Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

[Dani]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Very well said, funfly, it's about ability... - and about risk assessment! Imagine a curve, the incident rate per 1000 flight hours caused by pilot incapacitation. I rely on the thesis that this curve is inclining by age. Maybe there are some physicians here who can proof or decline this theory. At a certain point, the national air authorities had to draw the line, when it becomes unwise to let them fly, because you put life at risk. It became standard that this line was 60, some airline even had it on 55. So now it should be 65, ok, the physicians have to know that. It might be possible that this curve is less inclined lately because people live longer and more healthy. But there is certainly a line, and you can wail and whine as long as you want: It's not you who decides. Period.

[Gunship]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Age discrimination is one thing but how can a company decrease the ex-Captain's salary when he unwilfully warms the right seat just because France has a problem with them golden oldies flies over their occupied territory

[I-FORD]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Quite frankly I'm fed up of providing links to the numerous studies (ICAO, FAA, CAMI) that show no relation between age and accidents in aviation.
I think that all the supporters of the opposite can do their homework and perform their own researches before posting unsupported theories.
They could start here: http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/m...ia/age60_1.pdf
and here: http://www.icao.int/ICDB/HTML/Englis...82.APPC.EN.HTM
Age limits have nothing to do with safety, everything with social and financial issues.
I (being financially able and not greedy) am in the position of being able to stop working tomorrow (I'm 46).
Nevertheless I love flying big planes and would like to continue doing it until able to pass medicals and proficency checks.
I don't like anybody telling me I have to stop doing what I like just because somebodyelse wants to take my position.
Please go and find your own place without trying to steal mine.

[handflying]

Re: Who promised you a left seat anyway?

[QUOTE=Flying Guy]It is interesting that many young stallions on this thread seem to feel they deserve command simply because they have chosen flying as a profession. They are the ones who want the more experienced guys to be dismissed so they can advance to the left seat. They feel they "deserve" it.

We started this profession to be a PILOT. If you are a pilot, congratulations. If you work hard, pay attention, show wisdom and maturity, then you might have an opportunity to fly in the left seat - not because someone more qualified and experienced than you has been forced to retire by an age limit.

By the way, I am 62 and flying left seat on a Jumbo. I am at top of my game in the airplane. I am having a blast, love doing it, and by God I earned it after more than 40 years of study, passing checks, and staying fit. You want me to retire after all that time and effort because you "deserve" to have my job? How long have YOU been paying your dues? Five or ten years?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Response:
Bunch of old hypocrits:how many hours did you have when you were proposed a LH seat? You know that since 9/11 there are a lot of f/o that have more then 10000 hrs and never have been given an opportunity for command and why???Not because they are not good, but because their company just got bankrupt when they were doing the upgrade course!!Bunch of selfish old idiots!!Ever paid for a type-rating?? No it didn't exist 20 years ago!! Yes there are jobs around...where:emirates, etihad, singapour, what if I don't wanna go there because I have a life, family, friends where I work and my actual company isn't going to go bankrupt very soon now.

So who has paid their dues??? The old guys have had the good times all their life and now they want even more...NO way 65!

That is for the upgrade subject, now I allready talked about the 200 hr pilot that couldn't get a job...bad choice of career according to H.Finn...not true because he can still manage maybe to hold his licence for another year financially wise...unless the rules change like this one moving from 60 to 65...and that wasn't neither in his hands when he started!! So if you move you give everybody the same chances you've had guys!! Divorces allready existed 20 years ago!! No mercy...it is life...not charity like you guys can say so well!!

Passed times were better in aviation then they were now H.Finn. You seem to have been working in only 1 major company all your life (good for you!!) but don' tell me you need the money. Because it is MORE luxury you need and we (younger guys)'d like thinking going back to good old times of aviation: it is no more type-ratings to be paid by yourself, no more having to expatriate yourself all your life to find a job, etc...

All this is possible...if you guys give in!

[Captain Airclues]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Could somebody please explain exactly which law is being changed. The JAA rules already allow pilots to fly in either seat until they are 65. Pilots in the UK are forced to change seats because they generally have to fly over countries like France, which do not follow the JAA rules. So what is the rule change that is being refered to?

BTW, after reading handflyings post, is anyone else beginning to regret all the time and effort spent helping the many wannabes to get their first foot on the ladder?

Airclues

[H.Finn]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Handflying, you're being pathetic. That's all I can say. How do you know I've only held one job in one major company for all my life? That's not true.
Now that the rules have relaxed, you'll also have a chance to work longer. Keep yourself in good shape and enjoy it. That is what I intend to do.

P.S. Etihad did not exist 20 years ago. And I would have liked to go to Singapore at one stage of my life, but it just didn't work out, OK? That's life.

[Baron rouge]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Captain airclues, the rules beeing changed are in fact ICAO rules : from september 2006 if the ICAO concil accept and vote it the new rule will be:

1 crew member over 60 and less than 65 to the condition that the other crew member is less than 60... and the crew member above 60 could be either Captain or first officer. it is all explained in correct english on the ICAO website.

This way, france will be in no position to refuse overfly of it's territoty.

As for the youg guys wanting to put the older out of buiseness, they are pathetic and I sincerly hope they will never make it , even to the right seat, they do not deserve it.

[handflying]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

BTW, after reading handflyings post, is anyone else beginning to regret all the time and effort spent helping the many wannabes to get their first foot on the ladder?

We all thank someone to get their first foot on the ladder!! How did you get there? By God your talents!!!

H.Finn:

I enjoy it, keep in good shape (trying) but am just against the principle moving it for 5 years all at the sudden. I could maybe agree gradually, like for now 62 and in 10 years maybe 65 if studies can show safety etc? Anyway I am working financially wise to 60, whichever happens. It is not selfish but principle, fair.

What paying type-rating concerns never had any answer no?? What about 20 years ago? Have we moved forwards or backwards?

What familylife concerns: I still think family IS a big value and moving to whichever country can be done with wife and children but not with brothers, sisters, parents, etc. So there I don't think neither we have moved forward but rather backwards.

Where HAS progress been made in aviation the last 20 years? This new rule??? I keep big doubts!

[handflying]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Originally Posted by Rainboe

I agree with the point that if some of these aspiring wannabees would 'retire' from the professsion before wasting all that expense getting started, it would certainly ease up the pressure on their juniors following! The senior experienced people would then be able to give the job the benefit of their experience!

Rainboe:

Negative because you wouldn't be able to sleep anymore 3/4 of the flight and I don't wanna think how you'd like in that case...

[funfly]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

The young have always had this attitude to their elders and betters.
"Move over you old fart - we are on our way up".

[Jumbo Driver]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Originally Posted by funfly

The young have always had this attitude to their elders and betters.
"Move over you old fart - we are on our way up".

Yes indeed - and when they have got the old farts jobs they become just as resistant to being forcibly retired by the next group of self-interested upstarts snapping at their heels - and so it goes on ...

[Capt Claret]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Handflying, your tone puts me in mind of a spoilt child who squarks to get their own way, and I have little doubt that you'll be squarking louder when you're older and have youngsters telling you that you should retire to let them have a go.

[Margarita]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Handflying,
Go and change the job! Pressure like that can't be good for you.

[handflying]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

No argument of a relative young guy would stand against the "5 year golden handshake dollarbill" the older guy just sees on the other side of the fence!!
You deserve it, younger people not (they haven't paid their dues)

Maybe younger, as the same rule will apply to us or even worse later 70 (oh no...!!), we can have a more objective point of view about this as the dollars are a buy-product and we can think for the benefit of aviation in general...

Anyway, sorry you will still have to do with younger blokes and good luck with your medicals.

[Margarita]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

That's better, just keep waiting your turn! Think the way that some 100 years ago folks didn't even live up to 65. You may be able to keep flying easily until 70! And then you are talking big money...

[BlueEagle]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Dani - A number of studies into the older pilot's health have been conducted, one by a well known Specialist in Aviation Medicine who works in London.
I think you will find that the danger period for heart problems is between the ages of 48 and 58 so that 'line' you talk about isn't going to keep going up, is it?

and handflying, try to get it into your head that the age 60 rule doesn't go back to the dark ages, only about thirty years!

[skol]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Flying Guy,
If you are as you say you are and don't fly in US, Japanese, or French airspace (including Tahiti OCA) and can't divert enroute or at destination through this airspace:
1. You operate an extremely limited route structure or:
2. You operate extremely short range 747s.

[MungoP]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Fortunately I still have many years ahead of me but I would hate to think that I'm going to be booted out simply because of a date in my passport....
Some people are old at 35...others run marathons when into their 70's...
many of the the post war generation are physically a world apart from the previous generation for a variety of reasons involving medical care, diet and health awareness.
If a pilot is making the grade down-line and on base checks why the concern that someone is 60 yrs of age.... If their is real concern regarding physical health ( currently not born out by statistics ) then additional tests can easily be implemented such as stress ecg's. If the French are so concerned about air safety they would be better off targeting the problem of their pilots and ATC using the French language in busy international airspace. But let's not allow this to become yet another French bashing thread...

[Dani]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

I-FORD, the FAA study you cite here says (just as an example):

While less concerned about sudden incapacitation, OTA
(1990) was concerned about the effects of subtle age-related changes in cognitive abilities
that could have a significant influence on pilot performance.

I agree that after lifting the 60-years-ban, there will not fall hundreds of aircraft from the skies, but you and me, as everyone else, know, that with age, you are not as good anymore, your mind, your eyes, your whole body. Noone can deny it (except the pilots who still feel they are equal with gods).

I agree that one can discuss where this age limit has to lie and where we want to accept a certain risk, but there has to be a limit. I still think that 60 is a good one, since we have more responsibility than a clerk or some other "down-to-earth-employee". The above cited study always argues that "pilots have no more age degrading than other proffessions". Nobody doubts that, what a complete nonsense. But every failure in the air may lead to a dangerous situation.

Dani

[NiteKos]

Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old

Handfly after 40 years in the business two things come to mind.

Look after Number 1
Never expect to hear the words.. "After you"

You have a lot to learn, when the law changes nobody approaching 60 will give a toss about your own self interest. Life just aint fair, learn to live with it.