Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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Yes Kirkwall. I thought Tandem's denial was a bit hollow! If you are not a BA pilot seconded to CX then I am a monkey's uncle Tandem. Your posting history gives it away!!
As a seconded BA pilot you have a package of sweeteners for working at CX way over and above what your CX chums get for doing EXACTLY the same job. In fact, if you add up your "special payment" of £12000, extra scheduling payments and all the other extra bits and pieces you get...............consider this before making another posting about how rosy and professional life is in CX.
You get in allowances more than the basic pay of some CX pilots. Or, put another way you are grossing at least FOUR TIMES what some of your CX colleagues get.
That is your good fortune, but you do not live in the real CX world. Neither of course does our GMFO or CEO both of whom have tenaciously hung on to their BA contracts and lead from the rear.
Small wonder that morale is through the floor and few if any genuine CX pilots feel that anyone in mangement is rooting for them.
Beating pilots up over not exercising their free will to go into discretion just depresses and dejects a community already punched to a standstill by three years plus of inspired BA rule.
As a seconded BA pilot you have a package of sweeteners for working at CX way over and above what your CX chums get for doing EXACTLY the same job. In fact, if you add up your "special payment" of £12000, extra scheduling payments and all the other extra bits and pieces you get...............consider this before making another posting about how rosy and professional life is in CX.
You get in allowances more than the basic pay of some CX pilots. Or, put another way you are grossing at least FOUR TIMES what some of your CX colleagues get.
That is your good fortune, but you do not live in the real CX world. Neither of course does our GMFO or CEO both of whom have tenaciously hung on to their BA contracts and lead from the rear.
Small wonder that morale is through the floor and few if any genuine CX pilots feel that anyone in mangement is rooting for them.
Beating pilots up over not exercising their free will to go into discretion just depresses and dejects a community already punched to a standstill by three years plus of inspired BA rule.
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Precisely!!!!
I'm not sure why my last posts on this subject were removed - I was endeavouring to show that the likes of Tandem ARE in fact partly responsible via Big BALPA's shameful take on the situation via scope and refusal to encourage BA to offer mainline Ts and Cs to BACX like they did to CityFlyer. No excuses will do, compare their grasping and selfish behaviour to that of Britannia who are at least trying to get the Thomson operatio Ts and Cs up to the 'mainline Brit level. Why? Maybe because they see it better to haul everyone up than to selfishly do people down. BA management I can understand, but as I said, and was deleted before, it's the actions of the BA mainline pilots I can't understand.
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As I'm sure has been pointed out before, CityFlyer merged with BA, bringing all their routes and about 24 aircrafts worth of new opportunities at one of our main bases. They completely ceased to be a seperate company. Thats why they went on the seniority list. BACX have brought NOTHING to the party with mainline but the loss of 16 aircraft, two bases, lots of routes and lots of career opportunity for mainline pilots. They were, and remain to all intents and purposes, a separate company. Thats why you don't get automatic inclusion in the seniority list. Whilst were on the subject of selfishly doing people down I seem to remember mucg crowing on these forums from CX pilots, yourself included, about how you were so much better than mainline pilots because you'd do the same job for less money. Hardly helping your case there were you.
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You know what? It is astonishing reading this and other similar threads by you so called 'professionals' (this does not apply to everyone, you will know yourself if it does).
Whinge, moan, complain.......if you don't like your job then resign and work on the checkout in Tescos.
I fly Single Pilot IFR in the worst of the weather (not above it) at all hours of the night and day. Rain, Wind, Icing and occasionally turbulance so bad the instruments are a blur with just me to deal with it. Often urgent Ambulance/Donor flights where you have to go if it at all possible to get there, (safety first obviously) working to max FTL/FDP. It so happens that I enjoy it, if I didn't I would do something else.
We work hard to keep the company going, what is the point of fighting against it..... you end up out of a job.
Those of you who have done this on your way up the ladder understand and my point is not aimed at you.
However, It is not hard work sitting at FL350 drinking coffee, ranting on about 'the company'; whichever one was gracious enough to give you a job over and above the thousands of other pilots that are desperate to do it.
All industries have management that is crap in the opinion of the workforce....(and they may be) but they have a responsibility too..... to keep you in a job....
As I said this does not apply to everyone....
Whinge, moan, complain.......if you don't like your job then resign and work on the checkout in Tescos.
I fly Single Pilot IFR in the worst of the weather (not above it) at all hours of the night and day. Rain, Wind, Icing and occasionally turbulance so bad the instruments are a blur with just me to deal with it. Often urgent Ambulance/Donor flights where you have to go if it at all possible to get there, (safety first obviously) working to max FTL/FDP. It so happens that I enjoy it, if I didn't I would do something else.
We work hard to keep the company going, what is the point of fighting against it..... you end up out of a job.
Those of you who have done this on your way up the ladder understand and my point is not aimed at you.
However, It is not hard work sitting at FL350 drinking coffee, ranting on about 'the company'; whichever one was gracious enough to give you a job over and above the thousands of other pilots that are desperate to do it.
All industries have management that is crap in the opinion of the workforce....(and they may be) but they have a responsibility too..... to keep you in a job....
As I said this does not apply to everyone....
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Some good points there pilotbear, many would agree. However, this is a quite specific thread - or it was, ha ha .
Let's remember the point, about the Captain and discretion. However, let's also consider the very relevant comments from our mainline friends.
Someone said something to the effect that 'they' (management)wouldn't dare do it (suspension) to a mainline pilot if he exercised discretion in a similar fashion. There were subsequent other posts rearing their heads about the whole BA/BACX relationship.
For heaven's sake, lets move on. Maybe things have been said and done on both sides which were less than clever; but surely, surely mainline pilots have nothing to lose by ACTIVELY SUPPORTING the move by BACX onto mainline Ts and Cs, or at the very least, the bottom of the seniority list with the same rights that apparently the mainliners have.
How could it possibly hurt? If BACX guys are incompetent - they'll be chopped on their first go at a conversion. If not, then where is the problem? Are mainline pilots, so quick to point out their strengths in dealing with management, likely to be disadvantaged - if so, how?
I'm very much afraid it is the arrogant elitism, similar to that displayed with GSS that is part of the problem. When, and only when, BA pilots are able to behave like most of the rest of the UK pilot workforce, and be SUPPORTIVE, and INCLUSIVE, will they be able to be taken as anything other than selfish, protectionist and probably terminally shortsighted. By their actions they allow the TDLFs of this world to thrive and grow in number. They do themselves no favours.
One expects a management to take a polarised position when considering its workforce, their aims and ambitions are rarely aligned. However, it is unusual to put it mildly, to see one section of the said workforce being deliberately and selfishly punitive to the aspirations of another section, identical in all but name.
I fly with BA secondees, sad to say there is a huge difference between the BA guys who came from CityFlyer and the mainliners.
You can always tell a genuine mainliner - but you can't tell him much!
Let's remember the point, about the Captain and discretion. However, let's also consider the very relevant comments from our mainline friends.
Someone said something to the effect that 'they' (management)wouldn't dare do it (suspension) to a mainline pilot if he exercised discretion in a similar fashion. There were subsequent other posts rearing their heads about the whole BA/BACX relationship.
For heaven's sake, lets move on. Maybe things have been said and done on both sides which were less than clever; but surely, surely mainline pilots have nothing to lose by ACTIVELY SUPPORTING the move by BACX onto mainline Ts and Cs, or at the very least, the bottom of the seniority list with the same rights that apparently the mainliners have.
How could it possibly hurt? If BACX guys are incompetent - they'll be chopped on their first go at a conversion. If not, then where is the problem? Are mainline pilots, so quick to point out their strengths in dealing with management, likely to be disadvantaged - if so, how?
I'm very much afraid it is the arrogant elitism, similar to that displayed with GSS that is part of the problem. When, and only when, BA pilots are able to behave like most of the rest of the UK pilot workforce, and be SUPPORTIVE, and INCLUSIVE, will they be able to be taken as anything other than selfish, protectionist and probably terminally shortsighted. By their actions they allow the TDLFs of this world to thrive and grow in number. They do themselves no favours.
One expects a management to take a polarised position when considering its workforce, their aims and ambitions are rarely aligned. However, it is unusual to put it mildly, to see one section of the said workforce being deliberately and selfishly punitive to the aspirations of another section, identical in all but name.
I fly with BA secondees, sad to say there is a huge difference between the BA guys who came from CityFlyer and the mainliners.
You can always tell a genuine mainliner - but you can't tell him much!
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Interesting points there Yog and in a way you've partly answered your own question. I don't think BA mainline pilots do have anything to lose by actively supporting BACX joining the seniority list. BUT, management on both sides don't want it because it means more rights for you, more cost for them. So where do we go from there? Too many of your colleagues grossly over-estimate the influence BACC has within BA. They believe that BACC will wave a magic wand and you'll be on the list. The truth is that management resist almost any initiative from BACC, even zero cost ones, so the only way to force BACX pilots onto the list would be industrial action. I don't actually think that would be legal as you're a seperate company, but even if it was there are a lot of things more important to BA pilots than that which they're not prepared to strike over.
The next factor is that when the last negotiation take place your company council was actively seeking to give our guys the boot out of the regions. Even you must admit that you can't negotiate for a position on a seniority list when you're simultaneously trying to negotiate the removal of someone from a regional position who would be higher on that list.
A final and rather more personal factor is that we're all getting rather sick and tired of the mud-slinging from you and your colleagues. We've had our fill of the lazy, underworked, overpaid Nigel stereotype. We're also particularly fed up of the allegations of arrogance and elitism, selfishness and protectionism which you yourself just levelled. Most BA pilots are at worst ambivalent about BACX, it's no skin off my nose whether you join the list or not. But I'm not going to bang the drum for you when all we get is crap in return.
The next factor is that when the last negotiation take place your company council was actively seeking to give our guys the boot out of the regions. Even you must admit that you can't negotiate for a position on a seniority list when you're simultaneously trying to negotiate the removal of someone from a regional position who would be higher on that list.
A final and rather more personal factor is that we're all getting rather sick and tired of the mud-slinging from you and your colleagues. We've had our fill of the lazy, underworked, overpaid Nigel stereotype. We're also particularly fed up of the allegations of arrogance and elitism, selfishness and protectionism which you yourself just levelled. Most BA pilots are at worst ambivalent about BACX, it's no skin off my nose whether you join the list or not. But I'm not going to bang the drum for you when all we get is crap in return.
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Not much change there then, mainliners demonstrably not interested in anything resembling outreach. Turkeys and Xmas spring to mind, because inevitably, as seen with Cathay, once management starts effectively eroding Ts and Cs and gets away with it, they will do more. Roll on the 'C' scale.
You chaps seem determined to only be interested in protecting your own six - makes sense for us to do the same I suppose, to paraphrase you, if you won't bang the drum, then expect a lot more of the other! I note with interest mainline couldn't even be bothered to protect future MAINLINE joiners ref the pension scheme - nope, business as usual, a sort of "as long as it doesn't affect US" mentality.
I doubt there will be any action on the coming schism. I believe it inevitable that a much much greater regionalisation will take place, and while Fortress LHR will survive initially, even that will change in the long term. Maybe BEA will be effectively born again, but probably subsidised by Waterside because it couldn't survive against the low costs out there. Hence, whether you guys realise it or not, BACX and BA may be separate (check your spellcheck, Carnage old sport) Companies, but they are bound together with too many chains. Names may change, but the bottom line has become such that should one entity stumble, it will drag the other to its knees, and bloody both in the process.
I suppose as long as you guys are enjoying your crystallised pensions you won't care....(what was the size of that deficit again......)
A great pity, so needless. Of course, since BACC allegedly has so little influence, it will be unable to prevent it....319s to BACX at MAN do I hear??? Presumably the long haul barons won't be interested in leaving their French Ivory Towers to vote against that either? And then of course, how much longer has Rodders got before he inevitably retires? I wonder what the new broom will want to do to make his mark? Start by sorting out the Flight Deck....or the Cabin. I know which one (by your own admission) is the easier duck to shoot.
Team Spirit
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Now, back to the thread, how is our lady doing with her discretion/suspension situation? Our guys may not be BACC, but they are very very effective, they have made TDLF and PH look very silly on a number of occasions (though it has to be said, t'aint that difficult!)
Anyway, how is she, and where is the situation up to? Good luck sweetums!
You chaps seem determined to only be interested in protecting your own six - makes sense for us to do the same I suppose, to paraphrase you, if you won't bang the drum, then expect a lot more of the other! I note with interest mainline couldn't even be bothered to protect future MAINLINE joiners ref the pension scheme - nope, business as usual, a sort of "as long as it doesn't affect US" mentality.
I doubt there will be any action on the coming schism. I believe it inevitable that a much much greater regionalisation will take place, and while Fortress LHR will survive initially, even that will change in the long term. Maybe BEA will be effectively born again, but probably subsidised by Waterside because it couldn't survive against the low costs out there. Hence, whether you guys realise it or not, BACX and BA may be separate (check your spellcheck, Carnage old sport) Companies, but they are bound together with too many chains. Names may change, but the bottom line has become such that should one entity stumble, it will drag the other to its knees, and bloody both in the process.
I suppose as long as you guys are enjoying your crystallised pensions you won't care....(what was the size of that deficit again......)
A great pity, so needless. Of course, since BACC allegedly has so little influence, it will be unable to prevent it....319s to BACX at MAN do I hear??? Presumably the long haul barons won't be interested in leaving their French Ivory Towers to vote against that either? And then of course, how much longer has Rodders got before he inevitably retires? I wonder what the new broom will want to do to make his mark? Start by sorting out the Flight Deck....or the Cabin. I know which one (by your own admission) is the easier duck to shoot.
Team Spirit
CRM Company Loyalty Now, back to the thread, how is our lady doing with her discretion/suspension situation? Our guys may not be BACC, but they are very very effective, they have made TDLF and PH look very silly on a number of occasions (though it has to be said, t'aint that difficult!)
Anyway, how is she, and where is the situation up to? Good luck sweetums!
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BA Citiexpress
Otherwise the remnants of British Regional, Manx (part), Brymon etc etc.. well I am suprised that anyone is suprised at this.
I left British Regional 7 years ago before I suffered a nervous breakdown. The management was to say the least "appalling" the only sane person was Catpain Nigel Moll, the Chief Pilot, at least tried his best to do things correctly and by the regulations. As for the rest, the Director of Ops and all his henchmen, they ruled by fear and the old game of Divide and Rule!!
I went to USA for a few years to regain my sanity, worked for several small companies who actually appreciated what I was doing for them and NEVER forced the issue when faced with this kind of issue. Discretion is the Commanders Discretion !! but the rub is as always, if you cross the Powers that Be - beware because they WILL GET YOU BACK one way or another. Remember a large number of our immediate bosses are not in the job because they are good managers or llikeable people, many of them have trodden on others to get where they are and they intend to stay there.
My advice to a young person clever enough to be a pilot, DON'T - if you are clever enough to be a pilot then become a Lawyer or a IT Specialist, earn big bucks and have your own Citation or Lear but whatever you do, steer clear of aviation - it SUX!! Not the flying - that is just HEAVEN but all the baggage that goes with it!!
I left British Regional 7 years ago before I suffered a nervous breakdown. The management was to say the least "appalling" the only sane person was Catpain Nigel Moll, the Chief Pilot, at least tried his best to do things correctly and by the regulations. As for the rest, the Director of Ops and all his henchmen, they ruled by fear and the old game of Divide and Rule!!
I went to USA for a few years to regain my sanity, worked for several small companies who actually appreciated what I was doing for them and NEVER forced the issue when faced with this kind of issue. Discretion is the Commanders Discretion !! but the rub is as always, if you cross the Powers that Be - beware because they WILL GET YOU BACK one way or another. Remember a large number of our immediate bosses are not in the job because they are good managers or llikeable people, many of them have trodden on others to get where they are and they intend to stay there.
My advice to a young person clever enough to be a pilot, DON'T - if you are clever enough to be a pilot then become a Lawyer or a IT Specialist, earn big bucks and have your own Citation or Lear but whatever you do, steer clear of aviation - it SUX!! Not the flying - that is just HEAVEN but all the baggage that goes with it!!
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It DOES seem a bit short sighted that mainline won't assist. Easily bruised egos perhaps.
Nothing to lose, lots of goodwill to gain, potential for opening up the regions for those mainline guys who want to go there in greater numbers, opening up better career opportunities for BACX guys who are young enough to benefit from a chance at heavier metal, it even saves money for BA as a whole because the training of ab-initios will be on smaller metal. It goes without saying that a guy trained and flown on smaller stuff in the Regions / Europe SH is a more rounded product than a cadet going straight to the 'bus or bigger.
BA management don't want it of course because they want to keep open the flexibility option should they continue to lose money with BACX and do a Deutsche BA with it all; and also to be able to pick off the mainline perks one at a time rather than have to argue against giving those perks to a wider workforce. Mind you, BA staff travel is not worth a dingo's scut these days if you have a family and need to travel at any normal date/time combination.
Anyway, good luck to all, especially to the Discreet Captain whoever she is!
Nothing to lose, lots of goodwill to gain, potential for opening up the regions for those mainline guys who want to go there in greater numbers, opening up better career opportunities for BACX guys who are young enough to benefit from a chance at heavier metal, it even saves money for BA as a whole because the training of ab-initios will be on smaller metal. It goes without saying that a guy trained and flown on smaller stuff in the Regions / Europe SH is a more rounded product than a cadet going straight to the 'bus or bigger.
BA management don't want it of course because they want to keep open the flexibility option should they continue to lose money with BACX and do a Deutsche BA with it all; and also to be able to pick off the mainline perks one at a time rather than have to argue against giving those perks to a wider workforce. Mind you, BA staff travel is not worth a dingo's scut these days if you have a family and need to travel at any normal date/time combination.
Anyway, good luck to all, especially to the Discreet Captain whoever she is!
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Well that's at least two of you boys complaining about censorship. Don't believe in it myself (if you've seen the videos of me you'll know what I mean 
) but think the mean censor should say what he is up to.After all I know from (very) personal experience what some of these nasty CX managers are getting up to (on the 11th floor
). Discretion - I wasn't shown any 
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Pilotbear
Well ! There you have it guys! Just so long as we have people like Pilotbear who are willing to prostitute themselves and still expect to be treated like a professional this kind of thing will continue. Where ever did you get the idea that airlines were doing pilots a favour by "giving" them a job? Why don't you return your pay each month on payday Pilotbear, you quite obviously love to fly so much you would do it for nothing! It is guys like you that make it so damned difficult to get management to treat pilots like the professionals they deserve to be treated as. My my! am I glad I am towards the last years of my flying career and not the early years! I always said pilots are their own worst enemy and now I know I am right!
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Sure thing Gengis.
I would say that the top is about to blow at CX.
You have gross pay apartheid.........Two people doing exactly the same job, flying the same AC etc..........yet one takes a fraction of what the other does.
You have three plus years of disruption, fleet and base changes with a management who have only ever been involved with loss making companies.
There is no apparent respect or trust that these managers have the slightest clue what they are doing.
Now with the workforce beaten to the floor DF comes along and puts the boot in by suspending a pilot for exercising her free will not to bail out a creaking operation by flying beyond prescribed safe limits.
with more than a whiff of industrial trouble brewing following the massive rejection of the latest pay offer I'd say DF is trying to head of a work to rule by intimidating his pilots into believing that if they "work to rule" then they will be suspended.
Despite the fact that Balpa has a recognition agreement with CX and is therefore the sole body authorised to negotiate on behalf of all pilots Mr DF still wrote to all pilots asking them to signify their acceptance of his pay offer direct to him.
He just makes it up as he goes along does this BA manager.
I would say that the top is about to blow at CX.
You have gross pay apartheid.........Two people doing exactly the same job, flying the same AC etc..........yet one takes a fraction of what the other does.
You have three plus years of disruption, fleet and base changes with a management who have only ever been involved with loss making companies.
There is no apparent respect or trust that these managers have the slightest clue what they are doing.
Now with the workforce beaten to the floor DF comes along and puts the boot in by suspending a pilot for exercising her free will not to bail out a creaking operation by flying beyond prescribed safe limits.
with more than a whiff of industrial trouble brewing following the massive rejection of the latest pay offer I'd say DF is trying to head of a work to rule by intimidating his pilots into believing that if they "work to rule" then they will be suspended.
Despite the fact that Balpa has a recognition agreement with CX and is therefore the sole body authorised to negotiate on behalf of all pilots Mr DF still wrote to all pilots asking them to signify their acceptance of his pay offer direct to him.
He just makes it up as he goes along does this BA manager.
Interesting discussion.
Recent roster: On standby called out to operate from an airport that required a positioning flt as pax, then 4 hours wait before departure for 2 sectors. Legal yes (Just) but the person concered had been up for 20 hours prior to the etd. (why? afternoon standby) with positioning sector no oportunity to get some rest, apart from the 4 hours which were in an airport terminal. Yep company said you should be rested refuse at your peril. CAA comment NONE! Flt safety whats that!= what cost?
Recent roster: On standby called out to operate from an airport that required a positioning flt as pax, then 4 hours wait before departure for 2 sectors. Legal yes (Just) but the person concered had been up for 20 hours prior to the etd. (why? afternoon standby) with positioning sector no oportunity to get some rest, apart from the 4 hours which were in an airport terminal. Yep company said you should be rested refuse at your peril. CAA comment NONE!
Flt safety whats that!= what cost?
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Nothing changes!
This sort of thing has been going on in British Regional (wot aint no more!) part of BACX since I was there in 1994 !! Nobody dared to argue with rostering/crewing and one of them was a 19 year old "work experience" person!
I am happy to be out of that mess!!
I am happy to be out of that mess!!
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Dislike British Regional as one might (and many did)
The fact is that Company:-
1. Was focussed
2. Made good profit.
3. Provided good career progression and opportunity
4. Served its customers well.
The fact is that Company:-
1. Was focussed
2. Made good profit.
3. Provided good career progression and opportunity
4. Served its customers well.
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Sheik Zabik:
- Much like British Airways Regional (BAR) then.
And from your previous post:
"with a management who have only ever been involved with loss making companies."
Yeah right! Think you should check your facts!
Could somebody remind me, what was the original point of this thread?
- Much like British Airways Regional (BAR) then.
And from your previous post:
"with a management who have only ever been involved with loss making companies."
Yeah right! Think you should check your facts!
Could somebody remind me, what was the original point of this thread?
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 7th Oct 2004 at 11:08.
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I am sure Dental Floss is just misunderstood, that he is a caring, understanding manager with a history of success behind him, that former colleagues have nothing but deep respect and admiration for him.
But there again I still believe in copper bracelets for rheumatism, the tooth fairy, the Loch Ness monster, the Yeti and Santa Claus.
Perhaps a dose of not answering the phone when not required to, not working when not fit so to do, not going that extra mile to prop up a badly organised operation will perhaps lead to a sea-change in attitude from TDF and higher??
Good luck to all the good guys that I know are getting shafted.
Rgds
Ken.
But there again I still believe in copper bracelets for rheumatism, the tooth fairy, the Loch Ness monster, the Yeti and Santa Claus.
Perhaps a dose of not answering the phone when not required to, not working when not fit so to do, not going that extra mile to prop up a badly organised operation will perhaps lead to a sea-change in attitude from TDF and higher??
Good luck to all the good guys that I know are getting shafted.
Rgds
Ken.
