Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
We should all be allowed to work until the day WE decide to do otherwise, provided we are actually medically fit and performing as required.
65? Give me a break. If I haven't retired to do something else a decade before that age, I'm going to authorise my wife to hit me squarely over the head with a cricket bat.
Oh that's right - I will be able to do that, cos she is my first and only wife....
65? Give me a break. If I haven't retired to do something else a decade before that age, I'm going to authorise my wife to hit me squarely over the head with a cricket bat.
Oh that's right - I will be able to do that, cos she is my first and only wife....
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I have flown with a 62 year old f/o on several occasions recently - in my opinion the guy should definitely be back in the left hand seat; he is one of the most pleasant and switched on pilots you could ever hope to fly with. We didn't discuss his reasons for working as a B757 co-pilot but my guess is... "needs must"!
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Originally Posted by ANGELOPINTO
65 YEARS OLD INSTEAD OF 60
Only joking.
Bottums Up
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Skol, would you care to back up your assertions with evidence?
I've been checked by some younger than I, some older. I've checked some older than I and some younger.
I'm not aware of any defference towards me for my age, nor have I given any based on age, young or old. I don't believe that any checkers at my current employer would pass Clarrie "coz he's a good bloke."
Whilst what you assert might happen from time to time, to suggest it's the norm to leave it to the poor young know-it-all F/O line drivers to weed out the oldies, seems to me to be a wild generalisation.
Mind you, I really hope I can reflect on my own perfomance objectively, and know when it's time to hang up my wings.
I've been checked by some younger than I, some older. I've checked some older than I and some younger.
I'm not aware of any defference towards me for my age, nor have I given any based on age, young or old. I don't believe that any checkers at my current employer would pass Clarrie "coz he's a good bloke."
Whilst what you assert might happen from time to time, to suggest it's the norm to leave it to the poor young know-it-all F/O line drivers to weed out the oldies, seems to me to be a wild generalisation.
Mind you, I really hope I can reflect on my own perfomance objectively, and know when it's time to hang up my wings.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
The way that demographics are going, especially in the UK, we must work longer as there are not enough young people to support us when we are in our dotage.
I wouldn't worry about jobs for the wannabes, in the long term, with the predicted growth in air traffic, there will be more than enough jobs around.
Personally I would be devastated if I was forced to retire at 60 and I wanted to go on. Please don't try to take that opportunity away from me.
I wouldn't worry about jobs for the wannabes, in the long term, with the predicted growth in air traffic, there will be more than enough jobs around.
Personally I would be devastated if I was forced to retire at 60 and I wanted to go on. Please don't try to take that opportunity away from me.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Guys/Gals,
I’m just about to start my ATPL training, and am a "young whippersnapper."
Please don’t put us all in the same category as the first poster, I agree with all that has been said buy you guys. Id rather have experienced pilots in work to A, let us gain experience from you and B, because (no offence) I don’t want to be paying for your retirement any more than I have to. Let everyone work till his or her medical has run out.
Please don’t jump on me because I’m not an experienced pilot, but I think that the option should be there to work until whenever you want.
Just my 2pence worth.
I’m just about to start my ATPL training, and am a "young whippersnapper."
Please don’t put us all in the same category as the first poster, I agree with all that has been said buy you guys. Id rather have experienced pilots in work to A, let us gain experience from you and B, because (no offence) I don’t want to be paying for your retirement any more than I have to. Let everyone work till his or her medical has run out.
Please don’t jump on me because I’m not an experienced pilot, but I think that the option should be there to work until whenever you want.
Just my 2pence worth.
Warning Toxic!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Stue- fair point I think. The law is coming, like it or not. I think most people agree for once with the fairness of the law and the fact that people at any particular age now are like previous generations 10 years younger- people are more able these days, and retirement should reflect that. With the coming age crunch where there are not enough youngsters, quite suddenly the (developed) world will move into young worker shortage. There will certainly be jobs for all. Then throw into that pot Avian Flu.............
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I saw this happening some years ago.
We started with Final Salary pensions Schemes at 55
That changed to FSPS's to 60.
Then money purchase pension schemes.
Then no schemes at all.
Finally pay for your own type rating and uniform and "think your self lucky if I allow you to fly".
As someone who was lucky to retire at 55 and have interests outside flying let me advise you all. If you go at 65 you will all be too old to enjoy the fruits of your hard work over the previous 40 years. The grim reaper is behind you and a lot closer at 65 than 60.
Frankly I cannot see what would attract any young person to pay the cost of joining this profession other than the old Ernest Gan reason: Big Watch big wings and a **** to go with it – something most people grow out of by the time they are 30. As someone said many years ago “show me your salary slip; Ill show you your status”. Welcome to the world of a Mug in a cheap suit - Virgin Rail train drivers get better remuneration than half of the contributors on this site.
We started with Final Salary pensions Schemes at 55
That changed to FSPS's to 60.
Then money purchase pension schemes.
Then no schemes at all.
Finally pay for your own type rating and uniform and "think your self lucky if I allow you to fly".
As someone who was lucky to retire at 55 and have interests outside flying let me advise you all. If you go at 65 you will all be too old to enjoy the fruits of your hard work over the previous 40 years. The grim reaper is behind you and a lot closer at 65 than 60.
Frankly I cannot see what would attract any young person to pay the cost of joining this profession other than the old Ernest Gan reason: Big Watch big wings and a **** to go with it – something most people grow out of by the time they are 30. As someone said many years ago “show me your salary slip; Ill show you your status”. Welcome to the world of a Mug in a cheap suit - Virgin Rail train drivers get better remuneration than half of the contributors on this site.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I agree with sky9's facts (but not with his conclusions):
Everyone who took on the profession of pilot knew that it will end with 60 (or even 55). If you haven't have your money piled up until 60, then you did something wrong, spent too much or saved too little. It was part of your "life contract" that you would go to pension. You can't change the rule afterwards.
I'm 40 years old and I am actively planning my financial future. I have to find a way to retire at 60, because there is no other way. You have to base your planning on given facts, you can't hope on future luck.
I agree that a lot of guys stay in good health with 60, but I know at least as much pilots who really are burnt out, not at their top anymore. Flight deck technology change also contributes to the attrition rate.
Dani
Everyone who took on the profession of pilot knew that it will end with 60 (or even 55). If you haven't have your money piled up until 60, then you did something wrong, spent too much or saved too little. It was part of your "life contract" that you would go to pension. You can't change the rule afterwards.
I'm 40 years old and I am actively planning my financial future. I have to find a way to retire at 60, because there is no other way. You have to base your planning on given facts, you can't hope on future luck.
I agree that a lot of guys stay in good health with 60, but I know at least as much pilots who really are burnt out, not at their top anymore. Flight deck technology change also contributes to the attrition rate.
Dani
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Its the individual choice to work or not that matters.. not the actual age.
The control limits are one's own medical and financial circumstance.
I refuse to give 'date of birth' these days. I'm 'over 21'.
The control limits are one's own medical and financial circumstance.
I refuse to give 'date of birth' these days. I'm 'over 21'.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
At 29, I may be considered a young whipper-snapper by some of the experienced pilots on this forum. I'd be happy to see the retirement age of pilots extended as far as as is safely possible, if only because by the time I eventually "self improve" my way into a paying right hand seat, I may not have many years of paid employment ahead of me 
Also, by the time I reach 55 I'd hate to lose the job I had worked so hard for if I was still fit to do it. I don't think that is a fair situation for anyone to find themselves in.
Then again, if life was fair, daddy would be paying for my fATPL.
Also, by the time I reach 55 I'd hate to lose the job I had worked so hard for if I was still fit to do it. I don't think that is a fair situation for anyone to find themselves in.
Then again, if life was fair, daddy would be paying for my fATPL.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
It's really quite simple, you can keep working until the increased retirement age of 65 or if you can afford to do so retire earlier. As pilots we seem to be fixated on regulations and have a mentality of being lead by rules and regs, think for yourself. If there's anything you don't like then don't do it, all this does is allow those who want to continue working later to do so. In fact it may help some mid life pilots starting out to gain a better chance of getting into the industry because they'll have potentially more mileage until retirement.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I have recently been told by an old freind who has just retired that there is a critical lack of experienced captains in the airlines.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Last year I had 3 fellow cpt's dying at less than 55 yrs,while enjoying a class 1 medical,with no health problem whatsoever. Fortunately ,all of them were not at the job when that happened.
I also know one that fainted with no reason found for that even after months of med exam.
This job of ours has a lot of felt or unfelt stress.
Also,I guess most of us want to enjoy our retirement.I don't want to retire at 60 or 65 ,and to live only 1 or 2 yrs after that. There are many things I'd like to do then.Grandchildrens,trips,work in my garage,do some joy flights now and then,.... I have almost no time for this things now.
How I see it: no matter what the retirement age is.It can well be 65 ,or even 70 .(you can fly a Bus at 70,no problem). Let everyone decide when to retire (of course with some serious med exams after .X.age.I guess there will be few pilots in perfect health after 55 yrs.).
My plans are to retire,if posible,at less than 60 yrs old.And,somehow ,I feel sorry for the ones that want to fly untill they die,like they have nothing else to do at home.Or maybe they haven't.
And for the young ones....don't worry,the olders are not keeping your seats taken.You are simply not in the same class.I thought the same for my instructors,while I was a junior FO,or now as a cpt.I'm still not in the same class with some of them,and they are not holding my seat,even now.
I want to be like some of them,but when I'll finally reach their level,they'll probably be someplace else..A nicer one,I hope.
Brgds... And a long,happy retirement for those that've reached it.
Alex
I also know one that fainted with no reason found for that even after months of med exam.
This job of ours has a lot of felt or unfelt stress.
Also,I guess most of us want to enjoy our retirement.I don't want to retire at 60 or 65 ,and to live only 1 or 2 yrs after that. There are many things I'd like to do then.Grandchildrens,trips,work in my garage,do some joy flights now and then,.... I have almost no time for this things now.
How I see it: no matter what the retirement age is.It can well be 65 ,or even 70 .(you can fly a Bus at 70,no problem). Let everyone decide when to retire (of course with some serious med exams after .X.age.I guess there will be few pilots in perfect health after 55 yrs.).
My plans are to retire,if posible,at less than 60 yrs old.And,somehow ,I feel sorry for the ones that want to fly untill they die,like they have nothing else to do at home.Or maybe they haven't.
And for the young ones....don't worry,the olders are not keeping your seats taken.You are simply not in the same class.I thought the same for my instructors,while I was a junior FO,or now as a cpt.I'm still not in the same class with some of them,and they are not holding my seat,even now.
I want to be like some of them,but when I'll finally reach their level,they'll probably be someplace else..A nicer one,I hope.
Brgds... And a long,happy retirement for those that've reached it.
Alex
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Originally Posted by sapco2
I have flown with a 62 year old f/o on several occasions recently - in my opinion the guy should definitely be back in the left hand seat; he is one of the most pleasant and switched on pilots you could ever hope to fly with. We didn't discuss his reasons for working as a B757 co-pilot but my guess is... "needs must"!
Also, older pilots try to think a bit about the consequences this would bear: e.g. talk about this thread to the senior F/O's from thomas cook that have been loyal to the company and waiting for a command for several years (for an opportunity to be given to them-not even talking about the ones having been considered "unsuitable" for a LH seat).
If the decision is suddenly to postpone it for 5 years it means other F/O's might wait another 5 years to be given opportunity for command, and thus for the 200 hr pilot for getting an opprtunity to become F/O on a turbojet/prop. It is the whole chain that is going to become longer. I don' think it is good, definitely not moving it immediately for 5 years! Maybe 1 or 2 yes, no more.
Let's have some reaons coming up in this thread, not sentiments about how getting along with a "young " or "old" fellow or how pleasant (s)he is!!
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
handflying,
No-one owes you or anyone either a job or a promotion. If someone is qualified and capable, it is entirely up to them when they retire. If you are currently filling either seat of an airliner, leaving would open up an opertunity for an up-and-comer. Going soon?
This is a professtion, not a charitable act. We do our jobs to earn a living and it is up to each of us to assess our own circumstances and decide when we want to hang it up. I sincerely hope to be in a position to quit when I'm 60, but that will have more to do with the world economy than with me.If I make the decision to work on, that is MY right, and I would ask you to butt out!
No-one owes you or anyone either a job or a promotion. If someone is qualified and capable, it is entirely up to them when they retire. If you are currently filling either seat of an airliner, leaving would open up an opertunity for an up-and-comer. Going soon?
This is a professtion, not a charitable act. We do our jobs to earn a living and it is up to each of us to assess our own circumstances and decide when we want to hang it up. I sincerely hope to be in a position to quit when I'm 60, but that will have more to do with the world economy than with me.If I make the decision to work on, that is MY right, and I would ask you to butt out!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Bollox to the age descriminators, tree huggers etc... If you are fit to fly....then you are fit to fly!!!If you want to retire or change jobs...off ya go!
If you want to continue flying......up you go! Reasons are varied and far apart. One thing is clear, since they came out with the 60 year rule...in all that time they have never come out with the actual considered rational and convention for such a rule other than some hyped mumbo jumbo with medical conatations attached. BOLLIX!!
If you want to continue flying......up you go! Reasons are varied and far apart. One thing is clear, since they came out with the 60 year rule...in all that time they have never come out with the actual considered rational and convention for such a rule other than some hyped mumbo jumbo with medical conatations attached. BOLLIX!!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Wizofoz,
As far as I know nobody started as a Cpt in aviation; when upgrades are done there must be places available. When an F/O moves it is only to the LH seat (not in the jumpseat) and his place as f/o becomes free: that's the chain!! And the chain depends on world economy AND these kind of decisions, changes in rules being made (Agree totally with "lifecontract" of Dani and sky9: 60 years almost since beginning of aviation).
It is just unfair for the younger ones: world economy has allways been good untill about 5 years ago (type-ratings were almost allways paid for; few people were having to work abroad; upgrades were done within a reasonable amount of time). Younger guys have had a tough time last 5 years: 9/11, majors collapse, paycuts, bonds, upgrades now all at the sudden postponed maybe by another 5 years?
For myself Wizofoz I am trying to prepare retirement asap (hopefully well before 60!) because the generation after me is even far worse off then me and that for the benefit of the job in it as a whole worries me.
Just thinking about those to come more then myself. (how many people with an ATPL licence obtained in the last 5 years have never gotten a job in aviation? I know lots of them, and they would still join if they could...maintain their licence...do I have to give up my post for them? Don't think so, especially when I am sitting next to someone who has allways believed 60 was going to be the limit). Even being a good guy I grant another year or two, but not 5! Very sorry.
For better times...
As far as I know nobody started as a Cpt in aviation; when upgrades are done there must be places available. When an F/O moves it is only to the LH seat (not in the jumpseat) and his place as f/o becomes free: that's the chain!! And the chain depends on world economy AND these kind of decisions, changes in rules being made (Agree totally with "lifecontract" of Dani and sky9: 60 years almost since beginning of aviation).
It is just unfair for the younger ones: world economy has allways been good untill about 5 years ago (type-ratings were almost allways paid for; few people were having to work abroad; upgrades were done within a reasonable amount of time). Younger guys have had a tough time last 5 years: 9/11, majors collapse, paycuts, bonds, upgrades now all at the sudden postponed maybe by another 5 years?
For myself Wizofoz I am trying to prepare retirement asap (hopefully well before 60!) because the generation after me is even far worse off then me and that for the benefit of the job in it as a whole worries me.
Just thinking about those to come more then myself. (how many people with an ATPL licence obtained in the last 5 years have never gotten a job in aviation? I know lots of them, and they would still join if they could...maintain their licence...do I have to give up my post for them? Don't think so, especially when I am sitting next to someone who has allways believed 60 was going to be the limit). Even being a good guy I grant another year or two, but not 5! Very sorry.
For better times...