Does Blacksod have an APV or PinS let down procedure?

Jim

The article above is very enlightening but I believe it relates to the specifications of the 92 brought in for the contract straight from Sikorsky? Of note is the fact that it had EuroNav in the front which is being taken as indication that all the Irish CG S92s are the same.

Question - were the 4 aircraft that were transferred from the CHC UK Interim SAR contract also updated to have EuroNav? When they served the contract in the UK they were not fitted with EuroNav in the front so there may be a difference in aircraft modification states across the fleet. The lack of mapping in the front of 4 of the 5 aircraft might mean slightly different procedures are required depending upon which aircraft the crews are in.

The article also shows the Sikorsky derived S92 was based at Sligo whereas the Dublin aircraft was from the UK contract and therefore may not have had EuroNav mapping in the cockpit? Speculation based on what the crews may have done using a mapping system that no one is sure was actually fitted will not help, but knowing for sure what the actual fit was may be of more help?

Is there any scenario where she wasn't in the cockpit ? Are there evac hatches in the windows ? Why didn't any of the epirbs trigger ?

The problem, with the debris on the rock, is it depends on where it's found & how heavy it is. Light debris could easily be blown on to the rock or washed up. Any heavy debris, above the strandline, must of either fallen there as part of a mechanical failure or as a result of a collision.

But to me the big question is why were they anywhere near the only obstacle ? From memory Blacksod would be a gentle, flat approach from the sea with no obstacles. I also wonder why you would fly so far out before turning in to approach ?

I watch these helicopters a lot - I live by the sea. I have seen them come over Black Head (around 300 metres) & descend into the bay. I have even seen them descend from the hover. So why go 10 miles out to sea ?

I don't think APV is suited to a helipad, whereas PinS would be. I very much doubt there is such a procedure, but suspect there may be future!

Guys suggesting casualty on the fishing vessel had a minor hand injury, not life or Death! If true, serious questions have to be asked as to why two helicopters were launched at night in poor weather conditions.

Coyote - it is very common for a casualty aboard a vessel who gets a SAR helo launched, not to be anything like as bad as anticipated.

One reason is that a land-based doctor is often consulted by radio/phone and they will always err on the side of caution since they can't see the casualty and make a real assessment for themselves.

The job I mentioned earlier - 250 Nm West of Ireland was for a crewmember with 'appendicitis' , when we turned up, he was standing on the deck quite happily with his suitcase in hand and, we subsequently discovered, didn't stay that long in hospital at Shannon.

Part of the job I'm afraid.

Yes, and also the other way around - injured person standing and smoking on arrival - doctor very angry due to this - X-ray later showed this guy actually could have died by twisting the head. This was not GB or Ireland, but sure that happens for you guys also.


To make the decision to launch or not to launch isn't always that easy.

Seemed our flights in really atrocious weather always turned out to be some fellow that missed his crew change from the Rig or who wanted be on scene when his next child was conceived! But that was in a location in West Africa working in the Oil Patch. Those were offset by the genuine flights where. people really needed transport to a medical facility even if there were no first rate Trauma Centers.

I agree, a single snapshot at DH of a solitary helipad without thousands of feet of lead-in lights is not ideal. The preferred LNAV (what you call PinS) is fine for approaches over flat terrain like Blacksod where the MDA would only be 50' higher than an APV (in Canada, EASA may be different). We had them in SE Asia, east coast Canada (Sable Island?), all privately commissioned by the helicopter operator and retrievable from the FMS database. They couldn't have cost much.

The financial cost of this tragedy will probably be close to 100m, so a consideration.

The presence of signicant amounts of wreckage or important parts definitely will be of use in the investigation 's efforts to determine what happened.

There are many ways such wreckage could come to rest as it did...but examination of the pieces and the sequence in which they are positioned along the track of the aircraft will tell the story. Damage to the pieces can also point to a cause.

A very close examination of Blackrock should uncover signs of contact if that is what happened.

Recovery of the CVR and Data Recorder will yield the best account hopefully!

I've looked but can't locate any such reference. Can you provide a link or message number?

I believe it was sourced to one of the papers from Mr. Whyte.

Hi everyone, I've been following the last 10 or so pages on this. Very sad what happened. RIP.

Regarding the wreckage found on Blackrock, I saw a post on a different forum regarding it. I don't think a lot of people noticed the post. I am just quoting and not sure how accurate the information is.

"the wreckage, part of the tail, was found in the island in the area between the lighthouse and the adjoining building"

Perhaps they got it from Trump.
I do not like the "I heard XXXX but can't say where or from whom"
If you can't name a credible source please don't post.
Especially in cases such as this one.
Just my opinion.

Thanks. I was searching for a link, but I see all we have is a couple of "I've heard...." statements without even a source being quoted.

I hear lots of rumours in crewrooms, most of which turns out to be complete bo**ocks :}.

Hopefully things will become clearer sooner rather than later. :ok:

Looking at the LKP on the larger scale map of post #115, it appears to be on the N side of Blackrock. Also the pic in post #140 shows the helipad to be on the N side of the lighthouse - which would be consistent with the turn NW then turn ESE to approach the helipad. The weather reports from the nearest stations suggest that conditions around Blackrock would have been a cloud base around 200-300 ft with visibility reduced in RA/DZ and a SW'ly wind around 20kt. As a meteorologist, a stable SW'ly airstream of that strength passing over an obstacle such as Blackrock would have produced a severe downdraft on the N side of the rock (like a 'hydraulic jump' airflow) - in such situations I've known of 10 metre yachts to be flattened or even dis-masted. So if they were below the 300ft summit of the rock (perhaps with the intention of climbing to approach the helipad IFR in cloud) the downdraught conditions below the cloud base on the N side of Blackrock could well have been very difficult even for a S92.

Why would they be trying to land at Blackrock if the stated destination of Blacksod was at near sea level on flat ground?

Disappointing to see the crackpot theories starting to appear. I guess this is the vacuum being filled.

When I check my vacuum at home, it is usually full of rubbish.

From the g/s and a/s information we have, they clearly weren't!

The downdraft off the mountain is an interesting theory, I seem to remember from my (Many years ago) college weather classes, that the disturbance can be higher than the object itself as well. Even if they had the lack of visibility under control, dealing with that kind of sudden and local turbulence could easily add additional workload. That looks to be like a formidable island from the sea perspective, but you add a mystery about the air.

Final groundspeed and Track?
 

Has the final speed approaching blackrock been clairified as 90kts?On marinetraffic
the final transmission from Rescue 116
gives a heading of 098 degrees and a groundspeed of only 9kts
See attached image which also shows the exact final
position in relation to Blackrock island.
At Blacksod while approaching from the west one would need to letdown 50m before the lighthouse.Attempting the same at blackrock would quickly lead to danger as when heading on the same track one would encounter steep terrain before the lighthouse.If there were clouds as reported at 300ft this would be challenging.The AIS data does suggest controlled flight until the final position shown.

Attachment 1938

Triskelle raises an interesting point.....just what magnitude of downdraft could be experienced at Blackrock with a 20 Knot Southwesterly Wind blowing?

How high above Blackrock could that down flow of air be encountered?

If the Aircraft was on some sort of FMS SAR mode tracking inbound towards Blacksod.....could the aircraft have lost height as it was tracking overhead Blackrock and the crew not have time to counter the ROD produced by the down draft?

Yes.....I know.....just "what iffing it" a bit in following up on his comment.

I know from experience a 45 Knot Wind over an offshore platform can produce some really sporty turbulence on the down wind side......20 Knots seemed to be just some bumps and wiggles.

20 kts rotoring over a descending helicopter at little or no airspeed would cause problems. However it would do very little to a large helicopter at cruise speed.
Oneperev, what you are describing is Mountain Waves.

I wouldn't even be concerned about the machine possibly getting in the lee of a rock in a 20 kt wind. If that helicopter cannot handle those conditions, then they have one precious little puppy on their hands, that shouldn't be used in anything but clear blue days. Now i don't think is the case, but that is where this convo is heading.

And when the knives come out for me, actually yes i do fly, and have just recently come off a job operating fully loaded, in the lee of a 2000' hill, in 32 kt gusting 65, along with smoke mixed in, and we were required to do relatively precise drops on fires to save houses. There were a number of helicopters doing it, from 120's, 350, 355, BK and UH1's all on the fire, and they all handled it, and I'm sure that a 92 would be able to handle those conditions as well.

Look at the shape of Blackrock and the fact it is isolated - the wind will blow around it with only a small amount of turbulence at the top - an approach even 15 degrees out of wind would avoid that turbulence and any downdraughting would be absolutely minimal.

I don't really agree with the downdraft theory. The island is only 400 metres long at its longest part and only max 82 metres high, so minimal scope for a downdraft. That final AIS fix, showing it on the westerly point of the island at 9 knots (but we don't know at what altitude), and where the search is happening 60 metres to the east of the island (so both points about 500 metres apart), with reports of debris on the island, don't suggest a downdraft issue. At that speed and with the distance between the two points so far it just doesn't add up for me. And it doesn't explain why they said they were on their final approach to BlackSOD, 10 NM to the east.

I can't see your image on my phone, but the image I posted previously clearly shows 098 at 90 kts.

Yes, your image shows it at 90 knots but a little further west of the island than minimaman's one.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/592162-sar-s-92-missing-ireland-6.html#post9708155

That last position would appear to be about that of the water entry so the heading and speed may well be correct - as to whether it was controlled entry or not we will find out later.

No, water entry would appear to be EAST of the island. The dive area is 60 metres east of the island.

The commander of the LE Eithne Irish Naval vessel was on radio this morning. Tomorrow will give them a window for diving. Listen to him here

OK, well that is even more confusing.

On Sunday the two small crafts, Geo and An Gearoidin (see attached jpg), were concentrating on the south east area just off the island.

When you look at the last position with the projected path turned on, its almost in line with the helipad on the Open Street Map overlay. Which makes no sense...

Still very strange as my image was if the last remaining position on the marine map. Curious!

It still appears from the AIS data that the heli approached blackrock from the west tracking east with a track of 098 degrees as previously shown.It may have clipped the lighthouse outbuildings or something above the westerly cliff,at this point with severe loss of controlability from a compromised aircraft theoretically the heli could have ended up ditching anywhere around the islands perimeter?however the westerly side would have been the more obvious choice given the laws of physics.i guess all will be known when the fdr and cvr are retrieved the whole thing is very sad especially when these great pros saved so many people themselves.

Any idea how deep the water is in the search area?

In or around 40 meters I believe.

Has anyone listened to live atc for the hours after R116 went missing? At around 0250am R118 and R115 start searching the BlackSOD bay area. If only they had have known R116's last known position on AIS they could have started searching there instead of the wrong area and possibly have found the captain in the water sooner. I'm still listening to it at present. Does anyone know where they found the captain in the water? Was it close to BlackROCK?

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN2-Mar-14-2017-0230Z.mp3

around the rock it's in the 30-50m region

Here is the sea depth, in metres. From Vesselfinder.com

http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php...1&d=1490021446