BA drug and alcohol tests begin
Junior trash
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Re: "Plain old reasoning will do. And as you should know, crews over-nighting in Europe flying for a Europen carrier, with some exceptions of course, usually came in on the late and as good as always take the same aeroplane out early next morning."
That is actually VERY unusual for any UK based airline, certainly the 2 main carriers that night stop, as this is a split duty and limits the crew to 1 out 1 back which is inneficient rostering. They are also on duty for whole period and i have never known a crew leave their rooms on 1. Most Uk crews either arrive lunchtime and leave early morning, or arrive late leave lunchtime. So your assumptions are incorrect.
That is actually VERY unusual for any UK based airline, certainly the 2 main carriers that night stop, as this is a split duty and limits the crew to 1 out 1 back which is inneficient rostering. They are also on duty for whole period and i have never known a crew leave their rooms on 1. Most Uk crews either arrive lunchtime and leave early morning, or arrive late leave lunchtime. So your assumptions are incorrect.
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Hotel Mode
Fair enough. Not my experience from talking to them though, but you may very well know something I don't. Doesn't really mean a great deal anyway, does it? Early morning departures following a long night in the bar is not on, even if you've been hotac'd for a week.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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No one is saying crews don't have a drink in the bar when off duty. It's your inference that almost all UK crews that you see are drinking heavily, well into the 8 or 12 hours before their next report for duty that I and many of us have a problem with. You are like those 87.3% of people who invent statistics off the top of their head. Your generalising about the habits of UK aircrew that you allege you have observed are unfounded. I doubt you could swear under oath and identify one person who you had observed and truthfully say that you were, without any doubt, sure, that that person had consumed alcohol in breach of his companies Ops Manual rules AND that that person had reported for duty with an alcohol level that was above the legal limit AND then went on to operate an aircraft. If you could, and I'm of no doubt that you are going to claim that you can, then you are no worse than the same person you are accusing of being in breach of those regulations and laws.
To take this further, I would claim that you are generalising, as has been pointed out, just observing the fact that there are two guys and four ladies sitting together at a table which you claim to be able to overhear all their conversation about their early start the next morning and their bitching about their roster is just fabrication on your part. Your assumption that short haul EU crews do late arrival/split duty/early start already shows you up to have minimal idea about rostering practices. As a freight loadmaster, and being free from the incumberence of FTL's, you have even less idea about pax operations.
At the end of the day, by your own admission, you decided you didn't want to become a pilot even though you could have easily done the ATPL exams.
You decided that being a freightmaster was a much more rewarding career, no doubt because it kept you close to those of us at the sharp end. Yet, here we have you, with an admission in your profile that beer plays a big part in your life, pontificating and making unsubstantiated allegations against a whole segment of our profession that we take very little care of the rules when it comes to alcohol. You claim to be able to spot a crew at twenty paces who are breaching all the rules.
If you are so damned clever and sure of yourself then why haven't you done anything about it except cling on to our coattails here on PPrune and repeatedly spouted unsubstantiated rubbish. I put it to you that you are just a frustrated wannabe and are trying to make yourself sound more important than your job specification allows you to. May I suggest PFRuNe. I'm sure with your ESP you can figure out what the F stands for.
To take this further, I would claim that you are generalising, as has been pointed out, just observing the fact that there are two guys and four ladies sitting together at a table which you claim to be able to overhear all their conversation about their early start the next morning and their bitching about their roster is just fabrication on your part. Your assumption that short haul EU crews do late arrival/split duty/early start already shows you up to have minimal idea about rostering practices. As a freight loadmaster, and being free from the incumberence of FTL's, you have even less idea about pax operations.
At the end of the day, by your own admission, you decided you didn't want to become a pilot even though you could have easily done the ATPL exams.
You decided that being a freightmaster was a much more rewarding career, no doubt because it kept you close to those of us at the sharp end. Yet, here we have you, with an admission in your profile that beer plays a big part in your life, pontificating and making unsubstantiated allegations against a whole segment of our profession that we take very little care of the rules when it comes to alcohol. You claim to be able to spot a crew at twenty paces who are breaching all the rules.If you are so damned clever and sure of yourself then why haven't you done anything about it except cling on to our coattails here on PPrune and repeatedly spouted unsubstantiated rubbish. I put it to you that you are just a frustrated wannabe and are trying to make yourself sound more important than your job specification allows you to. May I suggest PFRuNe. I'm sure with your ESP you can figure out what the F stands for.
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Cargo
This is getting a little old hat. I never said anywhere I could easily pass the ATPL exam (though I have passed the written when it was called a "D" certificate). What I said is that being the holder of an ATPL license doesn't make you a God, and that the time required to hold the job I currently do took longer than getting an ATPL would have, had I decided to go that route. You really should read what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote. A "freightmeister" (cool term by the way, thanks) is only a part of my job, a fact that could not possibly have elluded you had you taken the time to read rather than interpret previous postings.
Nowhere have I made general assumptions, only that I've personally witnessed (and listed the occasions) where I've encountered UK crews in hotel bars doing things that I found to be rather stupid. You are of course entitled to defend your fellow pilots, that is an applaudable trait, but to do so blindly is, in my opinion, foolish. I'll defend my collegues too, but not if I know they've done something wrong. We all make mistakes, experience errors of judgement, have a brain fart - call it what you like. To my mind, making a mistake is human. Learning from that mistake and take appropriate action to ensure it will not be repeated, is an integral part of holding any job of responsibility. I've made my fair share of blunders, and must also admit to a few cases of repeat blunders as much as it stings. But I try my best, and I certainly don't stick my head in the sand.
You may safely claim whatever you please, as luck would have it I'm rather thick skinned. But to place judgement on a person you've never met, based on a few postings on an anonymous bulletin board is, well, not the way I was thought psychological profiling. 20+ years in this business does teach you a thing or two, but I'll leave you with your convictions and merely hope they don't come back and bite you one day.
Enough is enough, and this is where I'll throw my toys out of the pram and retreat to the nearest bar. For I do enjoy beer tremendously, and I'm working the office this week so can legally drink till I fall off the bar stool, and report back tomorrow (on flex-time and for non-safety implication duties) suffering severe hangovers. Sticking to the ground has it's merits.
Keep the blue side up.
Nowhere have I made general assumptions, only that I've personally witnessed (and listed the occasions) where I've encountered UK crews in hotel bars doing things that I found to be rather stupid. You are of course entitled to defend your fellow pilots, that is an applaudable trait, but to do so blindly is, in my opinion, foolish. I'll defend my collegues too, but not if I know they've done something wrong. We all make mistakes, experience errors of judgement, have a brain fart - call it what you like. To my mind, making a mistake is human. Learning from that mistake and take appropriate action to ensure it will not be repeated, is an integral part of holding any job of responsibility. I've made my fair share of blunders, and must also admit to a few cases of repeat blunders as much as it stings. But I try my best, and I certainly don't stick my head in the sand.
You may safely claim whatever you please, as luck would have it I'm rather thick skinned. But to place judgement on a person you've never met, based on a few postings on an anonymous bulletin board is, well, not the way I was thought psychological profiling. 20+ years in this business does teach you a thing or two, but I'll leave you with your convictions and merely hope they don't come back and bite you one day.
Enough is enough, and this is where I'll throw my toys out of the pram and retreat to the nearest bar. For I do enjoy beer tremendously, and I'm working the office this week so can legally drink till I fall off the bar stool, and report back tomorrow (on flex-time and for non-safety implication duties) suffering severe hangovers. Sticking to the ground has it's merits.
Keep the blue side up.
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I have no interest in Loadmastering, I have no interest in Loadmaster scheduling limits, I have no intention of ever flying an aeroplane with a Loadmaster on board. A loadmaster may be part of the team checking the aeroplane's loading, but I do not see a Loadmaster as part of the 'crew'. A Loadmaster is nothing more than a 'Chief Loader' required to come along for the ride. I doubt I would even have you on the Flight Deck (unless the aeroplane started tipping up peculiarly!). I think your outfit should be warned what a snitching, lying, exaggerating individual they have trying to nail them!
bjcc- thank you for pointing out that pilots have been known to be arrested before and after flying above driving limits. Er........so have Police Officers......frequently......and speeding. Funny thing is they know the ways to get off speeding convictions (Princess Ann's driver?). It happens in any job- even a Chief Constable got zapped for driving over the alcohol limit. It happens. All you can do is try and minimise it with sensitive help from the employer.Which brings us back to the start of this thread- BA just introducing sensitive (and sensible) monitoring of new employees and those with a 'history'. Are we all agreed it is good? Shall we put this to bed to stop frustrated non-pilots venting their spleen abouot pilots now?
bjcc- thank you for pointing out that pilots have been known to be arrested before and after flying above driving limits. Er........so have Police Officers......frequently......and speeding. Funny thing is they know the ways to get off speeding convictions (Princess Ann's driver?). It happens in any job- even a Chief Constable got zapped for driving over the alcohol limit. It happens. All you can do is try and minimise it with sensitive help from the employer.Which brings us back to the start of this thread- BA just introducing sensitive (and sensible) monitoring of new employees and those with a 'history'. Are we all agreed it is good? Shall we put this to bed to stop frustrated non-pilots venting their spleen abouot pilots now?
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Seems fair enough to me. The biggest problem with the alcohol limit is that the individual has no reliable way of measuring his/her alcohol level at the time of reporting for duty.
We're used to working to limits (FTL, crosswind, mtow, speeds etc) where there are reliable means of measuring them. With the alcohol limit, every time you turn up for duty, you don't know where you're at.
Get a green light, go flying, get a red light, go home - simple.
We're used to working to limits (FTL, crosswind, mtow, speeds etc) where there are reliable means of measuring them. With the alcohol limit, every time you turn up for duty, you don't know where you're at.
Get a green light, go flying, get a red light, go home - simple.
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For the technically challenged, this is what he's on about:
An alcolock, or more formally in Euro-bureaucrat-speak a “breath alcohol ignition interlock device” (BAIID), is fitted to a car’s ignition to stop a driver from starting it if he’s over the drink-driving limit. The device is seen as a way to stop people who have been convicted of driving under the influence from offending again. Trials have been taking place in recent years in the US, Australia, Canada, and Sweden, though not always under this name. The European Union has been conducting studies to see if it ought to be adopted throughout the EU and as a follow-up to this investigation a trial is to take place in two areas of the UK shortly. Supporters of the scheme argue that it helps to prevent repeat offences.
In Sweden 1,500 Volvo trucks have been fitted with the Alcolock.
The “alcolock” requires the driver to take a breath-test before the ignition can be turned on and activates a lock if the result is above a certain level.
An alcolock, or more formally in Euro-bureaucrat-speak a “breath alcohol ignition interlock device” (BAIID), is fitted to a car’s ignition to stop a driver from starting it if he’s over the drink-driving limit. The device is seen as a way to stop people who have been convicted of driving under the influence from offending again. Trials have been taking place in recent years in the US, Australia, Canada, and Sweden, though not always under this name. The European Union has been conducting studies to see if it ought to be adopted throughout the EU and as a follow-up to this investigation a trial is to take place in two areas of the UK shortly. Supporters of the scheme argue that it helps to prevent repeat offences.
In Sweden 1,500 Volvo trucks have been fitted with the Alcolock.
The “alcolock” requires the driver to take a breath-test before the ignition can be turned on and activates a lock if the result is above a certain level.
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Notso
"bjcc- thank you for pointing out that pilots have been known to be arrested before and after flying above driving limits. Er........so have Police Officers......frequently......"
I am not aware of Police Officers being arrested for drink driving before or after flying. If it happens frequently as you clearly state, then I wonder why the press hasn't cottoned onto Police officers moonlighting as pilots while p***ed?
This topic is not about police speeding but as you bring the subject up, many people get a warning for speeding, in fact I have never reported anyone for speeding...only issued warnings.
I am not a pilot, nor am I frustrated about it. I have a different experience to you. OK so you may not have been on a flight deck with a drunk or someone who is unfit to fly, but I have. It goes on, accept it. Perhaps it doesn't to the extent that some have implied, perhaps it does, like you I am not omipresent and couldn't say. While your comment about BA introducing a sensible policy is commendable, why attack people who have a different opinion?
36050100
A good point, but one that applies equaly to any job where there is a limit of alcohol levels. In fact the same thing applies to anyone who drives...Lorry drivers and cab drivers have been saying the same for years. Not to mention the chap who has just piopped down the pub for one....
"bjcc- thank you for pointing out that pilots have been known to be arrested before and after flying above driving limits. Er........so have Police Officers......frequently......"
I am not aware of Police Officers being arrested for drink driving before or after flying. If it happens frequently as you clearly state, then I wonder why the press hasn't cottoned onto Police officers moonlighting as pilots while p***ed?
This topic is not about police speeding but as you bring the subject up, many people get a warning for speeding, in fact I have never reported anyone for speeding...only issued warnings.
I am not a pilot, nor am I frustrated about it. I have a different experience to you. OK so you may not have been on a flight deck with a drunk or someone who is unfit to fly, but I have. It goes on, accept it. Perhaps it doesn't to the extent that some have implied, perhaps it does, like you I am not omipresent and couldn't say. While your comment about BA introducing a sensible policy is commendable, why attack people who have a different opinion?
36050100
A good point, but one that applies equaly to any job where there is a limit of alcohol levels. In fact the same thing applies to anyone who drives...Lorry drivers and cab drivers have been saying the same for years. Not to mention the chap who has just piopped down the pub for one....
Notso:
Do British Airways pilots not do CRM courses? I was quite astonished at your remark:
"I doubt I would even have you on the flightdeck".
That is an amazingly infantile remark for someone who claims to be a professional pilot. When I started in this game, there were four of us on the flight deck and a loadmaster in the back (who wore, quite rightly, aircrew wings). The co-pilot was very definitely the sprog on the crew and he HAD to earn respect from the old hairies, including the loadmaster, otherwise his life would be a misery until he grew up. (Growing up is a novelty that I suspect you have yet to experience).
It is quite obvious that you are only able to commune with one other guy and a bunch of computers on a flight deck. How very, very sad for you do not know what you are missing.
You are quite right in saying that you will never fly on an aircraft with a loadmaster. I don't think you could hack it!
Do British Airways pilots not do CRM courses? I was quite astonished at your remark:
"I doubt I would even have you on the flightdeck".
That is an amazingly infantile remark for someone who claims to be a professional pilot. When I started in this game, there were four of us on the flight deck and a loadmaster in the back (who wore, quite rightly, aircrew wings). The co-pilot was very definitely the sprog on the crew and he HAD to earn respect from the old hairies, including the loadmaster, otherwise his life would be a misery until he grew up. (Growing up is a novelty that I suspect you have yet to experience).
It is quite obvious that you are only able to commune with one other guy and a bunch of computers on a flight deck. How very, very sad for you do not know what you are missing.
You are quite right in saying that you will never fly on an aircraft with a loadmaster. I don't think you could hack it!
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<<Certainly, I have witnessed BA flight crews behaving quite badly in many a place from JFK to HKG and have even felt quite embarrassed to be British at the time.>>
<<Until the next lot gets caught and then you will have egg on your face.
Turning up as pissed as a fart two hours before take-off is not what I, or the general public, would describe as an "incident".>>
Does it fit your definition of CRM to refer to Flight Deck crew as 'lot'? I'm afraid I'm quite astonished at your remarks- you seem to derive great pleasure at the several incidents you refer to where people lost their jobs. No need to feel shame- you are not responsible. If hard working crews want to relax a bit and skylark- that is their business and you don't need to put on a beret and stripey tea-shirt and pretend you're French!
A loadmaster is a flying loader and certainly has no business on the Flight Deck, certainly as they seem to be so dead keen to snitch.
Let's leave out the personal abuse OK? This is not a 'game'. It is a serious job, and a very, very hard working one at that. Some people haven't been able to separate work from rest adequately (not surprisingly- the root of the problem lies in extreme fatigue and disrupted lifestyles). They have paid with their jobs sadly. I don't know (or care) what sort of flying existence you describe (from circa 1949?). It has as much relevance to today's aviation as hand held ADF sets! Let's put this utter boredom down now- most seem to agree BA 's measures are reasonable, so I will now leave you to pontificate on your bizarre ideas of aviation and crewing (circa 1949) on your own.
<<Until the next lot gets caught and then you will have egg on your face.
Turning up as pissed as a fart two hours before take-off is not what I, or the general public, would describe as an "incident".>>
Does it fit your definition of CRM to refer to Flight Deck crew as 'lot'? I'm afraid I'm quite astonished at your remarks- you seem to derive great pleasure at the several incidents you refer to where people lost their jobs. No need to feel shame- you are not responsible. If hard working crews want to relax a bit and skylark- that is their business and you don't need to put on a beret and stripey tea-shirt and pretend you're French!
A loadmaster is a flying loader and certainly has no business on the Flight Deck, certainly as they seem to be so dead keen to snitch.
Let's leave out the personal abuse OK? This is not a 'game'. It is a serious job, and a very, very hard working one at that. Some people haven't been able to separate work from rest adequately (not surprisingly- the root of the problem lies in extreme fatigue and disrupted lifestyles). They have paid with their jobs sadly. I don't know (or care) what sort of flying existence you describe (from circa 1949?). It has as much relevance to today's aviation as hand held ADF sets! Let's put this utter boredom down now- most seem to agree BA 's measures are reasonable, so I will now leave you to pontificate on your bizarre ideas of aviation and crewing (circa 1949) on your own.
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W.r.t. BAIID's..... prior to going our for a drink, inflate a balloon ( or some such container ) with non-boozy breath.
Having imbibed, take said balloon and propel its contents through the BAIID ( Nb. this might prove to be the tricky bit, i.e. when one's had a skin full ).... bingo, BAIID gives green light.... and off you go weaving yer merry way down the street !
One could even keep a small cylinder of compressed air in the trunk of the vehicle, for those times when you're too bladdered to get the balloon onto the BAIID at the first attempt.
I foresee a whole new industry out there.
Having imbibed, take said balloon and propel its contents through the BAIID ( Nb. this might prove to be the tricky bit, i.e. when one's had a skin full ).... bingo, BAIID gives green light.... and off you go weaving yer merry way down the street !
One could even keep a small cylinder of compressed air in the trunk of the vehicle, for those times when you're too bladdered to get the balloon onto the BAIID at the first attempt.
I foresee a whole new industry out there.
If random testing were introduced l would position my testing personnel downroute on longhaul flights for some positive results.That is where your cabin crew,particularly limp wristed ones will be over .02 or will test positive for substances.I can guarantee it. i would recommend Australian destinations,SFO and south america(sao paulo) for a start.
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Which Airports?
At the risk of changing track a little here, has anyone actually been randomly tested?
It hasn't happened to me personally but I certainly heard of guys being picked out and breathalysed at AMS on their way to the jet first thing in the morning.
Are there any other airports where this practice occurs?
Maybe BA should do a quick morning of testing everyone who gets on the bus... Not as a witchhunt but just to remind everyone that it 'could happen to you.' They certainly do it from time to time when looking for customs cheats.
It hasn't happened to me personally but I certainly heard of guys being picked out and breathalysed at AMS on their way to the jet first thing in the morning.
Are there any other airports where this practice occurs?
Maybe BA should do a quick morning of testing everyone who gets on the bus... Not as a witchhunt but just to remind everyone that it 'could happen to you.' They certainly do it from time to time when looking for customs cheats.
