Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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kenfoggo
Are you suggesting that some kind of unilateral work to rule might be effective in advancing your aims?
Is it possible the individual mentioned right at the beginning of this topic, may now be bearing the personal consequences of engineering just such 'difficulties' for the company?
You may need to look a little more carefully at the consequences, actions designed to affect the financial performance of BACX, may have.
As an example, how do you think the BA Board of Directors would view such unlawful action, when considering further investment?
Would they consider it poor management? Or would they consider it an obstructive workforce, who they would be better off without?
It's your call!
Are you suggesting that some kind of unilateral work to rule might be effective in advancing your aims?
Is it possible the individual mentioned right at the beginning of this topic, may now be bearing the personal consequences of engineering just such 'difficulties' for the company?
You may need to look a little more carefully at the consequences, actions designed to affect the financial performance of BACX, may have.
As an example, how do you think the BA Board of Directors would view such unlawful action, when considering further investment?
Would they consider it poor management? Or would they consider it an obstructive workforce, who they would be better off without?
It's your call!
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I can't believe what I've been reading. What a pathetic lot of moaning and whingeing people. I always thought flight deck crew were supposed to be reasonably intelligent - anyone would think that you were being forced to work for BACX; that you were being held hostage and forced to fly aircraft.
If it's so bad why on earth are you still with the company? You're perfectly free to leave if you don't like it - but I guess you'd have nothing to moan about then!
If it's so bad why on earth are you still with the company? You're perfectly free to leave if you don't like it - but I guess you'd have nothing to moan about then!
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As ever, ignorance is not only bliss, but reveals that it doesn't know what it is talking about!
1. jordan (an appropriate name for ignorance) - it is precisely because no-one is FORCED to work for BACX that they are in fact leaving. Our managers told us of overmanning, and the potential for redundancysome twelve months ago. This to an already demoralised and fed-up work force. Surprise surprise, people started leaving, and have continued to do so. The point is that we were NOT overmanned, and are now critically UNDERMANNED!!! Just ask any CX employee how many flights are cancelled on a daily basis. Cabin crew shortages as well as Flight Deck, and for the same reasons. BALPA told them their crewing figures were rubbish, but of course...they knew better. Thus, the situation was brought about entirely by inept management. I applaud my ex colleagues who have left for greener pastures, but it does mean longer days for the rest of us, and hence the discretion element, and the total absence of the morale thing.
2. As for tandem rotor, what bilge! It is quite quite impossible for any BA mainline employee from the comfort of his subsidised and extra-over-paid position, secure in the knowledge that whatever happens, he has a safe golden parachute to either comment, or even UNDERSTAND what it is like from the point of view of a BACX pilot. Rotor and his friends are in a state of denial-contradiction.
They refuse to recognise any aspiration to mainline subsumption, and at least some level of security, yet they contradict themselves by effectively SUPPORTING de la Fosse's methods when they know full well they would never tolerate these things back in mainline. Conclusion can only ever be they are happy to take the extra money and Ts and Cs over their CX Flight Deck colleagues, and now even have the sheer gall to criticise those 'colleagues' for daring to object to practices their parent Company and Union would down tools for! How there is any CRM at all these days astonishes me, but not as much as the slimy, self-serving, pompous, unctuous self-righteous CANT expressed by TR and his colleagues on these pages. I am ashamed to belong to the same hemisphere as these creatures!
I expect my mangement to try and use an ungreased baseball bat, to get it from one's so-called colleagues is more than I can express.
1. jordan (an appropriate name for ignorance) - it is precisely because no-one is FORCED to work for BACX that they are in fact leaving. Our managers told us of overmanning, and the potential for redundancysome twelve months ago. This to an already demoralised and fed-up work force. Surprise surprise, people started leaving, and have continued to do so. The point is that we were NOT overmanned, and are now critically UNDERMANNED!!! Just ask any CX employee how many flights are cancelled on a daily basis. Cabin crew shortages as well as Flight Deck, and for the same reasons. BALPA told them their crewing figures were rubbish, but of course...they knew better. Thus, the situation was brought about entirely by inept management. I applaud my ex colleagues who have left for greener pastures, but it does mean longer days for the rest of us, and hence the discretion element, and the total absence of the morale thing.
2. As for tandem rotor, what bilge! It is quite quite impossible for any BA mainline employee from the comfort of his subsidised and extra-over-paid position, secure in the knowledge that whatever happens, he has a safe golden parachute to either comment, or even UNDERSTAND what it is like from the point of view of a BACX pilot. Rotor and his friends are in a state of denial-contradiction.
They refuse to recognise any aspiration to mainline subsumption, and at least some level of security, yet they contradict themselves by effectively SUPPORTING de la Fosse's methods when they know full well they would never tolerate these things back in mainline. Conclusion can only ever be they are happy to take the extra money and Ts and Cs over their CX Flight Deck colleagues, and now even have the sheer gall to criticise those 'colleagues' for daring to object to practices their parent Company and Union would down tools for! How there is any CRM at all these days astonishes me, but not as much as the slimy, self-serving, pompous, unctuous self-righteous CANT expressed by TR and his colleagues on these pages. I am ashamed to belong to the same hemisphere as these creatures!
I expect my mangement to try and use an ungreased baseball bat, to get it from one's so-called colleagues is more than I can express.
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I always thought 'discretion' was originally created so that a crew, finding itself down route and with insufficient duty time to return home without breaching FTL's, could elect to continue as long as they all felt ok to do the last sector (to get HOME). In other words it's for the benefit of crew, and for the sole purpose of allowing them to legally do the LAST sector despite the FTL's. Or have i got it wrong (again!).
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Cornflake
Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
My pal in CX (secondee) that I mentioned earlier is anything but what you describe above, except of course he does have a ay out.
However he thinks the management in CX a disgrace and the treatment of ALL crew and the manning levels etc a disgrace.
Whilst many BA mainline employees are totally oblivious to life in CX (doesn't really concern a 45 year old 747 copilot living in Chamonix) many would be(are) sympathetic to being pushed around by inept management. We are well versed in it.
As for TR.....it would seem you get more sense out of Normal N.
TR, are you ex Navy by any chance?
If so it would explain a lot.
BTSM
Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
My pal in CX (secondee) that I mentioned earlier is anything but what you describe above, except of course he does have a ay out.
However he thinks the management in CX a disgrace and the treatment of ALL crew and the manning levels etc a disgrace.
Whilst many BA mainline employees are totally oblivious to life in CX (doesn't really concern a 45 year old 747 copilot living in Chamonix) many would be(are) sympathetic to being pushed around by inept management. We are well versed in it.
As for TR.....it would seem you get more sense out of Normal N.
TR, are you ex Navy by any chance?
If so it would explain a lot.
BTSM
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Cornflake you marr some absolutely spot on points by having too much of a go at Tandem.
He is clearly unrepresentative of Cx pilots being a highly privileged BA secondee doing the same job but on much better terms.
If his colleagues in big BA had one fraction the rubbish that Cx pilots have thrown at them by the ineptitude of Mr Df and his pals then they would be down tools as quick as blink.
As Cornflake pointed out, Mr DF was trying to get pilots to leave a few months ago. Now people are leaving in such numbers because they are so sick of him and the company that CX is recruiting fit to bust and everyone left is taking the strain.
How stupid is it, against this background to petulantly go and suspend a pilot for refusing to go into discretion............thereby reducing further the ability of CX to operate and massively boosting the profits of the likes of Titon whose subcharters are propping up the operation to the tune of hundreds of thousands a month.
This mangement style absolutely characterises the man and his regime which has existed for the past three plus years in CX and some of us hear with great amusement the woes of one recently departed and very sorely unmissed erstwhile colleague of his who returned to Mainline BA................
Anyone in BA on the Airbus fleet like to comment?...................Something to do with CRM I think
He is clearly unrepresentative of Cx pilots being a highly privileged BA secondee doing the same job but on much better terms.
If his colleagues in big BA had one fraction the rubbish that Cx pilots have thrown at them by the ineptitude of Mr Df and his pals then they would be down tools as quick as blink.
As Cornflake pointed out, Mr DF was trying to get pilots to leave a few months ago. Now people are leaving in such numbers because they are so sick of him and the company that CX is recruiting fit to bust and everyone left is taking the strain.
How stupid is it, against this background to petulantly go and suspend a pilot for refusing to go into discretion............thereby reducing further the ability of CX to operate and massively boosting the profits of the likes of Titon whose subcharters are propping up the operation to the tune of hundreds of thousands a month.
This mangement style absolutely characterises the man and his regime which has existed for the past three plus years in CX and some of us hear with great amusement the woes of one recently departed and very sorely unmissed erstwhile colleague of his who returned to Mainline BA................
Anyone in BA on the Airbus fleet like to comment?...................Something to do with CRM I think
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How stupid is it, against this background to petulantly go and suspend a pilot for refusing to go into discretion............thereby reducing further the ability of CX to operate and massively boosting the profits of the likes of Titon whose subcharters are propping up the operation to the tune of hundreds of thousands a month.
The guy sounds as if he deserves a special award.
A P45 perhaps?
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If anybody would care to start a new thread, regarding the reasons for the existence of mainline secondees in BACX,
then I would welcome the opportunity to respond.
However, that is not the point of this topic.
This thread is either about a captain declining to exercise discretion, OR about a captain deliberately punishing customers for their grievance with the company.
Depending on the precise detail.
That, presumably, is what any investigation will seek to determine.
And for those of you envious of mainline T & Cs, I have great news!
As of Monday, you can all apply to 'big' BA, (just like most of the secondees did!) and your applications will be considered ahead of ALL other similarly qualified applicants!
Good luck.
then I would welcome the opportunity to respond.
However, that is not the point of this topic.
This thread is either about a captain declining to exercise discretion, OR about a captain deliberately punishing customers for their grievance with the company.
Depending on the precise detail.
That, presumably, is what any investigation will seek to determine.
And for those of you envious of mainline T & Cs, I have great news!
As of Monday, you can all apply to 'big' BA, (just like most of the secondees did!) and your applications will be considered ahead of ALL other similarly qualified applicants!
Good luck.
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 8th Oct 2004 at 06:40.
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Tandem,
What part of my post do you interprete as inciting ,in your words, "unlawful action". ??
Not illegal to not answer the phone when not required to.
Not illegal to refuse to fly if you are unfit.
Not illegal to refuse to exercise commanders discretion.
I await your full and public apology for your slur on my character.
Rgds
Ken
What part of my post do you interprete as inciting ,in your words, "unlawful action". ??
Not illegal to not answer the phone when not required to.
Not illegal to refuse to fly if you are unfit.
Not illegal to refuse to exercise commanders discretion.
I await your full and public apology for your slur on my character.
Rgds
Ken
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If anybody would care to start a new thread, regarding the reasons for the existence of mainline secondees in BACX,....then I would welcome the opportunity to respond.
One minute you want to play this game, the next you say you "have lost interest in the thread" (because your privileged and unrepresentative status has been rumbled).
Now you invite someone else to start a thread so that you can respond to it so that you can defend your fat cat package and the big trough of Gravy that you along with a few other BA contract holders have your snouts in to the detriment of the majority of CX pilots who are being asked to accept a wage cut in the form of a pay rise less than half the value of relevant inflation.
Envious...................? Of course the rest of us are!
If I were you, I'd keep my head down, count my blessings,shut up and go back to planning my retirment in a tax haven in the sun.
You are right that there is thread creep here, so lets get it back on course. This is about the abuse of a female pilot who exercised her free will not to work into discretion and a manager who thinks that he has a monopoly on the free will of his pilots.
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Damn those pesky nigels!
Fancy handing over their aircraft, their route network, and their plush new terminals, and then expecting a few of their pilots to carry on flying there!
Have they no shame!!
And if that's not all, they expect to be paid the same as they were, before us cheap pilots came along!
And we signed up to it, just to get our sticky mits on the work!
Outrageous!
Fancy handing over their aircraft, their route network, and their plush new terminals, and then expecting a few of their pilots to carry on flying there!
Have they no shame!!
And if that's not all, they expect to be paid the same as they were, before us cheap pilots came along!
And we signed up to it, just to get our sticky mits on the work!
Outrageous!
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Sheikh What do you mean? That other manager is doing just fine well sort of. Apparently against the advice of his "co" he did decline to uplift an extra tonne of gas in August when inbound to LHR during those nasty Thunderstorms. Good to see a manager abiding by CIRRUS.
I am sure the passengers did not mind spending 3 hours at Stansted as a result of that decision. I believe the co was less than amused when our management friend suggested leaving Stansted for LHR with min fuel (CIRRUS) but then BA pilot managers are very company orientated.
Rgds BP
I am sure the passengers did not mind spending 3 hours at Stansted as a result of that decision. I believe the co was less than amused when our management friend suggested leaving Stansted for LHR with min fuel (CIRRUS) but then BA pilot managers are very company orientated.
Rgds BP
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As of Monday, you can all apply to 'big' BA, (just like most of the secondees did!) and your applications will be considered ahead of ALL other similarly qualified applicants!
not too many !!!
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Bigpants............I also hear a cheeky little rumour that the man had a wee problem with a line check and then tried to pull rank on his trainer cos he was a bit cross!!!!!!!!
Could never be true............
The point is that this is an insight into the mentality of BA managers passed and present at CX who second safety and the welfare of passengers and their staff to pursuit of their own goals (which presumably have nice bonuses pegged to them)
As to any secondee whose platinum tail feathers have been ruffled:-
Get used to these facts:-
The opinion which you hold of yourselves is not shared by most CX pilots.
Through your own good fortune you are being paid shed loads more money than CX guys to do exactly the same job and your package of benefits is out of all proportion to what your counterparts get. (some will be retiring on pensions of £8000 per annum.....................think about it)
What would you be prepared to do to support better conditions for your colleagues at CX????
Answer. Not a lot
What sort of a mangement is it that thinks this situation will not depress morale and cause huge resentment?
Answer. One that has its trotters in the trough also and has the same Ts and Cs. Mr DF and his mates could have lead from the front and torn up their BA contracts. Instead they kept them and now bawl instructions like some armchair generals from the safety of their bunkers.
Small wonder morale is through the floor and pilots are not interested in going an extra mile for a company that discriminates so apallingly against them.
Could never be true............
The point is that this is an insight into the mentality of BA managers passed and present at CX who second safety and the welfare of passengers and their staff to pursuit of their own goals (which presumably have nice bonuses pegged to them)
As to any secondee whose platinum tail feathers have been ruffled:-
Get used to these facts:-
The opinion which you hold of yourselves is not shared by most CX pilots.
Through your own good fortune you are being paid shed loads more money than CX guys to do exactly the same job and your package of benefits is out of all proportion to what your counterparts get. (some will be retiring on pensions of £8000 per annum.....................think about it)
What would you be prepared to do to support better conditions for your colleagues at CX????
Answer. Not a lot
What sort of a mangement is it that thinks this situation will not depress morale and cause huge resentment?
Answer. One that has its trotters in the trough also and has the same Ts and Cs. Mr DF and his mates could have lead from the front and torn up their BA contracts. Instead they kept them and now bawl instructions like some armchair generals from the safety of their bunkers.
Small wonder morale is through the floor and pilots are not interested in going an extra mile for a company that discriminates so apallingly against them.
4468 and Human Factor,
As you've already got away from the real topic, and as a fairly impartial observer to all this nonsense..
The 'pesky nigels' who operated BAR routes previously are all contracted to what is commonly referred to as Mainline BA. They flew in the regions as a secondment to BAR, but were not employed by BAR. Now here's where I have to admit my confusion. I am under the impression that BAR either no longer exists at all, or is now wholly integrated into the new BA CitiExpress. So surely they should have to return to their own employer and leave the ex-BAR flying to the staff of the merged Brymon/Manx/BRAL/BAR/BACX company?
Another thing mentioned earlier in the thread was that there was a different situation to the CityFlyer merger. CityFlyer 'brought loads of aircraft to the party' whereas BACX have brought nothing...
..again correct me if I am wrong but surely these companies brought 18 Emb145's, 5 BAe 146's, 13 BAe ATP's, 13 BAe J41's, and 12 or so Dash 8's (The actual figures may be different, but I think it gets the point across). The Mainline aircraft that were transferred to BACX (16 RJ's I believe) replaced 2 fleets that have been gifted to other airlines or grounded for no good reason. Had they not been transferred to BACX, they too would probably have been grounded.
NOW... back to the real topic that a captain has been disciplined for refusing to utilise discretion. What particular day/tour was at fault. Having seen some Emb145 rosters which have 4 or 5 sector days rostered within 5 minutes of FTL, why should she or any crewmember feel pressured into helping out an inadequately run organisation. Again, not the fault really of the rostering department, they have only a limited number of resources to work with to try to achieve the schedules.
Finally, the word DISCRETION should have some meaning otherwise, next time ATC ask you to "descend FL150 at pilot's discretion", it really means "descend NOW at expeditious rate to clear all my intermediate levels cos I can't forward plan!".
My tuppence worth.
As you've already got away from the real topic, and as a fairly impartial observer to all this nonsense..
The 'pesky nigels' who operated BAR routes previously are all contracted to what is commonly referred to as Mainline BA. They flew in the regions as a secondment to BAR, but were not employed by BAR. Now here's where I have to admit my confusion. I am under the impression that BAR either no longer exists at all, or is now wholly integrated into the new BA CitiExpress. So surely they should have to return to their own employer and leave the ex-BAR flying to the staff of the merged Brymon/Manx/BRAL/BAR/BACX company?
Another thing mentioned earlier in the thread was that there was a different situation to the CityFlyer merger. CityFlyer 'brought loads of aircraft to the party' whereas BACX have brought nothing...
..again correct me if I am wrong but surely these companies brought 18 Emb145's, 5 BAe 146's, 13 BAe ATP's, 13 BAe J41's, and 12 or so Dash 8's (The actual figures may be different, but I think it gets the point across). The Mainline aircraft that were transferred to BACX (16 RJ's I believe) replaced 2 fleets that have been gifted to other airlines or grounded for no good reason. Had they not been transferred to BACX, they too would probably have been grounded.
NOW... back to the real topic that a captain has been disciplined for refusing to utilise discretion. What particular day/tour was at fault. Having seen some Emb145 rosters which have 4 or 5 sector days rostered within 5 minutes of FTL, why should she or any crewmember feel pressured into helping out an inadequately run organisation. Again, not the fault really of the rostering department, they have only a limited number of resources to work with to try to achieve the schedules.
Finally, the word DISCRETION should have some meaning otherwise, next time ATC ask you to "descend FL150 at pilot's discretion", it really means "descend NOW at expeditious rate to clear all my intermediate levels cos I can't forward plan!".
My tuppence worth.
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Well said!
Points to ponder:
1. This is a thread about the mistreatment of a well liked and respected female Captain who as has been said, did no more than exercise her legal right NOT to exercise discretion.
2. Part of the problem leading (possibly) to arguments about this use of discretion as an industrial tool is the BA mainliners. Not as human beings, but as overpaid (in CX terms), insensitive and arrogant individuals. Hypocrisy, in stating what would be allowed in mainline but not in CX and vice versa is key to this whole question.
3. The real bit that sticks in my throat, and is often overlooked is the deliberate short sightedness and frank untruths of mainline. To say BACX brought nothing to the table or Company when compared to CityFlyer is specious and incorrect. (Quite apart from theoretically confirming the BA Board as a shower of incompetents were that indeed the case).
CityFlyer were bought mainly to prevent the Wooly Pully from buying them, and secondly because their efficient management (like BACX's) had demonstrated a most un - BA like ability to make a profit in the regions. (How many of the CityFlyer routes are still operated now, and how many profitably?????)
Be that as it may, BACX brough FAR FAR more to the table, like just over ONE THOUSAND HEATHROW SLOTS - as well as those a/c and then profitable routes and aircraft. Yep, count em, three prime time LHR slots every day of the year.
Every year.
For ever!!!!!
Not that we were allowed to keep them for long - I wonder what jumbo wonder jet currently uses them now? This, boys and girls, ladies, gentlement and BA pilots is called ASSET STRIPPING! Just like what you did to DAN AIR.
If any of you platinum wonders think we brought nothing to the table, then think again. Yes we may have been royally shafted, spoken to and treated like children by management and with disdain by you spoilt pack of pseuds, but remember the words of the man -
.... the loser now may be later to win ...... for the times, they are a changin'....... and they certainly are. By dumping on us, you bring your own end that much closer. However, in the words of another immortal, please call a spade a spade, and asset stripping asset stripping, or more appropriately
" Don't p##s down my back and tell me it's raining!!!!!"
BA 
Points to ponder:
1. This is a thread about the mistreatment of a well liked and respected female Captain who as has been said, did no more than exercise her legal right NOT to exercise discretion.
2. Part of the problem leading (possibly) to arguments about this use of discretion as an industrial tool is the BA mainliners. Not as human beings, but as overpaid (in CX terms), insensitive and arrogant individuals. Hypocrisy, in stating what would be allowed in mainline but not in CX and vice versa is key to this whole question.
3. The real bit that sticks in my throat, and is often overlooked is the deliberate short sightedness and frank untruths of mainline. To say BACX brought nothing to the table or Company when compared to CityFlyer is specious and incorrect. (Quite apart from theoretically confirming the BA Board as a shower of incompetents were that indeed the case).
CityFlyer were bought mainly to prevent the Wooly Pully from buying them, and secondly because their efficient management (like BACX's) had demonstrated a most un - BA like ability to make a profit in the regions. (How many of the CityFlyer routes are still operated now, and how many profitably?????)
Be that as it may, BACX brough FAR FAR more to the table, like just over ONE THOUSAND HEATHROW SLOTS - as well as those a/c and then profitable routes and aircraft. Yep, count em, three prime time LHR slots every day of the year.
Every year.
For ever!!!!!
Not that we were allowed to keep them for long - I wonder what jumbo wonder jet currently uses them now? This, boys and girls, ladies, gentlement and BA pilots is called ASSET STRIPPING! Just like what you did to DAN AIR.
If any of you platinum wonders think we brought nothing to the table, then think again. Yes we may have been royally shafted, spoken to and treated like children by management and with disdain by you spoilt pack of pseuds, but remember the words of the man -
.... the loser now may be later to win ...... for the times, they are a changin'....... and they certainly are. By dumping on us, you bring your own end that much closer. However, in the words of another immortal, please call a spade a spade, and asset stripping asset stripping, or more appropriately
" Don't p##s down my back and tell me it's raining!!!!!"
BA