Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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jordan/eal401
Well next time I'll be sure to ask the pax if I should continue the flight or not because they are obviously in a better position to know how I feel than I am.
I recently operated a 15hr 40 min two sector duty to get pax home, including just under ten hours flying. Thats on a two pilot wide bodied jet , continuous duty without a break.
Don't even begin to tell me about me,me,me .....you
's
The ability to unilaterally refuse discretion is there to protect the passengers!!!!!
If half you people are pro pilots it's no wonder the industry is in the pathetic state it is!
Well next time I'll be sure to ask the pax if I should continue the flight or not because they are obviously in a better position to know how I feel than I am.
I recently operated a 15hr 40 min two sector duty to get pax home, including just under ten hours flying. Thats on a two pilot wide bodied jet , continuous duty without a break.
Don't even begin to tell me about me,me,me .....you
'sThe ability to unilaterally refuse discretion is there to protect the passengers!!!!!
If half you people are pro pilots it's no wonder the industry is in the pathetic state it is!
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FlapsOne has it exactly right.
The important words in CAP371 are "may" and "at his discretion". I have never felt unable to continue into discretion (yet), but members of my crew have, and I always choose not to exercise my discretion in those cases.
When faced with the inevitable phone call/tea and biscuits, I just say that I "chose not to exercise my discretion, having taken into account the circumstances of my crew", and decline to discuss those circumstances.
They may rant and threaten, but in the end there is nothing they can do.
The important words in CAP371 are "may" and "at his discretion". I have never felt unable to continue into discretion (yet), but members of my crew have, and I always choose not to exercise my discretion in those cases.
When faced with the inevitable phone call/tea and biscuits, I just say that I "chose not to exercise my discretion, having taken into account the circumstances of my crew", and decline to discuss those circumstances.
They may rant and threaten, but in the end there is nothing they can do.
V1, ROTATE
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Jordan, you've obviously posted on the wrong topic, if you read carefully you'd see that all we are talking about is our pax. How capable the crew of the a/c feel they are to safely continue the flight/s. You should remember that just because there may be only one sector left that doesn't mean the crew are lazy, making a point etc. Once that gear comes up over the runway NOBODY knows how long it'll be before you land again. The crew need to be prepared for the worst and most of all need to be able to cope with it, there's only one person who can tell if they are, themselves. I would hope everyone agrees with that?
Somebody close to me always used to say, "I rather be down here wishing i was up there, that up there wishing i was down here". Are you telling me that most passengers would be ok to be at 40,000' with a crew that were not on the ball, happy to be up there?! For the love of the industry, surely not!
Somebody close to me always used to say, "I rather be down here wishing i was up there, that up there wishing i was down here". Are you telling me that most passengers would be ok to be at 40,000' with a crew that were not on the ball, happy to be up there?! For the love of the industry, surely not!
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Captain Fillosan (rtd)
I am an example of a Captain who has never once refused to go into discretion. Who feels an overwhelming responsibility to get my passengers to where they should be and not have their lives disrupted. Who always is prepared to "go the extra mile".
Our cabin crew, in general, do not share this ethos. They may have done in your day but the world has changed. No more salutes on board any more. Sorry Old Bean.
As for one swear word with ***. Stop sqealing like a bunch of up-tight Amish.
BOAC. People are allowed to disagree with you. Times have moved on from the 707
NN
I am an example of a Captain who has never once refused to go into discretion. Who feels an overwhelming responsibility to get my passengers to where they should be and not have their lives disrupted. Who always is prepared to "go the extra mile".
Our cabin crew, in general, do not share this ethos. They may have done in your day but the world has changed. No more salutes on board any more. Sorry Old Bean.
As for one swear word with ***. Stop sqealing like a bunch of up-tight Amish.
BOAC. People are allowed to disagree with you. Times have moved on from the 707
NN
Last edited by normal_nigel; 29th Sep 2004 at 13:25.
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In my book, and any English-speaking person's book, the word 'may' is understood to mean that the subject of the verb with which it is used (ie I may exercise..., she may say yes.., he may say no...etc) has an option to do or not to do. End of story.
If you always exercise discretion to do something then I am pleased for you; I and others working with me do not lead perfect lives and have other influences that will affect us on a day-to-day, or hour-to-hour basis.
Unfortunately people who swear usually lack vocabulary and if they resort to typing in swear words on a forum they should be encouraged to use another forum.
If you always exercise discretion to do something then I am pleased for you; I and others working with me do not lead perfect lives and have other influences that will affect us on a day-to-day, or hour-to-hour basis.
Unfortunately people who swear usually lack vocabulary and if they resort to typing in swear words on a forum they should be encouraged to use another forum.
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Stan Wooley, does the phrase "tongue in cheek" have any meaning to you?? Smiley not enough of a clue, I apologise.
But as for the implication, may I suggest reading the Cabin Crew forum once in a while, just as an example.
Oh and call me a tad cynical but:
Is this not what you are paid to do? Just curious you understand, as I assume all was legal regarding crew duty time and you were operating a scheduled service!
But as for the implication, may I suggest reading the Cabin Crew forum once in a while, just as an example.
Oh and call me a tad cynical but:
I recently operated a 15hr 40 min two sector duty to get pax home, including just under ten hours flying. Thats on a two pilot wide bodied jet , continuous duty without a break.
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I am embarrassed to even admit being party to the same industry as you lot of whinging, self-righteous adolescents. None of you seem to have a clue of what it means to be a professional pilot. I'm even more embarrassed to think that true professionals from other industries are reading this load of childish nonsense posted here by immature individuals masquerading as airline pilots.
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from one of the engineering support team, I for one support the crews who refuse to be stretched any further. Has the company annonced the ballot result I thought the 2.5% was a joke when big BA were offered an extra £1000 as a bribe to come to work
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Surely the point here is not whether you will or will not but the fact that crewing or some management pilot is trying to make your mind up for you, before the last sector has even been encountered.
At a certain loco out of EMA and MAN you are quite literally told before you start on the the first of four sectors that YOU WILL extend duty into discretion. When you politely decline you are then phoned by the most senior of pilots, ranted at in no uncertain manner and told what you "will do". At no time are you expected to have an opinion.
What is clearly obvious is that Pilots dicretion is being subsituted
for extending FDP at crewing's dicretion.
I always thought that you could not plan to go into discretion at the beginning of your FDP, end of story..or not as the case may be!
At a certain loco out of EMA and MAN you are quite literally told before you start on the the first of four sectors that YOU WILL extend duty into discretion. When you politely decline you are then phoned by the most senior of pilots, ranted at in no uncertain manner and told what you "will do". At no time are you expected to have an opinion.
What is clearly obvious is that Pilots dicretion is being subsituted
for extending FDP at crewing's dicretion.
I always thought that you could not plan to go into discretion at the beginning of your FDP, end of story..or not as the case may be!
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Sorry FC I completely fail to see your argument. If you are correct on the facts then that makes the behaviour of the Company the worse. If you are right, then what was BA CX doing dispatching an aircraft with a crew who were likely to run out of hours? Reckless I suggest (more likely desperate because they had no standby cover.)
You seem to be suggesting that discretion is OK so long as it is not down the line and results in a crew and Pax along with AC getting stranded. Again you have lost me.
As to dragging the Company through the mud. I made this post deliberately on a public forum because it concerns an apparent blatant infringment of the right of a Commander to determine his own fitness to continue a flight beyond the duty limits set by the CAA as custodians of theinterests of the fare paying public.
I believe that sort of action is against the public interest and significantly increases the odds of a fatigue related disaster. No management bonus can justify that. One is therefor entitled to question the motivation and competence of the individual who authorised the suspension presumably as an example "pour encourager les autres" to push themselves and their crew beyond safe limits.
You seem to be suggesting that discretion is OK so long as it is not down the line and results in a crew and Pax along with AC getting stranded. Again you have lost me.
As to dragging the Company through the mud. I made this post deliberately on a public forum because it concerns an apparent blatant infringment of the right of a Commander to determine his own fitness to continue a flight beyond the duty limits set by the CAA as custodians of theinterests of the fare paying public.
I believe that sort of action is against the public interest and significantly increases the odds of a fatigue related disaster. No management bonus can justify that. One is therefor entitled to question the motivation and competence of the individual who authorised the suspension presumably as an example "pour encourager les autres" to push themselves and their crew beyond safe limits.
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I am an example of a Captain who has never once refused to go into discretion. Who feels an overwhelming responsibility to get my passengers... blah blah blah
If your priority is not the welfare of your passengers AND crew then I for one don't believe you are safe to operate. All I can say is that I'm glad you aren't on longhaul aircraft. I'd hate to see you trying to cope with a 15 crew walkoff when you try and push a crew to go on the 4th sector of a back to back or the last sector of a SIN/BKK-MEL/SYD in a delay situation.
Perhaps you ought to come down off the pedestal that you have put yourself on and learn a bit of CRM (and common sense). I'm glad that the vast majority of your colleagues on the flight deck are aware that they aren't the only people who are working on board the aircraft and take that into account. Perhaps BA ought to start screening for megalomania in it's flight crew.
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Fortunately ABird747s nightmare scenario would never occur as BA cabin crew would walk off the aircraft leaving passengers stranded the moment they went beyond their industrial limits, which usually fall well short of CAP371. The issue of discretion with them is a total non-issue. It just ain't happening!
Two add my 2ps worth, IMHO discretion should only ever be used for unforeseeable events. If the company has done their best, something beyond their control has messed things up and you feel it is safe for yourself and the rest of the crew to extend your duty period then discretion is a possibility. It should not be used simply to paper over the cracks in the companys poor planning. If it is patently obvious from the outset that things are not going to work (unrealistic planned block times, unrealistic turnaround times) then it's not my job to start aligning the holes in the swiss cheese for them by going into discretion. I have previously been asked if I would be prepared to go into discretion that duty on sector 1 of a 5 sector day. My answer was that they find a new pilot for sector 5 or sectors 3 and 4.
Two add my 2ps worth, IMHO discretion should only ever be used for unforeseeable events. If the company has done their best, something beyond their control has messed things up and you feel it is safe for yourself and the rest of the crew to extend your duty period then discretion is a possibility. It should not be used simply to paper over the cracks in the companys poor planning. If it is patently obvious from the outset that things are not going to work (unrealistic planned block times, unrealistic turnaround times) then it's not my job to start aligning the holes in the swiss cheese for them by going into discretion. I have previously been asked if I would be prepared to go into discretion that duty on sector 1 of a 5 sector day. My answer was that they find a new pilot for sector 5 or sectors 3 and 4.
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An awful lot of people seem to be getting very hot under the collar here about a situation about which they evidently know very little. BACX are a large and well connected operation; they are hardly likely to suspend a captain for simply declining to work into discretion. These situations are rarely as simple as they seem, or as they are reported.
Consider a hypothetical situation where a series of flights are running late, for whatever reason. Captain X makes it quite clear before the final couple of sectors that (s)he will NOT work into discretion should it become necessary, even though it is made clear to him/her that that will result in the cancellation of the flight and the resultant inconvenience to a large number of passengers.
Consider then the situation where the final sector is running considerably late, but will still get said captain home without going into discretion. When the flight plan is then delayed to reflect a realistic departure time, it results in a further considerable slot delay, say up to an hour, which will definitely put the crew into discretion time. At that point the captain opts to exercise his/her discretion and says ‘No go.’ Soon after the crew depart the aircraft, for whatever reason, the slot comes forward to, effectively, the realistic delayed departure time, which would still allow said crew to arrive back at base without going into discretion. By now it is too late of course, the crew have already gone and the flight has been cancelled.
Anyone who flies in Europe, especially at jet captain level, should have some understanding of the CFMU slot system. They should therefore be aware that slots can and do come forward, as well as get later. There are even staff whose job it is to try and improve slot times by various means. To take the decision to effectively abandon the flight well in advance due to a poor slot could be seen to be irresponsible and unprofessional. Take a moment to consider the additional costs in money and loss of reputation for the carrier of that precipitate decision.
Only hypothetical of course……………..and No, I am not BACX management!
Consider a hypothetical situation where a series of flights are running late, for whatever reason. Captain X makes it quite clear before the final couple of sectors that (s)he will NOT work into discretion should it become necessary, even though it is made clear to him/her that that will result in the cancellation of the flight and the resultant inconvenience to a large number of passengers.
Consider then the situation where the final sector is running considerably late, but will still get said captain home without going into discretion. When the flight plan is then delayed to reflect a realistic departure time, it results in a further considerable slot delay, say up to an hour, which will definitely put the crew into discretion time. At that point the captain opts to exercise his/her discretion and says ‘No go.’ Soon after the crew depart the aircraft, for whatever reason, the slot comes forward to, effectively, the realistic delayed departure time, which would still allow said crew to arrive back at base without going into discretion. By now it is too late of course, the crew have already gone and the flight has been cancelled.
Anyone who flies in Europe, especially at jet captain level, should have some understanding of the CFMU slot system. They should therefore be aware that slots can and do come forward, as well as get later. There are even staff whose job it is to try and improve slot times by various means. To take the decision to effectively abandon the flight well in advance due to a poor slot could be seen to be irresponsible and unprofessional. Take a moment to consider the additional costs in money and loss of reputation for the carrier of that precipitate decision.
Only hypothetical of course……………..and No, I am not BACX management!
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I think we're all well aware of the vagaries of slot times GWYN. I think most crews would prefer to operate into discretion if possible to get the aircraft home on the last sector. We all know slot times can go forward as well as back. What people are less willing to do is depart main base already knowing they will have to use an amount of discretion for the return leg, then being subject to even more delay on the return leg which would require to use more discretion than you had previously planned on and considered reasonable given the preceeding events. The decision on whether to operate into discretion is not one of commercial expedience or customer convenience, it is one of safety. Nobody will thank you when your discretionary flight goes off the end of the runway because you wanted to save the company some money by not cancelling. I recently had a fairly gruelling 12hr, 3 sector duty in atrocious weather during which we both decided we were unwilling to use discretion for the last sector, even though it would be a ballache not just for the company but us personally. 90 minutes later, approaching midnight, when we found ourselves 90 miles south of track, still heading south, bouncing around the tops of CBs at FL380 and working out whether we could make destination or would have to divert into an unfamiliar airfield at night we were glad not to have an extra 2 hours of tiredness to contend with.
Just a numbered other
H solo
Well said. A certain loco's winter schedule includes a six sector day rostered to within 5 minutes of max FDP and with totally silly flight and turn round times. That is NOT what it's for
If the company has done their best, something beyond their control has messed things up and you feel it is safe for yourself and the rest of the crew to extend your duty period then discretion is a possibility. It should not be used simply to paper over the cracks in the companys poor planning. If it is patently obvious from the outset that things are not going to work (unrealistic planned block times, unrealistic turnaround times) then it's not my job to start aligning the holes in the swiss cheese for them by going into discretion.
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Any crew member should set off on any day expecting to use
discretion - thats what it is for. Was it this Guys first day, if so there would be a higher expectancy that it could be used.
Was it 5 minutes or 2 hours - was he/she on a 55 hour week
Was the original schedule unrealistic from the planning stage.
I dont see any issue with a Pilot Manager being able to speak to his Captain to discuss the reasons for declining to use discretion,
even if its a straight no.
The only sad fact is that in the old days flights rostered to max duty where few and far between,TLV and BJL maybe nowdays its the norm to go multisector and up to the limit. Some Loco's and CX likely to be on fixed weeks still rather than rolling accumulators to make the situ worse.
discretion - thats what it is for. Was it this Guys first day, if so there would be a higher expectancy that it could be used.
Was it 5 minutes or 2 hours - was he/she on a 55 hour week
Was the original schedule unrealistic from the planning stage.
I dont see any issue with a Pilot Manager being able to speak to his Captain to discuss the reasons for declining to use discretion,
even if its a straight no.
The only sad fact is that in the old days flights rostered to max duty where few and far between,TLV and BJL maybe nowdays its the norm to go multisector and up to the limit. Some Loco's and CX likely to be on fixed weeks still rather than rolling accumulators to make the situ worse.