Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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Oh tiny prince
You speak, apparently enviously, of mainline secondees sitting in their (your?) LHS earning dramatically more money. My friend, if they are sitting in YOUR left hand seat, comfort yourself in the knowledge that Captains generally do earn more than co-pilots! If, for some reason, they are not in YOUR LHS, what is your problem?
Pilots working for MANY other companies will be earning different amounts to pilots in BACX. Mainline secondees have a different employer to you, BUT have, in many cases, been working from the same bases, on the same routes, in the same colour scheme, with the same cabin crew, for the SAME employer for many years.
YOU are the one who is "wet behind the ears" in this operation. You are the interloper, NOT those you denigrate!
In any case, you should be more grateful, for without their presence, BACX could not have been 'gifted' this particular train set, or trains, at all!
Can you see the irony in all this?
Two years ago, all anybody heard was how, people like you could do the regional job so much cheaper than those expensive mainline guys (who perhaps single handedly prevented BAR from EVER making a profit!)
Now you have your feet under the table, all we hear is how you deserve the same T & Cs as the people you displaced!!
Incredible!
You got the gig, because you are cheap! So enjoy your 'success!' Why do you expect support from those you displaced?
Like me!
Good luck with the application! (Oh, and try not to mention your pprune name at the interview, won't you!)
You speak, apparently enviously, of mainline secondees sitting in their (your?) LHS earning dramatically more money. My friend, if they are sitting in YOUR left hand seat, comfort yourself in the knowledge that Captains generally do earn more than co-pilots! If, for some reason, they are not in YOUR LHS, what is your problem?
Pilots working for MANY other companies will be earning different amounts to pilots in BACX. Mainline secondees have a different employer to you, BUT have, in many cases, been working from the same bases, on the same routes, in the same colour scheme, with the same cabin crew, for the SAME employer for many years.
YOU are the one who is "wet behind the ears" in this operation. You are the interloper, NOT those you denigrate!
In any case, you should be more grateful, for without their presence, BACX could not have been 'gifted' this particular train set, or trains, at all!
Can you see the irony in all this?
Two years ago, all anybody heard was how, people like you could do the regional job so much cheaper than those expensive mainline guys (who perhaps single handedly prevented BAR from EVER making a profit!)
Now you have your feet under the table, all we hear is how you deserve the same T & Cs as the people you displaced!!
Incredible!
You got the gig, because you are cheap! So enjoy your 'success!' Why do you expect support from those you displaced?
Like me!
Good luck with the application! (Oh, and try not to mention your pprune name at the interview, won't you!)
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4468, I have to admit my junior friend Little P is right, (I have 16 years in!). Why do you guys have to start losing the thread? You've seen the argument; and thanks to RMC you've been given the facts. That is pretty much the story as I understand it too.
But what do you do? You just carry on the slagging!
Mr Human Factor - I would be keen to know which BACX management had a hand in whatever happened to you at LGW? I suspect you mean it was actually YOUR lot, the same ones who have screwed us over for the last three or four years.
Get the thread back on track, support the girl, support the pilot fraternity. In the name of Goddalmighty, I have never ever heard such petty bickering and point scoring other than in the BA company forum - in the days when we knew the password and used to larf and larf and larf. You guys deserve your management, you joined it. Don't blame US for resenting it!
Now, about this company climbdown.
But what do you do? You just carry on the slagging!
Mr Human Factor - I would be keen to know which BACX management had a hand in whatever happened to you at LGW? I suspect you mean it was actually YOUR lot, the same ones who have screwed us over for the last three or four years.
Get the thread back on track, support the girl, support the pilot fraternity. In the name of Goddalmighty, I have never ever heard such petty bickering and point scoring other than in the BA company forum - in the days when we knew the password and used to larf and larf and larf. You guys deserve your management, you joined it. Don't blame US for resenting it!
Now, about this company climbdown.
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4468 you are such a big girls blouse. You and your mainline girls and boys are just like you, winge winge, whine whine, and they certainly won't go anywhere near discretion (even tho I've offered mine on many a time).
Poor M she was worn to a frazzle and did the only thing anyone sensible would have done.
Mind I've heard it's dear old Uncle John carrying out the hearing, so sure you'll be ok. Think they all realise they have messed up and just want to get out pointing the blame on others now. Wonder what the Sun would make of it all?
lots of love
Jane
Poor M she was worn to a frazzle and did the only thing anyone sensible would have done.
Mind I've heard it's dear old Uncle John carrying out the hearing, so sure you'll be ok. Think they all realise they have messed up and just want to get out pointing the blame on others now. Wonder what the Sun would make of it all?
lots of love
Jane
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Mr Human Factor - I would be keen to know which BACX management had a hand in whatever happened to you at LGW? I suspect you mean it was actually YOUR lot, the same ones who have screwed us over for the last three or four years.
However, I'm sick of the Little P constantly going on about how the mainline secondees are stealing his job, when CX took the jobs from mainline pilots in the first place. Sorry.
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4468
'You got the gig, because you are cheap!'
You lost the gig because you were too expensive.
And your left-over cabin crew inhabiting the MAN crewroom continue to be so. Our management will pick on the weak (eg the subject of this thread) but are too gutless to tackle real labour cost drains - which also include many of themselves.
'You got the gig, because you are cheap!'
You lost the gig because you were too expensive.
And your left-over cabin crew inhabiting the MAN crewroom continue to be so. Our management will pick on the weak (eg the subject of this thread) but are too gutless to tackle real labour cost drains - which also include many of themselves.
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BA Cabin crew.....we could go on at length there. They do an adequate enough job when airborn, but it's a trial getting them there! Their insistence on 'working to rule' as it were is incredible, there is no Company loyalty at all, all they're interestd in often enough is arriving late to collect whatever package that attracts.
Why am I mentioning all this? Because it directly relates to some of the stuff published about discretion, and whether discretion is optional or Company authorised! Most pilots I know will go that extra mile to get the job done, but that dosen't mean everyone has to. I've seen people come in to work with a cold, because they thought they should - STUPID!!! And now, we have a thread xyz pages long where some people, more notably BA mainline people seem inclined to criticise the lady Captain's command authority decision.
Thanks for the facts btw, I didn't know all of those items. What I would like to know (from anyone who genuinely knows) is whether or not the CAA have been involved, officially or via CHIRP? They must surely have a ruling on whther a discretion decision may or may not be challenged by the Company after the event? It seems pretty rum to me that no-one so far has apparently asked them.
Anyway, all the best to M, I'm sure if Essex Girl is right and JA is i/c the hearing then it will all prove to be a storm in a teacup.
Oh, b4 I forget, Max Reheat - WELL SAID!!! Every syllable an accurate one. And for our reluctant colleague Human Factor, it would have been impossible for any of our BACX management to have any part in the LGW decision, because we weren't bought until after that. Of course, it may have been one of our current mainline slimeballs working down there at the time, but my association with Big Airways most fortunately does not go that far back.
Why am I mentioning all this? Because it directly relates to some of the stuff published about discretion, and whether discretion is optional or Company authorised! Most pilots I know will go that extra mile to get the job done, but that dosen't mean everyone has to. I've seen people come in to work with a cold, because they thought they should - STUPID!!! And now, we have a thread xyz pages long where some people, more notably BA mainline people seem inclined to criticise the lady Captain's command authority decision.
Thanks for the facts btw, I didn't know all of those items. What I would like to know (from anyone who genuinely knows) is whether or not the CAA have been involved, officially or via CHIRP? They must surely have a ruling on whther a discretion decision may or may not be challenged by the Company after the event? It seems pretty rum to me that no-one so far has apparently asked them.
Anyway, all the best to M, I'm sure if Essex Girl is right and JA is i/c the hearing then it will all prove to be a storm in a teacup.
Oh, b4 I forget, Max Reheat - WELL SAID!!! Every syllable an accurate one. And for our reluctant colleague Human Factor, it would have been impossible for any of our BACX management to have any part in the LGW decision, because we weren't bought until after that. Of course, it may have been one of our current mainline slimeballs working down there at the time, but my association with Big Airways most fortunately does not go that far back.
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MaxReheat,
(that says it all for a start) 'left over cabin crew inhabiting the crew room' - not very nice is it? The BAR crew joined BA - not BRAL or Manx or Brymon. They have a set of terms and conditions which they would quite rightly like to hang on to - oh and it was their crew room long before it was yours mate - don't forget that. If you want to join mainline try the application and selection process. Sounds to me like the back door would suit you much better though......enjoy CitiExpress
(that says it all for a start) 'left over cabin crew inhabiting the crew room' - not very nice is it? The BAR crew joined BA - not BRAL or Manx or Brymon. They have a set of terms and conditions which they would quite rightly like to hang on to - oh and it was their crew room long before it was yours mate - don't forget that. If you want to join mainline try the application and selection process. Sounds to me like the back door would suit you much better though......enjoy CitiExpress
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Mactom
I would remind you that your less well off and less cosseted colleagues who share the CITIEXPRESS crew room with you did not ask to be associated with BA.
The BAR cabin crew have a very enviable (albeit industrially archaic) set of T&Cs which they, understandably, wish to preserve and the BACX management are, and I'll say it again, too gutless to do anything about. Nevertheless, teh ex BAR people are now working (when they deign to) for a company which does not offer its cabin crew T&Cs and pay remotely approaching those they enjoy. The creation of BACX, whichever way you look at it, was to put BA's shorthaul UK regions into Europe services on a lower cost base and the ex BAR cabin crew are an anomoly in that equation which needs sorting out.
I'm not sure that anywhere in my post did I allude to aspirations to work for Mainline. If the calibre of the hired-in mainline management BACX has is any reflection on those in mainline then I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
And don't call me 'mate'.
I would remind you that your less well off and less cosseted colleagues who share the CITIEXPRESS crew room with you did not ask to be associated with BA.
The BAR cabin crew have a very enviable (albeit industrially archaic) set of T&Cs which they, understandably, wish to preserve and the BACX management are, and I'll say it again, too gutless to do anything about. Nevertheless, teh ex BAR people are now working (when they deign to) for a company which does not offer its cabin crew T&Cs and pay remotely approaching those they enjoy. The creation of BACX, whichever way you look at it, was to put BA's shorthaul UK regions into Europe services on a lower cost base and the ex BAR cabin crew are an anomoly in that equation which needs sorting out.
I'm not sure that anywhere in my post did I allude to aspirations to work for Mainline. If the calibre of the hired-in mainline management BACX has is any reflection on those in mainline then I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
And don't call me 'mate'.
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Very eloquently put MaxReheat - (do I detect a Cranwell education thereabouts?)
On message so as to speak, does anyone know a date for this supposed 'hearing' or whatever? When will the stress and strain be off poor old M?
We're all rooting for you girl, don't worry!
Regds,
PP
On message so as to speak, does anyone know a date for this supposed 'hearing' or whatever? When will the stress and strain be off poor old M?
We're all rooting for you girl, don't worry!
Regds,
PP
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Max
You wrote:
"I'm not sure that anywhere in my post did I allude to aspirations to work for Mainline."
I have to say
I'm not sure that anywhere in Mactom's post did he allude to 'ACTUALLY' working for mainline! (Or BACX!)
You also wrote:
"The creation of BACX, whichever way you look at it, was to put BA's shorthaul UK regions into Europe services on a lower cost base"
We agree
But now read my earlier post regarding "feet under the table"
It's a conundrum isn't it!
You wrote:
"I'm not sure that anywhere in my post did I allude to aspirations to work for Mainline."
I have to say
I'm not sure that anywhere in Mactom's post did he allude to 'ACTUALLY' working for mainline! (Or BACX!)
You also wrote:
"The creation of BACX, whichever way you look at it, was to put BA's shorthaul UK regions into Europe services on a lower cost base"
We agree
But now read my earlier post regarding "feet under the table"
It's a conundrum isn't it!
back door?
If I'm missing something, please correct me, but if the back door route to BA is being taken over, like BCal, Danair, Cambrian(I bet you've never heard of them) etc..., and losing your command and seniority, then how is that an easier route to a BA command than remembering to turn up for an interview, then being sponsored for your ATPL and type rated and well paid, and then jumping the queue by bidding for the regions to get a command ahead of your mates on the 400?
Oh, and if you do get stuck at LHR/LGW and you don't like it, then surely you do what the rest of us do, hand in the old notice and move to another company.
Again, if I'm missing the plot, let me know, but a BA secondee seems to be a very rare beast - a BA pilot who sounds wholeheartedly pro management!! not many of you around and rightly so.
Would it be asking too much for a little bit of grace on this forum from the BA mainline employees and a little bit of insight into the genuine problems faced by your colleagues at BACX?
Oh, and if you do get stuck at LHR/LGW and you don't like it, then surely you do what the rest of us do, hand in the old notice and move to another company.
Again, if I'm missing the plot, let me know, but a BA secondee seems to be a very rare beast - a BA pilot who sounds wholeheartedly pro management!! not many of you around and rightly so.
Would it be asking too much for a little bit of grace on this forum from the BA mainline employees and a little bit of insight into the genuine problems faced by your colleagues at BACX?
Nice posting hec7or.
We do realise though that it is only a very small minority (though very vocal!) who are so anti BACX. The thread should be about abuse of a captains right to exercise (or not) discretion. Smug comments from those with elevated T+Cs who will never be put into the same situation as the unfortunate and highly respected lady in question have sadly brought this into the usual 'them and us' slanging match.
Let's not forget we are supposed to be professionals ( and perhaps even mature with it).
Let's forget the 'them and us' and replace it with 'WE'. WE should be fighting for one another. Divide and conquer is such an old tactic, yet is still being used as ground rule 1 for our management.
We do realise though that it is only a very small minority (though very vocal!) who are so anti BACX. The thread should be about abuse of a captains right to exercise (or not) discretion. Smug comments from those with elevated T+Cs who will never be put into the same situation as the unfortunate and highly respected lady in question have sadly brought this into the usual 'them and us' slanging match.
Let's not forget we are supposed to be professionals ( and perhaps even mature with it).
Let's forget the 'them and us' and replace it with 'WE'. WE should be fighting for one another. Divide and conquer is such an old tactic, yet is still being used as ground rule 1 for our management.
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4468,
That's right - you can't have it both ways can you?
MaxReheat,
So the profitability of the whole CitiExpress operation rests on the costs associated with the ex BAR cabin crew then does it?
I think not. Let's not forget they didn't ask to be associated with a company with T's and C's like yours either. I'd love to see you in a similar situation to the BAR cabin crew - you'd be the first one dripping on about how unfair it all was on this forum....4468 is far too clever for the likes of you.
That's right - you can't have it both ways can you?
MaxReheat,
So the profitability of the whole CitiExpress operation rests on the costs associated with the ex BAR cabin crew then does it?
I think not. Let's not forget they didn't ask to be associated with a company with T's and C's like yours either. I'd love to see you in a similar situation to the BAR cabin crew - you'd be the first one dripping on about how unfair it all was on this forum....4468 is far too clever for the likes of you.
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Ransman
You are wrong.
It is called "Captain's" discretion for a very good reason. It is NOT called "crew's" discretion.
Any crew member who does not feel fit to continue may, indeed should, offload themselves. This may, or may not, prevent the flight from dispatching, but they would not be exercising "Captains" discretion.
Only trying to stop you getting yourself into trouble, through not understanding the rules, you understand
You are wrong.
It is called "Captain's" discretion for a very good reason. It is NOT called "crew's" discretion.
Any crew member who does not feel fit to continue may, indeed should, offload themselves. This may, or may not, prevent the flight from dispatching, but they would not be exercising "Captains" discretion.
Only trying to stop you getting yourself into trouble, through not understanding the rules, you understand
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Nice to see the thread getting back on track......
Earlier comments refer to BA Mainline pilots not excercising discretion. I've used it 8 times in the last year and that tends to be the rule not the exception. We also have trips rostered regularly to a few minutes away from max FDP.
I wish the unfortunate scapegoat the best of luck in the following weeks/months and ALL pilots at CityExpress, do the honourable thing and wind your necks in, be it seconded or not. This thread became a disgrace to our profession and until page 13 was embarassing for any UK pilot.
There's 'thread creep' and there's thread 'creeps'. Try not to be second one, eh?
Earlier comments refer to BA Mainline pilots not excercising discretion. I've used it 8 times in the last year and that tends to be the rule not the exception. We also have trips rostered regularly to a few minutes away from max FDP.
I wish the unfortunate scapegoat the best of luck in the following weeks/months and ALL pilots at CityExpress, do the honourable thing and wind your necks in, be it seconded or not. This thread became a disgrace to our profession and until page 13 was embarassing for any UK pilot.
There's 'thread creep' and there's thread 'creeps'. Try not to be second one, eh?
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And anyone with a saintly, 'holier than thou', righteous, nauseating comment like that would fall fair and square into category 2!
BTW, it's "exercising"!! not "excercising" !!
BTW, it's "exercising"!! not "excercising" !!
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I wish Capt M that she has the strength to pull this through. It sounds like fossi wants, like mentioned above, to make a scapegoat out of her. It's incredible!
I think what would be appreciated if all the pilots and CC for that matter would pull together and work to rule, and not think: I'm allright Jack! Because: It could be YOU!
She needs our support please: Let's not let her down!
I think what would be appreciated if all the pilots and CC for that matter would pull together and work to rule, and not think: I'm allright Jack! Because: It could be YOU!
She needs our support please: Let's not let her down!
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Sparkle,
The work to rule (at least) is coming but not while the case is sub judice.The pilot workforce is getting to hear the facts about this case - most of those who thought "there was no smoke without fire" now know otherwise. We have to wait for the company to make its decision; if that is anything other than total exoneration then there will be indeed trouble brewing at Citi Express during December.
The work to rule (at least) is coming but not while the case is sub judice.The pilot workforce is getting to hear the facts about this case - most of those who thought "there was no smoke without fire" now know otherwise. We have to wait for the company to make its decision; if that is anything other than total exoneration then there will be indeed trouble brewing at Citi Express during December.