BA CSD's salary revealed in Daily telegraph
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I'd like to have my say on the subject of cabin crew being unskilled and overpaid.
Many years ago (approx 16) I checked in to work a flight from LHR to BFS. I was the Flight Service Manager on that particular flight.
Shortly after take off there was an engine problem which resulted in the skipper making a diversion to EMA.
The engine problem was in fact one of the fan blades breaking off and getting sucked into the engine which resulted in the engine having to be shut down because of the damage that was caused.
The aircraft started to vibrate badly and the 126 passengers onboard were starting to panic. Including myself there were 6 cabin crew. We really had out work cut out for us in trying to keep everyone calm, collect in meal trays and secure the cabin. I took it upon myself to tell the crew to prepare the cabin for a emergency landing (ie absolutly no baggage on the floors etc) even though at this stage it was just a diversion.
The crew were fantastic, all remained calm and kept everyone else calm.
I think anyone that has been around a while may remember the outcome. We crash landed on the M1 motorway and the aircraft broke into 3 parts with the loss of 47 lives.
Please do not refer to cabin crew as over paid glorified waiting staff. I know and appreciate what happened to me was the exception, these incidents don't happen every day, but it did happen and it did happen to me.
Even to this day I can still re-call people screaming for help after the impact & the sight of dead bodies.
Lets all treat each other with a little bit of respect - its really not that much to ask for is it?
Many years ago (approx 16) I checked in to work a flight from LHR to BFS. I was the Flight Service Manager on that particular flight.
Shortly after take off there was an engine problem which resulted in the skipper making a diversion to EMA.
The engine problem was in fact one of the fan blades breaking off and getting sucked into the engine which resulted in the engine having to be shut down because of the damage that was caused.
The aircraft started to vibrate badly and the 126 passengers onboard were starting to panic. Including myself there were 6 cabin crew. We really had out work cut out for us in trying to keep everyone calm, collect in meal trays and secure the cabin. I took it upon myself to tell the crew to prepare the cabin for a emergency landing (ie absolutly no baggage on the floors etc) even though at this stage it was just a diversion.
The crew were fantastic, all remained calm and kept everyone else calm.
I think anyone that has been around a while may remember the outcome. We crash landed on the M1 motorway and the aircraft broke into 3 parts with the loss of 47 lives.
Please do not refer to cabin crew as over paid glorified waiting staff. I know and appreciate what happened to me was the exception, these incidents don't happen every day, but it did happen and it did happen to me.
Even to this day I can still re-call people screaming for help after the impact & the sight of dead bodies.
Lets all treat each other with a little bit of respect - its really not that much to ask for is it?
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i,ve done alot them but I dont think i've slagged off cabin crew in general,but it is a case of the tail wagging the dog, time the dog got a grip or as pax we get value for the money we pay for tickets and the company gets value for the money it pays them. people harping on about length of service etc.etc. Well they are then by definition the attitude forming influential senior service directors and the service is crap ex lhr...go figure.
I must say i do like the new uniform, doing wonders for my inter company relations.
I must say i do like the new uniform, doing wonders for my inter company relations.
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OzzieO......I don't think you can follow your post.....unfortunately dicksynormous has and in the process made himself out to be the idiot he really is.
Both me and my girlfriend are CC for BA and have just read your post. I have to say our heart has gone out to you and the fact that you still get on an aircraft shows your strength of character after such an event.
It is however something that we as CC are trained to deal with and our primary reason that we are on the aircraft at all is to save pax should an emergency situation arise, not to look good in a uniform or to serve tea or coffee etc etc etc as so many on here think that is what we do.
I'm sure Easy or Ryan would do away with CC all together if they could to cut costs but we are there for a reason, for those few terrible terrifying times when things do go wrong. When the pilots are doing their thing...we are doing ours...and I'm not talking about walking through the cabin with the shopping the world trolley!!!
In an emergency situation it has been proved that survival of pax depends largely on the effectiveness of the CC (and of course the pilots doing their jobs) to perform their tasks and duties and to calm pax and ensure all that can be done is done, before and after an incident.
This will happen only if the PSR or CSD is calm, stays in control and ensures we as crew remain calm and in control and remember and carry out our drills.
God forbid anything like the events OzzieO describes ever happens to me or mine and every flight goes by the numbers and everyone gets their tea and coffee and leaves the aircraft safe and sound.
But in the few incidences when I or my gf have had to deal with medical events or SEP situations, the pax have been more than grateful for our presence and professionalism and have realised there are times when we more than earn our wages.
Finally...once again...OzzieO. You are a true hero to have done what you did...made it through...and then got back on an aircraft. I think you have silenced a lot of people on here and given people another view on our "easy" career choice.
Interesting how the flow of posts suddenly stopped as well......
Safe flying to all.
Both me and my girlfriend are CC for BA and have just read your post. I have to say our heart has gone out to you and the fact that you still get on an aircraft shows your strength of character after such an event.
It is however something that we as CC are trained to deal with and our primary reason that we are on the aircraft at all is to save pax should an emergency situation arise, not to look good in a uniform or to serve tea or coffee etc etc etc as so many on here think that is what we do.
I'm sure Easy or Ryan would do away with CC all together if they could to cut costs but we are there for a reason, for those few terrible terrifying times when things do go wrong. When the pilots are doing their thing...we are doing ours...and I'm not talking about walking through the cabin with the shopping the world trolley!!!
In an emergency situation it has been proved that survival of pax depends largely on the effectiveness of the CC (and of course the pilots doing their jobs) to perform their tasks and duties and to calm pax and ensure all that can be done is done, before and after an incident.
This will happen only if the PSR or CSD is calm, stays in control and ensures we as crew remain calm and in control and remember and carry out our drills.
God forbid anything like the events OzzieO describes ever happens to me or mine and every flight goes by the numbers and everyone gets their tea and coffee and leaves the aircraft safe and sound.
But in the few incidences when I or my gf have had to deal with medical events or SEP situations, the pax have been more than grateful for our presence and professionalism and have realised there are times when we more than earn our wages.
Finally...once again...OzzieO. You are a true hero to have done what you did...made it through...and then got back on an aircraft. I think you have silenced a lot of people on here and given people another view on our "easy" career choice.
Interesting how the flow of posts suddenly stopped as well......
Safe flying to all.
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No-one would deny that Kegworth was a defining moment in aviation history. However the thread is about CSD's salary, so I will resume the flow of postings.
The point made by the poster above reinforces the reason that cc are on board, it is for the safety of the pax. Anything else is a bonus. So in the light of that, salaries at BA's level are unsustainably high. They should be compared to the market rate. The average BA cc costs the company approx 10k per annum more than the next nearest employer (My Travel). (Source: CAA website) There are very few airlines in which cc consider they might have a 30yr career, cabin crew is seen as a short-term, low-paid option (similar to the catering trade) for a few years that people choose for other reasons than salary. After a while, reality bites and female cc get married then pregnant, then leave the job permanently.
This whole thread is based on the premise that at BA, this argument is not the case and cc in many instances are being paid more than the far more highly qualified pilots.
All this talk of deserving the money for having years of abuse thrown at them ignores the fact that in most other companies there are very few cc over the age of 30.
(steps back with fingers in ears)
PS: for those about to flame me I am just off on leave for 2 weeks to a place far from the internet so save your fingers
The point made by the poster above reinforces the reason that cc are on board, it is for the safety of the pax. Anything else is a bonus. So in the light of that, salaries at BA's level are unsustainably high. They should be compared to the market rate. The average BA cc costs the company approx 10k per annum more than the next nearest employer (My Travel). (Source: CAA website) There are very few airlines in which cc consider they might have a 30yr career, cabin crew is seen as a short-term, low-paid option (similar to the catering trade) for a few years that people choose for other reasons than salary. After a while, reality bites and female cc get married then pregnant, then leave the job permanently.
This whole thread is based on the premise that at BA, this argument is not the case and cc in many instances are being paid more than the far more highly qualified pilots.
All this talk of deserving the money for having years of abuse thrown at them ignores the fact that in most other companies there are very few cc over the age of 30.
(steps back with fingers in ears)
PS: for those about to flame me I am just off on leave for 2 weeks to a place far from the internet so save your fingers
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we lie in the shadows.
My post had nothing to do with the preceeding one.
This post is not about kegworth.
You are entitled to your cuddly woolly opinions and i to my more black and white ones. I'll be clear for you : My beef is about lhr standards, the lack of leading from the front and the ridiculous money paid to not lead, not cabin crew in general.
I dont know if you both are idiots or not so i wont comment , unlike you.
My post had nothing to do with the preceeding one.
This post is not about kegworth.
You are entitled to your cuddly woolly opinions and i to my more black and white ones. I'll be clear for you : My beef is about lhr standards, the lack of leading from the front and the ridiculous money paid to not lead, not cabin crew in general.
I dont know if you both are idiots or not so i wont comment , unlike you.
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BANG OR WEST said :
I think you'll find that the Destination Payments aren't paid to people because they are working to undesireable places, but because they are working on particularly difficult flights.
All of the "Two Class" routes at Gatwick get the Destination Payment because you're dealing with twice as many passengers as normal (that's Orlando - a fab place, Tampa - a fab place and Kingston - a fab place).
Over at Heathrow, the payments are awarded to things like Denver and Seattle because the flight times are long, the time changes are significant and the stop is only for one night where crew operating to LAX and SFO get two nights (I believe).
It's not about the place we're flying to, it's about the flight itself. A misleading name, perhaps, but still something the crew deserve.
ALSO, I'm going to make the assumption that you're ground crew here because of your knowledge of our payment structure and the fact that you're soooo anti-destination payment (as ground crew famously are); why do you get a free pair of Hotline tickets for "just doing your job"???? You are employed to deal with the good times and the bad and the company shouldn't have to throw a couple of free tickets at you to ensure your continued loyalty.
How can you justify "Destination Payments" for such undesireable parts of the world like the hellholes (not) of Seattle, Miami and the countless other places where the Cabin Crew get a ridiculous extra payment for, er, doing their job.
All of the "Two Class" routes at Gatwick get the Destination Payment because you're dealing with twice as many passengers as normal (that's Orlando - a fab place, Tampa - a fab place and Kingston - a fab place).
Over at Heathrow, the payments are awarded to things like Denver and Seattle because the flight times are long, the time changes are significant and the stop is only for one night where crew operating to LAX and SFO get two nights (I believe).
It's not about the place we're flying to, it's about the flight itself. A misleading name, perhaps, but still something the crew deserve.
ALSO, I'm going to make the assumption that you're ground crew here because of your knowledge of our payment structure and the fact that you're soooo anti-destination payment (as ground crew famously are); why do you get a free pair of Hotline tickets for "just doing your job"???? You are employed to deal with the good times and the bad and the company shouldn't have to throw a couple of free tickets at you to ensure your continued loyalty.
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I think you'll find that the Destination Payments aren't paid to people because they are working to undesireable places, but because they are working on particularly difficult flights.
Such stress and difficulty. Give me strength.
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Well it does seem amazing to me that the salaries can prompt so much discussion. One would have thought that the BA system would be much more transparent and that, if the estimates are true, the reaction from other crew would be 'so what'.
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To put an alternative slant on this discussion, here are a few pay scales for other professions with high levels of training and responsibility (NB excludes overtime pay, out of hours pay etc):
Senior House Officer (hospital doctor): £24,587 - £34,477
Fire fighter (5 years experience): £23,175
University lecturer with PhD age 30: £23,643
Police Officer (5 years experience): £24,852
Teacher (5 years experience): £25,137
Pretty undeniable that the CSD is getting a rather generous and unsustainable package, surely?
Dr Dave
Senior House Officer (hospital doctor): £24,587 - £34,477
Fire fighter (5 years experience): £23,175
University lecturer with PhD age 30: £23,643
Police Officer (5 years experience): £24,852
Teacher (5 years experience): £25,137
Pretty undeniable that the CSD is getting a rather generous and unsustainable package, surely?
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AndyPandy : Ever the voice of reason and maturity!!
Thanks for the input, AP. Have you ever worked one of these flights? If you're cabin crew with the company, I can't imagine you ever complaining about getting £XXX for flying to these destinations. If you're not crew with BA, I wouldn't imagine that you've operated on any of these routes (Seattle/Denver/Tampa to London) as we're the only carrier to do it.
The crew (on the SEA and DEN) have to endure long flights with only about 20 hours downroute (a few hours of which is spent getting to and from the airports) and major time changes. They deserve a little extra for it.
It would be nice if you would divulge what YOU do for a living. Are you cabin crew? Flight crew? Cabin crew with another carrier? A wannabee who has been rejected by British Airways in the past and is therefore bitter about what we earn?
If you don't work for the company, it shouldn't be a concern to you how much money the crew with BA take home at the end of the month.
There are lots of posts above saying that we're overpaid but just think; the crew who carried out a full-scale evacuation in Houston a month or so back earned their money ten-times-over. Ain't anybody who can deny that. We're not overpaid, we're just fairly well paid. Go to any of the people who were on that Houston flight and tell them that they are overpaid and I guarantee you, you'll gat a slap across the chops and a kick in the goolies as a thank-you.
Thanks for the input, AP. Have you ever worked one of these flights? If you're cabin crew with the company, I can't imagine you ever complaining about getting £XXX for flying to these destinations. If you're not crew with BA, I wouldn't imagine that you've operated on any of these routes (Seattle/Denver/Tampa to London) as we're the only carrier to do it.
The crew (on the SEA and DEN) have to endure long flights with only about 20 hours downroute (a few hours of which is spent getting to and from the airports) and major time changes. They deserve a little extra for it.
It would be nice if you would divulge what YOU do for a living. Are you cabin crew? Flight crew? Cabin crew with another carrier? A wannabee who has been rejected by British Airways in the past and is therefore bitter about what we earn?
If you don't work for the company, it shouldn't be a concern to you how much money the crew with BA take home at the end of the month.
There are lots of posts above saying that we're overpaid but just think; the crew who carried out a full-scale evacuation in Houston a month or so back earned their money ten-times-over. Ain't anybody who can deny that. We're not overpaid, we're just fairly well paid. Go to any of the people who were on that Houston flight and tell them that they are overpaid and I guarantee you, you'll gat a slap across the chops and a kick in the goolies as a thank-you.
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Pretty undeniable that the CSD is getting a rather generous and unsustainable package, surely?
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It would be nice if you would divulge what YOU do for a living. Are you cabin crew? Flight crew? Cabin crew with another carrier? A wannabee who has been rejected by British Airways in the past and is therefore bitter about what we earn?
Now let me see... Denver is around 10 hours flying time, so that will be about 2:30 each in the bunks then only 20 hours off before doing the same again back home.
Yup, seems horrendously gruelling to me.
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What's done is done.... These contracts and pay agreements were signed many years ago, in a different era, a pre-911 era and a pre low cost era.
A land in the sand has been drawn by BA.
And you'll find now that crew (like myself) on the new contract are earning not a dissimilar amount to other carriers...
My 1100 take home this month is most certainly *NOT* 10k a year higher than the next highest paid cabin crew. It is also lower than the salary of most of those other 'comparitive' jobs posted earlier.
So whilst you can't take back what is done, BA can and will focus on lowering costs for the future...
And as these people fizzle out of the system (resignations, retirements, etc), then the cost base will continue to fall... and the Senior FO's can breathe a sigh of relief yet again that the average Cabin Crew wage will be well below their own.
This is the BA of now... whilst BA can search for efficiencies in operating allowances, in crew complement, in working agreements to minimise the cost of those on such salaries... for those of us who've joined in the last 5 years and for all the swathe of new recruits, BA is getting us at a rate very close to the Cabin Crew national average.
Something that those on here who like to shout and scream to bring attention to overpaid salaries might like to consider...
A land in the sand has been drawn by BA.
And you'll find now that crew (like myself) on the new contract are earning not a dissimilar amount to other carriers...
My 1100 take home this month is most certainly *NOT* 10k a year higher than the next highest paid cabin crew. It is also lower than the salary of most of those other 'comparitive' jobs posted earlier.
So whilst you can't take back what is done, BA can and will focus on lowering costs for the future...
And as these people fizzle out of the system (resignations, retirements, etc), then the cost base will continue to fall... and the Senior FO's can breathe a sigh of relief yet again that the average Cabin Crew wage will be well below their own.
This is the BA of now... whilst BA can search for efficiencies in operating allowances, in crew complement, in working agreements to minimise the cost of those on such salaries... for those of us who've joined in the last 5 years and for all the swathe of new recruits, BA is getting us at a rate very close to the Cabin Crew national average.
Something that those on here who like to shout and scream to bring attention to overpaid salaries might like to consider...
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Well you'll all be pleased to know that the CSD grade will no longer exist at LGW. By 2006 BA LGW will be a mid fleet as far a CC are concerned on the EF LGW contract - already on hourly rate. There will be no more CSD grade and flights will be taken our by the most senior of the two Pursers that will be on board on the day.
I hope that makes a lot of you happy.
It does seem a lot of sour grapes are being aired on here, I'm sure if I was a pilot that was getting paid less than if I'd joined BA and become a CSD who is now getting more than I am I would be pissed off to some degree as well Het...I might even wish I'd applied to be CC myself instead of becoming a pilot. However hind sight is a wonderful thing and I can assure you that BA post JAN 97 (cabin crew stike) contracts are far less lucrative for us.
If you as a person joined a company to do a job that you love and found that you were getting paid a awesome wage... and eventually if they stayed long term...got paid even more!...wouldn't you stay?
If I remember rightly some pilots who trained on the cadetship before the gulf war errupted were redirected and trained as CC until there was a requirement for more pilots. Also if I remeber rightly a small number of these people decided not resume their careers as pilots and carry on as CC.
You can't blame anyone for getting paid what their contract says they should get paid when they signed it. It's not their fault, and there is no way that the company can ask them to get paid less (in their basic anyway). So don't begrudge these long serving people what they have now just because they stayed the course or saw a great oppotunity. Move on... and get off the cross!!! We need the wood!!!
If any pilot or civvy really thinks that post Jan 97 BA CC get paid too much then they are more than welcome to give up their career and come join our ranks.
Basic is £9200 plus allowances and benefits and I look forward to training you.
I hope that makes a lot of you happy.
It does seem a lot of sour grapes are being aired on here, I'm sure if I was a pilot that was getting paid less than if I'd joined BA and become a CSD who is now getting more than I am I would be pissed off to some degree as well Het...I might even wish I'd applied to be CC myself instead of becoming a pilot. However hind sight is a wonderful thing and I can assure you that BA post JAN 97 (cabin crew stike) contracts are far less lucrative for us.
If you as a person joined a company to do a job that you love and found that you were getting paid a awesome wage... and eventually if they stayed long term...got paid even more!...wouldn't you stay?
If I remember rightly some pilots who trained on the cadetship before the gulf war errupted were redirected and trained as CC until there was a requirement for more pilots. Also if I remeber rightly a small number of these people decided not resume their careers as pilots and carry on as CC.
You can't blame anyone for getting paid what their contract says they should get paid when they signed it. It's not their fault, and there is no way that the company can ask them to get paid less (in their basic anyway). So don't begrudge these long serving people what they have now just because they stayed the course or saw a great oppotunity. Move on... and get off the cross!!! We need the wood!!!
If any pilot or civvy really thinks that post Jan 97 BA CC get paid too much then they are more than welcome to give up their career and come join our ranks.
Basic is £9200 plus allowances and benefits and I look forward to training you.
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Welieintheshadows
I´m sure I misunderstand you here...but I´d hate to equate what CC and BA pilots do to be equal to the troops serving out in Iraq or wherever....most of whom are on a lot less than the CSD in question.
If any pilot or civvy really thinks that post Jan 97 BA CC get paid too much then they are more than welcome to give up their career and come join our ranks.
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I posted a link to BA cabin crew salaries while ago. The link has since been removed.
Someone called "Golden Runways" was so incensed by the publication of these outrageous salaries that they wrote to Danny and threatened to report me to BA (assuming that the website was mine-DOH). Danny quite rightly put them right.
They complained as follows. Ashamed are they?
But beware this person is a BA snitch.
NN
Someone called "Golden Runways" was so incensed by the publication of these outrageous salaries that they wrote to Danny and threatened to report me to BA (assuming that the website was mine-DOH). Danny quite rightly put them right.
They complained as follows. Ashamed are they?
But beware this person is a BA snitch.
This post is very aggressive. I will also check with British Airways to see if normal_nigel aka xxxxx has breached confidentiality rules by posting these internal documents. Do you believe the post and links to be appropriate? Thank you for your time in dealing with this matter. I will wait until 1630 before contacting BA.
NN
Last edited by normal_nigel; 6th Oct 2004 at 21:22.
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Oh the claws are out on this one! Love it!
Just to toss a bit of fuel onto the fire, currently running on the BA BALPA forum is a thread of 'pilots who have been sent the wrong payslip to their home address'. One advises he got a LHR Purser' payslip, and most ungentlemanly spilled the beans- she got a shade under £3k takehome, and more than his goodself. Gross that up and you don't need to be a BA CSD, Purser will do nicely thankyou! Gross that up with Pension/tax added and you have got one amazing payment for cabin services- 3 weeks training and off you go!
Just to toss a bit of fuel onto the fire, currently running on the BA BALPA forum is a thread of 'pilots who have been sent the wrong payslip to their home address'. One advises he got a LHR Purser' payslip, and most ungentlemanly spilled the beans- she got a shade under £3k takehome, and more than his goodself. Gross that up and you don't need to be a BA CSD, Purser will do nicely thankyou! Gross that up with Pension/tax added and you have got one amazing payment for cabin services- 3 weeks training and off you go!