, I have flown and been trained by MP a number of times and always found him to be very fair, with a wealth of knowledge, who's whole approach was to make you a safer and better operator. I find it amazing that one persons extremely stupid and juvenile comments, aimed purely at getting her own back because of her own below standard performances can have had the effect which they did. Management should've been down on her like a ton bricks, but however let situation get so far out of hand it ruined a good man's(30+ yrs of service) working life. . .Stupid comments like the ones she made could so easily wreck not just a persons career but also thier marriage/relationship.. .. .All the best Pete enjoy retirement, you will be sorely missed!!!
Uncle Pete
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Nubboy and Budvar,. .. .Many thanks for your kind comments. I miss the simulator training and the sessions in the bar afterwards.. .. .Keep in touch . .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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Maximum Pete,. .. .I have no idea who you are, (though a shrewd idea as to which airline and where), but having read the thread, would like to add my thoughts...... .. .I am a professional pilot much as you are (or were). Your story (and I don't doubt it for a moment - it pales into insignificance compared with others I have heard) leaves me cold.. .. .My concern is with the state of our profession.. .. .Managers and regulators alike are responsible for driving our standards down, whether they are standards of qualification, training, technical knowledge, or conduct. It sounds as though your nemesis has lower standards than you, in many if not all of these respects.. .. .Might I take this opportunity to say, to fellow professionals who read this forum, that it is not too late to 'stop the rot' - yet. We must stand firm for what we believe in. Do you, Pete, imagine that your story could have unfolded in BA in the 60s? No, of course not. The 'lady' concerned would have been thrown out on her backside for having the temerity to accuse. I do not suggest that this would have been right either - the acceptable path lies between this and that which you have been forced to tread.. .. .We must, if we believe that we are professionals, stop putting up with this type of rubbish from our 'managers'. I cannot stress the point strongly enough.. .. .If we do not do this, we can expect the present changes to our lives - more work, less pay, fewer and lower standards, more interference, and a down-skilling of our profession - to continue.. .. .I am lucky enough to be an able communicator, and take the opportunity to communicate in all sorts of forums, as and when I can. I often find this difficult, as it can grind against the 'corporate philosophy' which my position dictates I must support. I have met with some success of late. However, I often feel mine is a lone voice.. .. .You fell on your sword, Pete, and I hope you don't let this episode cloud your reminiscences. Enjoy your retirement. You have earned it.. .. .Colleagues, stand with me.. .. .Stop the rot.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 09:06: Message edited by: NorthernSky ]</small>
Uncle Pete
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NorthernSky,. .. .I think you hit the nail on the head!. .. .There is a saying which I think is relevant in and out of aviation:. .. ."A good manager anticipates". .. .Not much else I can say really. .. .VERY Happily Retired MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Maximum Pete's moral courage in posting his experience on PPRUNE is commendable. I thoroughly agree with Northern Sky; the management rot has got to stop.. .. .In my time in the industry I worked for several airlines and ended up with a very jaundiced view of pilot management. A rare few (the really really bright ones) were outstanding and bless their souls. The majority were just protecting their own positions and you had to wonder how they came by the post. It seemed to me that they invariably came up via the training route having rubbed shoulders with other managers. Now, pilots are managers in their own right BUT line management is an altogether different role and you will suceed if you are naturally talanted OR properly trained.. .. .I had some thoroughly unpleasant (although seemingly diplomatic) encounters with Fleet Pilots. They wanted punctuality and I wanted defects rectified before take off. I recall asking for clarification in writing in one case (BALPA screened the letter first) and that got them off my back, However, a few months later I had a really odd SIM Check (which I passed) and it was clear to me that they were not going to let matters pass. I left on my own terms for pastures new and never looked back.. .. .How do we raise the standard of pilot management?. .The only way forward that I can see is proper training for the job which, as yet does not exist.. .. .I wonder if Cranfield could be persuaded to run short courses for pilot managers. say two months covering the basic stuff like employment law, safety, aviation medicine and some finance.. .. .What are your thoughts gentleman?
Uncle Pete
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Wig Wag.. .. .There are some excellent courses in and outside the aviation industry. . .. .Unfortunately there is always one stumbling block: MONEY. .. .In the ideal world all pilots would attend a full-blown management course as part of their induction training when they join an airline. Perhaps someone with a service background can confirm that officers/pilots are trained in management skills very early on in their careers? This does not appear, at least from my own personal experiences, to happen in the civilian aviation world.. .. .I think we are getting there at the Grass-Root level with the CRM training at the initial training stage when joining the airline and more importantly during recuurrency training when we are getting a "feel" for the job. However very little appears to be done to have a formal selection procedure for managers. Maybe a weekend of Chay Blythe or something similar could be on the cards. Walking on red hot coals could be made part of the curriculum, only joking!. .. .All the best everyone. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
>>there is always one stumbling block: MONEY<<. .. .I know!. .. .Pilots would like their management to facilitate them in operational matters and careers and the airlines want managers to control cost. Hence 'soft' middle management who invariably handle staff badly. This only becomes a cost issue when there is an appreciable pilot turnover.. .Managers get replaced by more of the same. There are always more gullible types waiting in the wings!. .. .Its a real headache for line pilots. I don't know what to suggest further.
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In most areas, there are minimum standards of training laid down by the regulator, this is certainly true for pilots, trainers, examiners, etc, who all have a part to play in the day-to-day operation of the aircraft.. .. .Those with strategic responsibilty for the airline's operations and standards are not required to undergo any formal training or checking, and need no particular qualifications.. .. .Some airlines do devote time and money to trainig their management. This may do little more than to put them at a commercial disadvantage.. .. .I would propose a requirement for the licensing of airline management staff, with post-holders required to have passed an approved course in airline management, the syllabus to include the regulatory requirement, a seemless knowledge of JAR, state-specific matters such as FTLs, and so on, plus a course of study of hu8man factors issues such as dealing with disciplinary and grievance procedures.. .. .There would need to be a 'buddy' system of career development, with a possible candidate shadowing a qualified post-holder during their study and qualification, the process being overseen by 'Airline Management Inspectors' - similar to FOIs, and with a responsibilty for seeing that the training was undertaken properly and the candidate's progress was satisfactory.. .. .The final step, before a candidate was allowed to hold a post, would be a board interview with similar aims to the 'witnessing' requirement in training.. .. .This, of course, is rather more 'blue sky' than NorthernSky'. Anyone agree with it, or have better or other ideas? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
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With reference to the pilot with the scantily clad men on her clipboard and the circuit breakers too sensitive to wear a shoulder harness -- she certainly isn't a 'lady' pilot.. .. .I'm so sorry you went through this experience. I have been flying now for 18 years, more on than off, and started at a time when there were hardly any lady pilots;I have the honour to have been the first one in the U.A.E.,for instance. Now I'm in Botswana, due to move to contract work soon.. .. .Honestly and truly, in ALL that time, I have not had one experience where I have felt prejudiced against or harrased in any way -- quite the contrary, and the feeling of camaraderie is the most precious part of my career. All this is a bit soppy I suppose but I want you to know that people like me are grateful to alot of 'old school' guys who let us in with a smile.. .. .What did they used to call it before it was the 'box office' ? !
Uncle Pete
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NorthernSky,. .. .I entirely agree with your suggestions. . .. .If there had been a manager in place who could actually manage this sorry state affairs could have been sorted out in about an hour, if that.. .. .Unfortunately the "luddite" mentality persists in certain quarters and this could happen again within my ex-airline.. .. .I'm not knocking managers. There is one very able competent pilot manager, whose name I cannot mention, but he is denied the time and the tools to carry out the job to his satisfaction.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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Budvar asked why management allowed this to develop. A cynical answer would be cost. If the female pilot is anything like the description then she would be hitting them with a sex discrimination writ if they had the balls to stand up to her. This of course could lead to unlimited damages.. .. .Add this to the pathetic standard of people management in all areas of industry and you can begin to see why a good guy such as MP was an easier target that the female pilot.. .. .The message from this is that whilst most female pilots are perfectly able to work with male colleagues you will always have the one who can suddenly bring you face to face with the scenario faced by MP. It is a doomsday scenario that can happen to any of you, at any time.. .. .MP has shown morale courage to bring this shaby, disgraceful and incompetently handled incident to general attention.