Air Atlanta Cargo incident Sharjah 07/11/04
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Hey Bobby, a maintenance audit on AAI now would turn up the same as it did in 1998, a BIG, FAT, ZERO ! 
Just keep working on that airline of yours, with it's fleet of 15 Tristars
Just keep working on that airline of yours, with it's fleet of 15 Tristars
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Hi all,
EARL,
When I operated AAI (or any other) cargo B747 Classic, we always only armed the L1 door for evacuation from the main deck, and the upper deck one (or both if they were fitted).
Not to preclude an evacuation from any other door, but that was always the norm.
and...Whiskery,
If any scrutiny of AAI maintenance was worth its salt, it would find a mind-boggling amount of discrepencies, and thats only from my own personal experiences there.
Give you just one example, happened back in late 2002 in Lagos.
The B747 pax airplane was down for a day for regular maintenance.
Late that night it was scheduled LOS-JFK.
Around 0200 local I was called out to crew that flight to JFK, because the a/c had returned to LOS with an engine shut down, and crew duty limits would not allow the original crew to continue. It was about an 11 hour flight, if I recall.
Very curious, I arrived at the airplane, crew still aboard (because pax were still aboard), and found out they had experienced a fire warning on #4 engine, shut it down, dumped lots of fuel, and landed with no real problems.
During the flight prep, I spoke to some of the maint. people, and found out that the engine mechanic had done the normal borescope check on all the engines the day prior, and had not replaced one of the access covers correctly on #4.
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!
Unfortunately, it was picked up by the fire warning system!
Not another thing was ever heard, and nobody in maint. wanted to talk about it - funny about that!
That incident was one of many I was involved with, thats why I'm now not there!
Don't talk to me about no problems at AAI!
Cheers
EARL,
When I operated AAI (or any other) cargo B747 Classic, we always only armed the L1 door for evacuation from the main deck, and the upper deck one (or both if they were fitted).
Not to preclude an evacuation from any other door, but that was always the norm.
and...Whiskery,
If any scrutiny of AAI maintenance was worth its salt, it would find a mind-boggling amount of discrepencies, and thats only from my own personal experiences there.
Give you just one example, happened back in late 2002 in Lagos.
The B747 pax airplane was down for a day for regular maintenance.
Late that night it was scheduled LOS-JFK.
Around 0200 local I was called out to crew that flight to JFK, because the a/c had returned to LOS with an engine shut down, and crew duty limits would not allow the original crew to continue. It was about an 11 hour flight, if I recall.
Very curious, I arrived at the airplane, crew still aboard (because pax were still aboard), and found out they had experienced a fire warning on #4 engine, shut it down, dumped lots of fuel, and landed with no real problems.
During the flight prep, I spoke to some of the maint. people, and found out that the engine mechanic had done the normal borescope check on all the engines the day prior, and had not replaced one of the access covers correctly on #4.
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!
Unfortunately, it was picked up by the fire warning system!
Not another thing was ever heard, and nobody in maint. wanted to talk about it - funny about that!
That incident was one of many I was involved with, thats why I'm now not there!
Don't talk to me about no problems at AAI!
Cheers
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Hey Flight Detent, would love to see you arm the L1 cargo door since its not fitted with a slide. All airlines, and I mean ALL airlines have had mishaps because of maintenance, flight crews, caters etc. so why do you only point to AAI? Have you ever worked for any other carrier?
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I've been sitting on the sidelines since this occured. In fact, I passed through SHJ a day after it happened.
I left AAI several months ago. The constant self sacrifice that was expected of the crews just wasn't worth it. Unless AAI has changed radically, the crews were constantly being asked to either not write anything up or if they did it was "fixed" with a BIC pen. The crews were always being akded to compromise their integrity with no back up from the company.
A case in point. I believe the aircraft was ARG, but the aircraft had a history of having the landing gear door light coming on in flight. It was written up by several crews, myself included, and the fix was to adjust the door switches. Finally, if I remember correctly, the aircraft was written up and non AAI mx looked at the problem. They discovered a cracked keel beam. There are lots of stories like that. PLEASE don't interpret this to say MX was the cause of the SHJ accident.
Off the top of my head, I would be more inclined to point the finger at training or the lack of it. I don't know if the head instructor on the 747 is still in that position, but his appaling lack of experience was amazing. He was a nice guy, even with a few beers in him and his face was beet red, he was still a nice guy. But he had no place in that position. Look at the former VP of Flights Ops.
Just my opinion.
I left AAI several months ago. The constant self sacrifice that was expected of the crews just wasn't worth it. Unless AAI has changed radically, the crews were constantly being asked to either not write anything up or if they did it was "fixed" with a BIC pen. The crews were always being akded to compromise their integrity with no back up from the company.
A case in point. I believe the aircraft was ARG, but the aircraft had a history of having the landing gear door light coming on in flight. It was written up by several crews, myself included, and the fix was to adjust the door switches. Finally, if I remember correctly, the aircraft was written up and non AAI mx looked at the problem. They discovered a cracked keel beam. There are lots of stories like that. PLEASE don't interpret this to say MX was the cause of the SHJ accident.
Off the top of my head, I would be more inclined to point the finger at training or the lack of it. I don't know if the head instructor on the 747 is still in that position, but his appaling lack of experience was amazing. He was a nice guy, even with a few beers in him and his face was beet red, he was still a nice guy. But he had no place in that position. Look at the former VP of Flights Ops.
Just my opinion.
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To all self professed "Profesional Aviators" 
Will you all PLEASE stop commenting on maintenace standards, you have not got a clue what that means, good or bad. If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot
Brgds
Doc
Will you all PLEASE stop commenting on maintenace standards, you have not got a clue what that means, good or bad. If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot
Brgds
Doc
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Problem is, Doc, the folks at the pointy end have to face these maintenance problems firsthand, and oftentimes not from the safety of the tarmac either.
And, the problem is not from the line mx either (generally), but the management culture in the head shed.
And, the problem is not from the line mx either (generally), but the management culture in the head shed.
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Whiskery,
The only reason AAI did not take a fall in 98 was because some of the MX people were smart enough to stay one step ahead of the inspectors! Case in point; I personally know of the incident in MAD where the MX people were hiding a car full of bogus parts on the airport trying to stay on step ahead of the inspectors. God knows what they did at other stations!
I also know of a Tristar that had a two engine ferry after an engine failure. MX did the required borescope of the other two engines. The mechanic that did the borescope inspection of these engines would not sign off the inspection because of the shape that they were in so another mechanic signed it off. One week after the engine change one of the two "good" engines failed!
MX at AAI is weak! Management at AAI SUCKS! I did my time at AAI and I would rather work under the golden arches. At least working at McDonalds you have a schedule and get to go home once in a while!
Classic
p.s. And for you Doc, I am a "Licensed Engineer".
The only reason AAI did not take a fall in 98 was because some of the MX people were smart enough to stay one step ahead of the inspectors! Case in point; I personally know of the incident in MAD where the MX people were hiding a car full of bogus parts on the airport trying to stay on step ahead of the inspectors. God knows what they did at other stations!
I also know of a Tristar that had a two engine ferry after an engine failure. MX did the required borescope of the other two engines. The mechanic that did the borescope inspection of these engines would not sign off the inspection because of the shape that they were in so another mechanic signed it off. One week after the engine change one of the two "good" engines failed!
MX at AAI is weak! Management at AAI SUCKS! I did my time at AAI and I would rather work under the golden arches. At least working at McDonalds you have a schedule and get to go home once in a while!
Classic
p.s. And for you Doc, I am a "Licensed Engineer".
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DoctorA300, I usually try to avoid personalised posts, but I'll make an exception.
I don't know if you worked/work for AAI. But, I have. It sucks. Worst place imaginable. I couldn't agree with 747Classic more. I pulled the plug because of the wide spread problems at AAI. Sad thing is the people who make it work are among some of the most competent in the industry. That's what had kept AAI afloat. However, there is a gigantic sucking noise in KEF. That's the void created by the lack of management. I'd like to tell you I saw the handwriting on the wall, but the simple fact is I was lucky. I had another job offer and jumped at the chance to leave AAI.
If you re-read my post, no where did I as a "Professional Aviator", as you call us, comment on the MX standards. The real problem at AAI is there are none! The only time things get fixed is when the flight crew refuses to take the aircraft. In fact, are the freighters RNP5 yet? I know for a fact, when the freighter operation first got going, the management just bypassed the fact RNP5 was required to operate in DXB.
In my post I related an incident that happened to me and some other crews I know. That incident is a fact. If you have anything to add about that specific aircraft or incident, by all means jump in. However to castigate someone for stating his/her opinion about AAI is as you say, B*llocks!
I don't know if you worked/work for AAI. But, I have. It sucks. Worst place imaginable. I couldn't agree with 747Classic more. I pulled the plug because of the wide spread problems at AAI. Sad thing is the people who make it work are among some of the most competent in the industry. That's what had kept AAI afloat. However, there is a gigantic sucking noise in KEF. That's the void created by the lack of management. I'd like to tell you I saw the handwriting on the wall, but the simple fact is I was lucky. I had another job offer and jumped at the chance to leave AAI.
If you re-read my post, no where did I as a "Professional Aviator", as you call us, comment on the MX standards. The real problem at AAI is there are none! The only time things get fixed is when the flight crew refuses to take the aircraft. In fact, are the freighters RNP5 yet? I know for a fact, when the freighter operation first got going, the management just bypassed the fact RNP5 was required to operate in DXB.
In my post I related an incident that happened to me and some other crews I know. That incident is a fact. If you have anything to add about that specific aircraft or incident, by all means jump in. However to castigate someone for stating his/her opinion about AAI is as you say, B*llocks!
Last edited by Phil Squares; 20th Nov 2004 at 01:25.
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Phil is right.
But Phil, I also try to understand what Doctor is actually saying without his intention to do so:
" If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
(?? !!!! (in AAI) !!!!! ??)
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot "
There are two reasons he is obviously working for AAI.
1. His vigorous defending position of MX at AAI.
2. Hi is writing from Sweden. Well most mx in AAI comes from that area.
But Phil, I also try to understand what Doctor is actually saying without his intention to do so:
" If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
(?? !!!! (in AAI) !!!!! ??)
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot "
There are two reasons he is obviously working for AAI.
1. His vigorous defending position of MX at AAI.
2. Hi is writing from Sweden. Well most mx in AAI comes from that area.
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After reading through the last few posts, I think a few early posters owe 411A an apology or at least admit they were wrong. Will they have the backbone to do it?
Please 411A, tell us some more of your experiences.
Please 411A, tell us some more of your experiences.
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Phil Squares
Excuse me!! "An appalling lack of experience", have never been an obstacle for command, training and management positions at AAI. You forgot to add, one more, an appalling lack of man management skills.
Now AAE, that's a different kettle of fish..
Excuse me!! "An appalling lack of experience", have never been an obstacle for command, training and management positions at AAI. You forgot to add, one more, an appalling lack of man management skills.
Now AAE, that's a different kettle of fish..
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Oh, there are so many, punkalouver....
< INU's replaced with no serviceable tags in sight (no s/n off/on either), and when asked 'where is the data?' told to 'mind your own business'.
-or-
<INU's 'updated' with RNP10 mods...that never worked, yet no MX action taken
-or-
<Engines trimmed in MAN for proper rated thrust, but not meeting same downroute, due to ambient temperatures...repeated write-ups about this, but no action taken...until the Commander on the scene said 'enough is enough' and planned an enroute tech stop to reduce departure weight.
-or-
A so-called 'base commander' trying to ferry engine inop without proper training in the procedure, and MX saying 'good show'
-or-
<Having folks in MZJ strip a TriStar of spares, without having these same spares properly documented by a DAR as 'serviceable', then using 'em on line equipment in the UK...still without the proper tags.
There had to be a reason why the UKCAA grounded 'em in '98, and the previous comments by others have clearly demonstrated why.
Clearly the company has a problem in the MX area, and it is only the dedication of flight crew that have kept 'em in the air, up to now.
Notice that there are a few here who defend the company without reservation, while others have had enough...and moved on.
Generally, where there is smoke, fire cannot be far behind.
Is another SHJ in the making, I wonder?
The company has gotten much larger now than in years past, yet apparently the corporate culture remains the same.
Severe difficulties ahead, undoubtedly.
< INU's replaced with no serviceable tags in sight (no s/n off/on either), and when asked 'where is the data?' told to 'mind your own business'.
-or-
<INU's 'updated' with RNP10 mods...that never worked, yet no MX action taken
-or-
<Engines trimmed in MAN for proper rated thrust, but not meeting same downroute, due to ambient temperatures...repeated write-ups about this, but no action taken...until the Commander on the scene said 'enough is enough' and planned an enroute tech stop to reduce departure weight.
-or-
A so-called 'base commander' trying to ferry engine inop without proper training in the procedure, and MX saying 'good show'
-or-
<Having folks in MZJ strip a TriStar of spares, without having these same spares properly documented by a DAR as 'serviceable', then using 'em on line equipment in the UK...still without the proper tags.
There had to be a reason why the UKCAA grounded 'em in '98, and the previous comments by others have clearly demonstrated why.
Clearly the company has a problem in the MX area, and it is only the dedication of flight crew that have kept 'em in the air, up to now.
Notice that there are a few here who defend the company without reservation, while others have had enough...and moved on.
Generally, where there is smoke, fire cannot be far behind.
Is another SHJ in the making, I wonder?
The company has gotten much larger now than in years past, yet apparently the corporate culture remains the same.
Severe difficulties ahead, undoubtedly.
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Green Guard,
Men might be from Mars and women from venus, but you my son, must be from f@cking Pluto......what in my post made you deduct that I am, or indeed have been, working for Air Atlanta. And me residing in Sweden, should make me geographicly close to iceland, sunshine, Aberdeen is closer.
411A, 747Classic, Phil Squares and others,
My post was written rather late at night, not that this is an excuse, but still. The point I was trying to make was that you might have a good insight into the managerial/political workings of your OPS department, much more so than your engineers have into the technical department. But if you are worried about the maintenance standards in your company, start by backing up your engineers when they try to do the right thing, I speak from experience when I say that that rarely happens.
747Classic, I know you are an engineer
Brgds
Doc
Men might be from Mars and women from venus, but you my son, must be from f@cking Pluto......what in my post made you deduct that I am, or indeed have been, working for Air Atlanta. And me residing in Sweden, should make me geographicly close to iceland, sunshine, Aberdeen is closer.
411A, 747Classic, Phil Squares and others,
My post was written rather late at night, not that this is an excuse, but still. The point I was trying to make was that you might have a good insight into the managerial/political workings of your OPS department, much more so than your engineers have into the technical department. But if you are worried about the maintenance standards in your company, start by backing up your engineers when they try to do the right thing, I speak from experience when I say that that rarely happens.
747Classic, I know you are an engineer
Brgds
Doc
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DoctorA300. I really don't have to worry about AAI any more. While I was there, I would back the engineers 1000%. Problem was there was nothing to back! Again, if you were there you know what I mean. If you weren't there, then you really can't comment on it.
I will give you another example. I wrote up one of the freighters shortly after it was delivered. The Litton 72or 92 data base was out of date we're talking years not days or months! You know what the solution was? Update the GPS data base. It took multiple writeups before the database was updated. It's not a matter of backing up the engineers, it's a matter of doing what's right. No more, no less
I will give you another example. I wrote up one of the freighters shortly after it was delivered. The Litton 72or 92 data base was out of date we're talking years not days or months! You know what the solution was? Update the GPS data base. It took multiple writeups before the database was updated. It's not a matter of backing up the engineers, it's a matter of doing what's right. No more, no less
Last edited by Phil Squares; 20th Nov 2004 at 12:32.
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Phil,
You are right, I have never worked for AAI, so I can't comment on that company.
My comments in the previous post was not so much directed at what was being said about AAI, more about pilots commenting on maintenance in general.
Sorry about the "profecional aviator" comment, it was not meant to insult you personally, I get a bit strung out about the various capt. Huff'nPuff's I have come across over the last 25 years. As a licensed engineer I am getting more and more p1ssed off, having to deal with these individuals that seem to be a fountain of knowledge and insight, as long as they don't have to put it writing or otherwise be held accountable for their opinions.
The exable you gave with the Litton database, I am sorry to say I have experienced before, on a very large British carrier, things like this often happen due to segregation of trades, like the English, Australian, Irish and Icelandic do.
It might seem strange to you, but I have come across more than a dozen A/C guys that would not know what an FMC roughly does or an IRU for that matter.
In Iceland it is common practice for the aspiring aircraft engineers to go to the US, get employed in an aircraft maintenance outfit a study for their AP license, upon returning to Iceland they can then directly convert that to an Icelandic ICAO class II.
Brgds
Doc
You are right, I have never worked for AAI, so I can't comment on that company.
My comments in the previous post was not so much directed at what was being said about AAI, more about pilots commenting on maintenance in general.
Sorry about the "profecional aviator" comment, it was not meant to insult you personally, I get a bit strung out about the various capt. Huff'nPuff's I have come across over the last 25 years. As a licensed engineer I am getting more and more p1ssed off, having to deal with these individuals that seem to be a fountain of knowledge and insight, as long as they don't have to put it writing or otherwise be held accountable for their opinions.
The exable you gave with the Litton database, I am sorry to say I have experienced before, on a very large British carrier, things like this often happen due to segregation of trades, like the English, Australian, Irish and Icelandic do.
It might seem strange to you, but I have come across more than a dozen A/C guys that would not know what an FMC roughly does or an IRU for that matter.
In Iceland it is common practice for the aspiring aircraft engineers to go to the US, get employed in an aircraft maintenance outfit a study for their AP license, upon returning to Iceland they can then directly convert that to an Icelandic ICAO class II.
Brgds
Doc
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During the flight prep, I spoke to some of the maint. people, and found out that the engine mechanic had done the normal borescope check on all the engines the day prior, and had not replaced one of the access covers correctly on #4.
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!
FYI when I worked for AAI as a certifying engineer this also happened.at that time there was no requirement for a borescope plug to have an independent inspection further more when It happened when I was there(in Madrid)it was the RR borescope instructor who left it off,so is that AAIs fault? I think not and neither did anyone else.I worked for AAI for a total of 4 years and can say the maintenance guys(many who I am still in contact with)are first rate.
matkat
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!
FYI when I worked for AAI as a certifying engineer this also happened.at that time there was no requirement for a borescope plug to have an independent inspection further more when It happened when I was there(in Madrid)it was the RR borescope instructor who left it off,so is that AAIs fault? I think not and neither did anyone else.I worked for AAI for a total of 4 years and can say the maintenance guys(many who I am still in contact with)are first rate.
matkat
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Well well, so far........
It looks like this accident has nothing to do with any maintanance!
Sorry 411A,------ a.h.
Doctor 300.
I don't believe your temper is there all the time...
OK I am sorry to suggest you are from AAI.
But,
may I ask you here to give some more light according to your own view on operation on "ANY aircraft by Flight Crew"?
Unless you are still scared
that I would shoot you down like the parrot.
It looks like this accident has nothing to do with any maintanance!
Sorry 411A,------ a.h.
Doctor 300.
I don't believe your temper is there all the time...
OK I am sorry to suggest you are from AAI.
But,
may I ask you here to give some more light according to your own view on operation on "ANY aircraft by Flight Crew"?
Unless you are still scared
that I would shoot you down like the parrot.
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I just overheard a rumour, and I really hope I am wrong about this or recieved bad information .
Upon inspection of another aircraft in which maintanence was performed by LH they found 4 brakes to be capped off in which the MEL only allows two.
Also no log book writeups were to be found concerning this aircraft with the capped 4 brakes.
Like I stated I hope I am wrong but this is what we are hearing.
If true its sad that a major airline has to stoop to these levels of hiding and allowing aircraft to operate against the MEL.
I have heard some say that if you ground an aircraft then you really dont know the aircraft.
Everyone can read, if the MEL says NO then it means NO!
If allowed to operate with inoperative equipment then a procedure or guidance is given, in no way can you ever make this up on your own stating that you know the aircraft and its allowed!
I read a while back some one posted that everyone thinks they are smarter than Mr. Boeing and the DDPG.
If we dont do this then we will lose the contract!
Better a contract lost than a aircraft hull lost and multiple deaths.
Collateral damage is not allowed in this industry!
We all operate by the MEL and the SOP'S.
These standards are established, Once we exceed these standards we create an new standard, before long we have no standards at all.
Upon inspection of another aircraft in which maintanence was performed by LH they found 4 brakes to be capped off in which the MEL only allows two.
Also no log book writeups were to be found concerning this aircraft with the capped 4 brakes.
Like I stated I hope I am wrong but this is what we are hearing.
If true its sad that a major airline has to stoop to these levels of hiding and allowing aircraft to operate against the MEL.
I have heard some say that if you ground an aircraft then you really dont know the aircraft.
Everyone can read, if the MEL says NO then it means NO!
If allowed to operate with inoperative equipment then a procedure or guidance is given, in no way can you ever make this up on your own stating that you know the aircraft and its allowed!
I read a while back some one posted that everyone thinks they are smarter than Mr. Boeing and the DDPG.
If we dont do this then we will lose the contract!
Better a contract lost than a aircraft hull lost and multiple deaths.
Collateral damage is not allowed in this industry!
We all operate by the MEL and the SOP'S.
These standards are established, Once we exceed these standards we create an new standard, before long we have no standards at all.
Last edited by Earl; 24th Nov 2004 at 19:40.
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If true its sad that a major airline has to stoop to these levels of hiding and allowing aircraft to operate against the MEL.