BA drug and alcohol tests begin
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bjcc According to the ANO , there has always been legislation re: working impaired due to alcohol or drugs. Many cabin crew may not have thought these rules applied to them though. The BA rules were lifted straight from the ANO.
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Well if you look on page 1 FFF claims to have witnessed far more than I ever have in 34 years professional aviation, in bars downroute. People in the bar at 2am and up at 6 to see them checking out for duty! Not bad for a 'ground handling instructor' eh! One that is prone to exaggeration methinks!
As for bjcc, I find your posting obscene as well as your spelling atrocious. I make no comments concerning cabin crew. Apart from working on the same aeroplane they bear no more similarity professionally with pilots than refuellers or caterers or engineers do, and I have no idea what they get up to off duty, just as I have no idea if engineers do indeed smoke funny substances at weekends. As far as I am concerned, whatever you feel you know about pilots and banned substances, I don't believe you know more than me about it- I've spent 34 years of being away half the month with them. Pilots are professionals and are very aware of their responsibilities and the fact that there are people all over the world dying to get a pilot's scalp on their belt- it seems to have become a sort of challenge thing. Random tests are still not allowed as far as I know, and if asked to carry out one, I will consult with BALPA for advice before agreeing to participate. So what is all this noise about that BA has introduced them? It's been done in a sensitive way- it seems to have dragged out responses and judgements from people who have nothing to do with it!
As for bjcc, I find your posting obscene as well as your spelling atrocious. I make no comments concerning cabin crew. Apart from working on the same aeroplane they bear no more similarity professionally with pilots than refuellers or caterers or engineers do, and I have no idea what they get up to off duty, just as I have no idea if engineers do indeed smoke funny substances at weekends. As far as I am concerned, whatever you feel you know about pilots and banned substances, I don't believe you know more than me about it- I've spent 34 years of being away half the month with them. Pilots are professionals and are very aware of their responsibilities and the fact that there are people all over the world dying to get a pilot's scalp on their belt- it seems to have become a sort of challenge thing. Random tests are still not allowed as far as I know, and if asked to carry out one, I will consult with BALPA for advice before agreeing to participate. So what is all this noise about that BA has introduced them? It's been done in a sensitive way- it seems to have dragged out responses and judgements from people who have nothing to do with it!
Last edited by Notso Fantastic; 3rd Aug 2004 at 20:05.
Notso:
You must have a very short memory.
Don't you remember the new BA757 captain getting back from the pub in Athens at 0500 and trying to report for an 0700 departure?
Don't you remember the BA F/O failing the breathaliser test on the M4 on his way to work?
Don't you remember the wonderful publicity promotion on Channel 4 that some of your colleagues managed to produce on a stopover in Spain?
Was there not some upset quite recently in Oslo?
Certainly, I have witnessed BA flight crews behaving quite badly in many a place from JFK to HKG and have even felt quite embarrassed to be British at the time.
You must have a very short memory.
Don't you remember the new BA757 captain getting back from the pub in Athens at 0500 and trying to report for an 0700 departure?
Don't you remember the BA F/O failing the breathaliser test on the M4 on his way to work?
Don't you remember the wonderful publicity promotion on Channel 4 that some of your colleagues managed to produce on a stopover in Spain?
Was there not some upset quite recently in Oslo?
Certainly, I have witnessed BA flight crews behaving quite badly in many a place from JFK to HKG and have even felt quite embarrassed to be British at the time.
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Out of many thousands of pilots, you are going back a long way to dredge up those few incidents. It doesn't happen anymore- there have been examples set and rules introduced, and a cold wind of righteousness now blows. People will not fly with other pilots inebriated.
Until the next lot gets caught and then you will have egg on your face.
Turning up as pissed as a fart two hours before take-off is not what I, or the general public, would describe as an "incident".
Turning up as pissed as a fart two hours before take-off is not what I, or the general public, would describe as an "incident".
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Perhaps we can try and keep this decent & civil?
People have turned up for duty above the limit set, which is lower than driving limits in the UK. I would not say they turned up in the state you describe. Some of those incidents are now history- are you still going to be dredging them up in 10 years? Most of those people paid with their jobs. I don't know what branch you make your living in, but I would bet that the addiction figures are probably worse than commercial pilots. But unlike you, I will not state any 'facts' without supporting 'evidence'.
Perhaps you could explain why 'BA Flight Crew behaviour embarrasses you from JFK to HKG', and why you feel you should take any personal embarrassment from it?
People have turned up for duty above the limit set, which is lower than driving limits in the UK. I would not say they turned up in the state you describe. Some of those incidents are now history- are you still going to be dredging them up in 10 years? Most of those people paid with their jobs. I don't know what branch you make your living in, but I would bet that the addiction figures are probably worse than commercial pilots. But unlike you, I will not state any 'facts' without supporting 'evidence'.
Perhaps you could explain why 'BA Flight Crew behaviour embarrasses you from JFK to HKG', and why you feel you should take any personal embarrassment from it?
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BJ
Nice to see you back spouting your ex-cop crap.
JW whats the matter. Is the "I couldn't get in BA" green eyed monster popping its little head out?
The fact is there have been incidents throughout history. All against the law and generally isolated.
Changed world now however.
NN
Nice to see you back spouting your ex-cop crap.
JW whats the matter. Is the "I couldn't get in BA" green eyed monster popping its little head out?
The fact is there have been incidents throughout history. All against the law and generally isolated.
Changed world now however.
NN
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This subject raises so much hot air, but how much of a potential contribution to safety is there? How many accidents can we put down to 'inebriated/drugged pilots'. You have to dredge the most obscure corners of the annals of aviation to actually find one. I see far more relevant dangers we should be worrying about- I think the alcohol/drug thing has been done to death! Look around....terrorism, congested skies, old equipment, poor ATC in Africa......and we are finely discussing page after page if crews end up having one drink too many too close to report time? Show me the actual danger happening now if it exists- I think it has been sorted out as far as humanly possible. I would prefer to see all the non-expert pprune 'pontificators' giving some brain power to the other far more relevant problems!
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Notso. You have done a good job so far in putting forward the mith that holding a pilots licence makes one a person apart from the norm. Fact is there are just as many pilots per capita who smoke funny stuff at weekends/push the drink limits/beat their partners or flout the law as any other group. Its human nature, and yes pilots are human or so I'm told.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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How many times does it have to be pointed out the self righteous brigade that being 'over the limit' and being 'drunk' are two very different situations. You can be 'over the limit' but not 'drunk'. Whilst not condoning anyone who turns up for work whilst still 'over the limit', there is often a big difference between that and being a staggering drunk as the tabloids and media like to make out.
The limit for technical flight crew here in the UK is one quarter of the road legal limit. I have no doubt that there are many pontificators on here who will have at some stage in their righteous lives driven a motor vehicle after having had a drink at a restaurant say and been perfectly sober and well within the legal limit and certainly not drunk. That same person though would probably have been over the limit for operating an aircraft yet they were still not drunk. The media would no doubt make them out to be tottering slobs, barely able to stand up.
There are too many posters on here who are unable to differentiate between the two states and end up being as hypocritical as the media when discussing this sort of thing. The schadenfreude exhibited by those posters makes me cringe when they know perfectly well that a tiny minority of aircrew have been over the limit and been caught. They were punished several times over, both in their private lives and publicly. Quite a few of them, whilst technically over the limit were certainly not drunk.
Yes, there will no doubt be other cases from time to time but the numbers are miniscule when compared with many other safety related jobs. No doubt the 'holier than thou' brigade will once again jump on the bandwagon when the next pilot that is caught 'over the limit' and will of course dredge up old statistics to try and make up that it is somehow a common problem whereas in reality the numbers are miniscule.
I now wait for the inevitable chorus of outrage and accusations, (wrongly) that I somehow condone drinking and flying as long as you are not caught. Just remember that you can be 'over the limit' but not impaired by being drunk before some of you cast hypocritical accusations.
The limit for technical flight crew here in the UK is one quarter of the road legal limit. I have no doubt that there are many pontificators on here who will have at some stage in their righteous lives driven a motor vehicle after having had a drink at a restaurant say and been perfectly sober and well within the legal limit and certainly not drunk. That same person though would probably have been over the limit for operating an aircraft yet they were still not drunk. The media would no doubt make them out to be tottering slobs, barely able to stand up.
There are too many posters on here who are unable to differentiate between the two states and end up being as hypocritical as the media when discussing this sort of thing. The schadenfreude exhibited by those posters makes me cringe when they know perfectly well that a tiny minority of aircrew have been over the limit and been caught. They were punished several times over, both in their private lives and publicly. Quite a few of them, whilst technically over the limit were certainly not drunk.
Yes, there will no doubt be other cases from time to time but the numbers are miniscule when compared with many other safety related jobs. No doubt the 'holier than thou' brigade will once again jump on the bandwagon when the next pilot that is caught 'over the limit' and will of course dredge up old statistics to try and make up that it is somehow a common problem whereas in reality the numbers are miniscule.
I now wait for the inevitable chorus of outrage and accusations, (wrongly) that I somehow condone drinking and flying as long as you are not caught. Just remember that you can be 'over the limit' but not impaired by being drunk before some of you cast hypocritical accusations.
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Whatbolt, wherever did you get this 'factlet'?
<<Fact is there are just as many pilots per capita who smoke funny stuff at weekends/push the drink limits/beat their partners or flout the law as any other group. Its human nature, and yes pilots are human or so I'm told.>>
My opinion is pilots are far less liable to alcoholic addiction/substance abuse than the general population as we are all aware how critical our performance can be sometimes. That so few cases of abuse by pilots have come to light shows that the message is well known. It's just the publicity of individual cases is deafening!
There are far more important areas of safety to be looked at than this area where I cannot recall professional pilots in the UK causing an accident due to substance abuse or inebriation.
It is not irrelevant that a shorthaul pilot flying European rosters on a 6 day block can effectively end up being denied any relaxing drink for almost a week. Rather unfair when almost anybody else can have a relaxing drink after work and still go in the next day. 'So what, he's paid for it!'- not really- does his extra pay cover working all holidays including Christmas, unsocial hours, leave when availbale, not usually in holiday periods. To be denied the relaxation of a drink after work as well as doing 6 day weeks shows how hard the job has become. So it's easy for you 'experts' to preach with a wagging finger how you feel aircrew should behave, but you don't have to live under the stringent requirements there are now.
<<Fact is there are just as many pilots per capita who smoke funny stuff at weekends/push the drink limits/beat their partners or flout the law as any other group. Its human nature, and yes pilots are human or so I'm told.>>
My opinion is pilots are far less liable to alcoholic addiction/substance abuse than the general population as we are all aware how critical our performance can be sometimes. That so few cases of abuse by pilots have come to light shows that the message is well known. It's just the publicity of individual cases is deafening!
There are far more important areas of safety to be looked at than this area where I cannot recall professional pilots in the UK causing an accident due to substance abuse or inebriation.
It is not irrelevant that a shorthaul pilot flying European rosters on a 6 day block can effectively end up being denied any relaxing drink for almost a week. Rather unfair when almost anybody else can have a relaxing drink after work and still go in the next day. 'So what, he's paid for it!'- not really- does his extra pay cover working all holidays including Christmas, unsocial hours, leave when availbale, not usually in holiday periods. To be denied the relaxation of a drink after work as well as doing 6 day weeks shows how hard the job has become. So it's easy for you 'experts' to preach with a wagging finger how you feel aircrew should behave, but you don't have to live under the stringent requirements there are now.
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Notso
Not going on anymore, you say? 1 week ago in Copenhagen. 2 weeks ago in Bahrain. 1 month ago in East Midlands. 2 months ago in Istanbul. Ehh, okay then, I suppose the crews in question entered and exited the hotels in fake (airline names intentionally deleted) uniforms just to raise a stirr then? Before someone asks, no, I will not provide the hotel names here - you journo types may safely conduct your own research.
Is this an issue only applicable to UK crews? Hardly, but they're the only ones I've personally witnessed and they are very, very visible.
You state that crews operating multi-sectors all day for 6 days haven't got time for a "relaxing" drink, indicating to me that they work flat out all year 6 days every week. Don't know about you, but I've never meet anyone working a roster like that. I am also intriqued as to what kind of FTL will allow people to work 16+ hours a day, for 6 days in a row. Please enlighten me. Besides, when I signed up to join this party it was made very clear, at least to me, that drinking to the extent that it would affect my performance the next day was expressly forbidden. A landing beer or a glass of wine for dinner, not a problem. As long as we stopped drinking well in advance if reporting early the next morning, effectively setting the limit at 1 or 2 drinks and stoppage time at STA - 8 hours. If one goes on a p1ss-up, then the 24 hour rule applies. Simple, very bloody simple. If allegedly responsible people have a problem adhering to these rules, maybe they are in the wrong line of work. If you absolutely must have a drink to relax, maybe there is a problem somewhere?
Finally, after that 6 day multi-sector week I suppose you'll get a few days off, where you may indulge to your heats content.
I'm sorry mate, but your attitude is a bit head in the sand, and denying that there is a problem, or claiming that a "relaxing" drink is almost a requirement baffels me slightly. I did indeed say that a landing beer is a divine right for aviators, and will stick to that statement. However, if I'm closing L1 at 2300 and have to report back again at 0600, then the landing beer is off. However, few crew to my knowledge work from 0600 to 2300, 6 days in a row. Personally, I can forego a landing beer once in a while. Reluctantly and bitching, obviously, but it can be done. And I'm not the one driving the aeroplanes, merely looking after the loading.
Cargoboy
I hear what you are saying, and get the essence of what you are saying. The problem is that, while you may not be technically drunk the fact is that you may be over the limit, and therefore illegal. I didn't make the rules; I just have to follow them. Those rules were made clear when I signed the contract, and that is basically that. You probably know perfectly well that there are rules which, on the face of it, seems a bit daft. But where do you draw the line? For my part, the first objective of aviation is safety. Anything that can enhance the safety, or reduce the risk, is in my book a "good thing". Not necessarily easy, neat and tidy, but necessary to ensure that safety is as good as it can possibly get.
Do pilots really need a sim ride every 6 months to practice V cuts? How many times does that happen to your average pilot in real life? Do we need to practice emergency evac and fire drills every year, when the vast majority of us will luckily never experience an evac or cabin fire? Do we need a rule that says max. alcohol content in your blood stream is so and so, when most of us can hold a beer or two more, yet be perfectly capable of operating with 0.02% over the limit? To my mind, the answer to all of the above questions are "Yes, we do".
Is this an issue only applicable to UK crews? Hardly, but they're the only ones I've personally witnessed and they are very, very visible.
You state that crews operating multi-sectors all day for 6 days haven't got time for a "relaxing" drink, indicating to me that they work flat out all year 6 days every week. Don't know about you, but I've never meet anyone working a roster like that. I am also intriqued as to what kind of FTL will allow people to work 16+ hours a day, for 6 days in a row. Please enlighten me. Besides, when I signed up to join this party it was made very clear, at least to me, that drinking to the extent that it would affect my performance the next day was expressly forbidden. A landing beer or a glass of wine for dinner, not a problem. As long as we stopped drinking well in advance if reporting early the next morning, effectively setting the limit at 1 or 2 drinks and stoppage time at STA - 8 hours. If one goes on a p1ss-up, then the 24 hour rule applies. Simple, very bloody simple. If allegedly responsible people have a problem adhering to these rules, maybe they are in the wrong line of work. If you absolutely must have a drink to relax, maybe there is a problem somewhere?
Finally, after that 6 day multi-sector week I suppose you'll get a few days off, where you may indulge to your heats content.
I'm sorry mate, but your attitude is a bit head in the sand, and denying that there is a problem, or claiming that a "relaxing" drink is almost a requirement baffels me slightly. I did indeed say that a landing beer is a divine right for aviators, and will stick to that statement. However, if I'm closing L1 at 2300 and have to report back again at 0600, then the landing beer is off. However, few crew to my knowledge work from 0600 to 2300, 6 days in a row. Personally, I can forego a landing beer once in a while. Reluctantly and bitching, obviously, but it can be done. And I'm not the one driving the aeroplanes, merely looking after the loading.
Cargoboy
I hear what you are saying, and get the essence of what you are saying. The problem is that, while you may not be technically drunk the fact is that you may be over the limit, and therefore illegal. I didn't make the rules; I just have to follow them. Those rules were made clear when I signed the contract, and that is basically that. You probably know perfectly well that there are rules which, on the face of it, seems a bit daft. But where do you draw the line? For my part, the first objective of aviation is safety. Anything that can enhance the safety, or reduce the risk, is in my book a "good thing". Not necessarily easy, neat and tidy, but necessary to ensure that safety is as good as it can possibly get.
Do pilots really need a sim ride every 6 months to practice V cuts? How many times does that happen to your average pilot in real life? Do we need to practice emergency evac and fire drills every year, when the vast majority of us will luckily never experience an evac or cabin fire? Do we need a rule that says max. alcohol content in your blood stream is so and so, when most of us can hold a beer or two more, yet be perfectly capable of operating with 0.02% over the limit? To my mind, the answer to all of the above questions are "Yes, we do".
Last edited by Flip Flop Flyer; 4th Aug 2004 at 10:28.
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FFF- I don't know what angle you have with pilots,but it seems some of your other problems are showing! Do you follow them around? Quite a lot of 'witnessing' for a 'Ground Handling Instructor' ('loader'?). You are making some very serious accusations that are so totally not borne out in my experience that I think you have an overactive imagination!
<<If you absolutely must have a drink to relax, maybe there is a problem somewhere?>>.....I don't actually drink myself. But when I am in a bar with crew, I am perfectly happy for them to relax however they so wish, as long as it is legal- so there! Nice try. Now for you.....I note your profile says 'anything involving beer'. Do you think perhaps your beer goggles are getting a bit overpowerful? Maybe you should see someone about your problem if alcohol consumption is so evil to you?
Now why don't you tell us what your angle is and why you try and muscle in so much on aircrew life? Maybe it will give us an insight into why you have so much to say and so many accusations to make! And I am no journo!
To 'enlighten you', you obviously have far less familiarity with pilot's shorthaul rosters than you pretend. If you knew anything about alcohol dissipation and European rosters involving long days, it is quite clear that on many 6 day blocks, it is not possible to have a drink throughout the block, and the night before. You obviously know diddly squat about it- I suggest in view of your ignorance you stop making so much noise about it!
PS........ and less of the 'mate' please.
<<If you absolutely must have a drink to relax, maybe there is a problem somewhere?>>.....I don't actually drink myself. But when I am in a bar with crew, I am perfectly happy for them to relax however they so wish, as long as it is legal- so there! Nice try. Now for you.....I note your profile says 'anything involving beer'. Do you think perhaps your beer goggles are getting a bit overpowerful? Maybe you should see someone about your problem if alcohol consumption is so evil to you?
Now why don't you tell us what your angle is and why you try and muscle in so much on aircrew life? Maybe it will give us an insight into why you have so much to say and so many accusations to make! And I am no journo!
To 'enlighten you', you obviously have far less familiarity with pilot's shorthaul rosters than you pretend. If you knew anything about alcohol dissipation and European rosters involving long days, it is quite clear that on many 6 day blocks, it is not possible to have a drink throughout the block, and the night before. You obviously know diddly squat about it- I suggest in view of your ignorance you stop making so much noise about it!
PS........ and less of the 'mate' please.
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Notso
I'll pretend that I didn't understand the allegations you made, owing to my poor understanding of your mother tongue. Suffice to say that professionally I'm wearing more hats than I care to count, one of them being a flying loadmaster. Thus, one could postulate that I am indeed part of the crew, and that is where my interest lies. Or is it, in your book, only pilots that should take an interest in what goes on in the cockpit; cabin crew sticking to the cabin; engineers sticking to the oil can and so forth? Quite contrary to the CRM courses I've gone through, but never mind. That is my angle, Notso, the fact that from my point of view we're in this thing together. If this thread drifts in the way of how some ground handlers behave themselves, stand-by for a really flaming pen from this here poster! Alas, we are currently discussing flight deck crew and drinking. My observations are that UK crews, more than others, like to indulge a bit more than most and that they don't always look at their watches before calling it quits. If that runs opposite to your experience, then so be it. We all have a right to our own opinions, and I shall respect yours to the best of my abilities. Perhaps we should just agree on disagreeing.
Like I said previously, I don't have a problem with a landing beer or a glass of wine for dinner, I actually throughly enjoy it - fantastic way to wind down, have a bit of a banter and a laugh. Not always possible though, given the roster, and re-reading my contract it doesn't say anything about a right to a landing beer.
The "anything involving beer" statement was meant as an attempt at humour. I appreciate that in this context it could be misconstrued, but I hope this explanation will provide you with some sort of clarity.
PS
The airline I work for is 99% multi-sector short-haul. Please get off the high horse will you? If your roster doesn't allow you to legally have a landing beer, then either change the roster (fat chance), forego the beer or change company.
PPS
And not a single "mate"!
PPSS
The only problem I have with pilots is that there's not enough of them to buy the beers.
Like I said previously, I don't have a problem with a landing beer or a glass of wine for dinner, I actually throughly enjoy it - fantastic way to wind down, have a bit of a banter and a laugh. Not always possible though, given the roster, and re-reading my contract it doesn't say anything about a right to a landing beer.
The "anything involving beer" statement was meant as an attempt at humour. I appreciate that in this context it could be misconstrued, but I hope this explanation will provide you with some sort of clarity.
PS
The airline I work for is 99% multi-sector short-haul. Please get off the high horse will you? If your roster doesn't allow you to legally have a landing beer, then either change the roster (fat chance), forego the beer or change company.
PPS
And not a single "mate"!
PPSS
The only problem I have with pilots is that there's not enough of them to buy the beers.
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Notso,
Sorry but I have never claimed to be great at spelling....irrelevent though it is to this.
I have to agree with serveal others who accuse you of a head in the sand approach. Pilots Doctors Police officers and every other occupation suffer from a percentage of people who have a problem with drug and alcohol abuse. However this isn't about those with a problem so much as stopping people carring out a job where they may be affected by taking either drugs (and not just the ones you can't buy in a chemists) and alcohol. No one is stopping you from relaxing with a drink when you are off duty, just they are stopping you from coming in with alcohol in your body. The same as a train driver or plenty of other occupations. You may well find any challange to your greater knowladge obsene, but the fact remains that pilots get arrested before and after flying with blood alcohol concentrations above the driving limits. If they are above the drink drive limit as you know they are certainly above those for flying.
More recent examples are the virgin pilot currently awaiting trail in the US and a more recent case at LHR.
NN,
Do you feel better now? Did the constables tell you off once? Leaving aside your petty abuse was there a point to your post?
Sorry but I have never claimed to be great at spelling....irrelevent though it is to this.
I have to agree with serveal others who accuse you of a head in the sand approach. Pilots Doctors Police officers and every other occupation suffer from a percentage of people who have a problem with drug and alcohol abuse. However this isn't about those with a problem so much as stopping people carring out a job where they may be affected by taking either drugs (and not just the ones you can't buy in a chemists) and alcohol. No one is stopping you from relaxing with a drink when you are off duty, just they are stopping you from coming in with alcohol in your body. The same as a train driver or plenty of other occupations. You may well find any challange to your greater knowladge obsene, but the fact remains that pilots get arrested before and after flying with blood alcohol concentrations above the driving limits. If they are above the drink drive limit as you know they are certainly above those for flying.
More recent examples are the virgin pilot currently awaiting trail in the US and a more recent case at LHR.
NN,
Do you feel better now? Did the constables tell you off once? Leaving aside your petty abuse was there a point to your post?
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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However, if I'm closing L1 at 2300 and have to report back again at 0600, then the landing beer is off. However, few crew to my knowledge work from 0600 to 2300, 6 days in a row.
Also, your statement:
Not going on anymore, you say? 1 week ago in Copenhagen. 2 weeks ago in Bahrain. 1 month ago in East Midlands. 2 months ago in Istanbul. Ehh, okay then, I suppose the crews in question entered and exited the hotels in fake (airline names intentionally deleted) uniforms just to raise a stirr then?
After your several hours watching reception you then come down to the hotel bar, the only place ALL those crews whose faces you had memorised and are now wearing civvies come to drink excessively. You now observe them and note how many drinks and what the content of each drink contains, especially the alcohol by volume % so that you can calculate their future blood alcohol level, and hang around until they all retire, probably in your mind to a private room party where drugs can be added to the list of recreational substances they are consuming. Of course, maybe you just went to bed early and assumed that they were all still drinking excessively before retiring for a 2 hour nap before reporting for duty at O'VeryEarly O'Clock?
If you were so concerned at this level of abuse of the rules and the subsequent endangerment of so many innocent lives then why, as a fellow professional, didn't you do something about it? After all, we are all part of the same team aren't we? Perhaps not. I have been flying professionally for over 10 years now and the number of times I have stayed in hotels downroute on short, medium and long haul trips allows me to make the observation that your allegations are fantasy baseless. Even at the more popular crew hotels, there is no way you can know who is on what duty and from what airline. My points above about your uncanny ability to identify the numbers of crew you are so confident are abusing the rules prove to me, and no doubt most of the others who know otherwise, that you are full of hype and fantasy.
Yes, your job may involve an aspect of aircraft safety in as much as you have to supervise the correct loading of which gross errors can affect safety, but please, don't even begin to compare your skills to ours when it comes to our ability to to make serious mistakes. When our mistakes happen, our backside is usually on the line too. Who do you think is the first to arrive at the scene of an airline accident? Precisely because of this, as a group, aircrew tend to be much more aware of the problems and regulate their lives accordingly. The very few exceptions to this, when they make it into the media, are still exceptions even though the media like to use their literary licence to make out that 'over the limit' is actually 'staggering and boozy'.
FFF, your allegations are on a par with the media and based on my observations of your post and my personal experience as a professional pilot, you sir, are full of bovine manure! 
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Cargoboy
1: Read above; I am indeed part of a flight crew from time to time.
2: As a pilot, you are probably aware that we quite often all end up at the same old hotels ending with "ton" or "ott" or "plaza" despite what company we work for.
3: I'm terrible at faces, but it is fairly easy to recognize a UK crew sitting in the bar for three distinct reasons: a/ a mix of 2 blokes and 4-6 ladies, b/ they speak with an English accent and c/they talk very loudly about aeroplanes, bitch about rosters and their early start next morning, complain about their per diems and so forth. Get the drift? You've undoubtedly been there yourself. For other crews, of virtually any nationality or airline, replace b/ as applicable. It hardly requires an intimate knowledge of rosters or a Sherlock Holmes mindset. Plain old reasoning will do. And as you should know, crews over-nighting in Europe flying for a Europen carrier, with some exceptions of course, usually came in on the late and as good as always take the same aeroplane out early next morning. Hardly rocket science, but of course since it is not backed 100% by scientific data, I suppose sticking your head in the sand is an option. Pathetic, in my mind, but still an option. If, with your relatively modest 10 years experience, have yet to encouter this you must have led a sheltered life.
4: No, I don't count the drinks nor the alcohol %. I don't really care. But I have observed, on several occasions and all the ones mentioned in a previous post, that often they are among the last to leave the bar, having sat there for a few hours. Strangely, you rarely hear Italian, German, French, Swedish or Flemmish spoken at those tables, it's always English. Innocent until proved guilty, indeed. Sand, head, stick.
5: If you, with that wealth of experience so obvious from your post, can't fathom the possible lethal consequences of an incorrect loading then I suppose you've spend too little time on freighters. However, where did I ever say that my job had the same safety implications as a pilot? There are infinatly more ways your f.up can kill me than mine can kill you, which is just another good reason why we should all stay off the alcohol 8 hours prior.
6: "Don't dare compare skills". Oh, I'm sorry All Mighty Button Pushing God Of The Skies. I'm not worthy
Listen, you may think that being a pilot is the end all of human intellect. I have another opinion. You can't do your job without me, I can't do my job without you. Simple, really. Took me longer to get this job than getting an ATPL, had I chosen to. I chose not to, end of story.
7: My arse will be roughly .000002 miliseconds after yours arriving at the scene of an accident, being sat there in the jumpseat as the case often is. What is your point?
8: As a lowly loadmaster, FTLs doesn't really apply to us. So it is quite possible to finish up at 2300 (couple of hours after the flyboys went to the hotel) and be back at 0600 (couple of hours before the flyboys leave the hotel) and does happen a lot. You think you're the only who have it tough from time to time? You really should get out more and learn there is more to aviation than flogging aeroplanes from a to b and other professions in avaition than pilots. Some vastly more important, though not me - I'm just one small part of the team.
We all know what goes on guys, why are you so bloody afraid of admitting to it?
2: As a pilot, you are probably aware that we quite often all end up at the same old hotels ending with "ton" or "ott" or "plaza" despite what company we work for.
3: I'm terrible at faces, but it is fairly easy to recognize a UK crew sitting in the bar for three distinct reasons: a/ a mix of 2 blokes and 4-6 ladies, b/ they speak with an English accent and c/they talk very loudly about aeroplanes, bitch about rosters and their early start next morning, complain about their per diems and so forth. Get the drift? You've undoubtedly been there yourself. For other crews, of virtually any nationality or airline, replace b/ as applicable. It hardly requires an intimate knowledge of rosters or a Sherlock Holmes mindset. Plain old reasoning will do. And as you should know, crews over-nighting in Europe flying for a Europen carrier, with some exceptions of course, usually came in on the late and as good as always take the same aeroplane out early next morning. Hardly rocket science, but of course since it is not backed 100% by scientific data, I suppose sticking your head in the sand is an option. Pathetic, in my mind, but still an option. If, with your relatively modest 10 years experience, have yet to encouter this you must have led a sheltered life.
4: No, I don't count the drinks nor the alcohol %. I don't really care. But I have observed, on several occasions and all the ones mentioned in a previous post, that often they are among the last to leave the bar, having sat there for a few hours. Strangely, you rarely hear Italian, German, French, Swedish or Flemmish spoken at those tables, it's always English. Innocent until proved guilty, indeed. Sand, head, stick.
5: If you, with that wealth of experience so obvious from your post, can't fathom the possible lethal consequences of an incorrect loading then I suppose you've spend too little time on freighters. However, where did I ever say that my job had the same safety implications as a pilot? There are infinatly more ways your f.up can kill me than mine can kill you, which is just another good reason why we should all stay off the alcohol 8 hours prior.
6: "Don't dare compare skills". Oh, I'm sorry All Mighty Button Pushing God Of The Skies. I'm not worthy
Listen, you may think that being a pilot is the end all of human intellect. I have another opinion. You can't do your job without me, I can't do my job without you. Simple, really. Took me longer to get this job than getting an ATPL, had I chosen to. I chose not to, end of story.7: My arse will be roughly .000002 miliseconds after yours arriving at the scene of an accident, being sat there in the jumpseat as the case often is. What is your point?
8: As a lowly loadmaster, FTLs doesn't really apply to us. So it is quite possible to finish up at 2300 (couple of hours after the flyboys went to the hotel) and be back at 0600 (couple of hours before the flyboys leave the hotel) and does happen a lot. You think you're the only who have it tough from time to time? You really should get out more and learn there is more to aviation than flogging aeroplanes from a to b and other professions in avaition than pilots. Some vastly more important, though not me - I'm just one small part of the team.
We all know what goes on guys, why are you so bloody afraid of admitting to it?