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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9716390)
Unlikely to be heading for the boat since R118 was doing that plus they had already declared they were refuelling at Blacksod before comtinuing on any tasking.
If they had no NVD it is more likely they were using a legacy profile from S61 days to get to Blacksod - if this meant using Blackrock as a visual marker to confirm they were clear of any other terrain then it sort of makes sense but still doesn't explain how they came to hit the rock. |
To regain VMC? helicrazi - yes it does seem a complicated way to do it but I guess they had their reasons. It is disappointing that the introduction of NVD has taken so long though. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9716448)
Yes, it would seem so.
helicrazi - yes it does seem a complicated way to do it but I guess they had their reasons. It is disappointing that the introduction of NVD has taken so long though. |
Originally Posted by helicrazi
(Post 9716414)
It must be my simplistic brain, but why wouldn't you just set up a way point out in sea and track in, rather than heading for a bit of rock miles away to potentially get visible with said bit of rock, only to lose it behind you as you head for land, possible losing both landmark references, at least with letting down offshore using radar and taws you can track in direct as required at low level?
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Originally Posted by smcc63
(Post 9716282)
It had flotation system, but designed for specific decent and speed rates
The floats are not designed to absorb the force of water impact and must only be deployed after water entry. When the flotation system is armed, the floats will automatically deploy via the immersion switch or manually deploy via the collective mounted FLOAT switch. The pilot should manually deploy the floats immediately after water entry. The ELT is self-activated by a crash force of 12 Gs. |
HeliOffshore InfoShare
Quote:
Cause. The cause of this accident is unknown at this stage, and all aspects will be investigated, including weather, human factors, and technical issues. Initial examination of the technical records of the aircraft have not identified any anomalies and the Health & Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) readings taken from the previous flight, show no irregularities – including in the specific area of the Tail Rotor Pitch Change Shaft (TRPCS) bearing. |
Originally Posted by malabo
(Post 9715878)
Us Canadians can't seem to fly without a map Garmin on the panel, but the 92 had lots of mapping capability. Rear crew with their detailed maps showing own position and communicating to the front. EGPWS will paint shorelines and obstacles, so will radar, RadAlts plus GPS altitude if required, user waypoints can be defined as airports and will show up on the flightplan screen (almost Garmin-like), and finally the iPads with any number of apps that map. JeppFD strangely enough shows Blackrock but with an elevation of only 46' - anybody else confirm?
I am convinced there was a mix up between Blackrock and Blacksod. If you look at Wikipedia Lighthouses of Ireland page, the Location coordinates for both lighthouses show Blacksod Bay. It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one. |
Originally Posted by Vibetribe
(Post 9716696)
Quote:
Cause. The cause of this accident is unknown at this stage, and all aspects will be investigated, including weather, human factors, and technical issues. Initial examination of the technical records of the aircraft have not identified any anomalies and the Health & Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) readings taken from the previous flight, show no irregularities – including in the specific area of the Tail Rotor Pitch Change Shaft (TRPCS) bearing. |
Originally Posted by agirl
(Post 9716838)
The elevation of 46' is more like the elevation of Blacksod which is 43'.
I am convinced there was a mix up between Blackrock and Blacksod. If you look at Wikipedia Lighthouses of Ireland page, the Location coordinates for both lighthouses show Blacksod Bay. It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one. These are monitored flights, are they not? |
Originally Posted by Fullofexcuses01
(Post 9716842)
How do you know this information? Is it confirmed by chc or the Coast Guard? Please share
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It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one. Very unlikely to just mix up the lighthouses. |
Originally Posted by pfm1000
(Post 9713789)
Plus it makes no sense they would land at Blackrock. It's uninhabited and there's no fuel. the lighthouse is solar powered.
There's a contract in place between Irish lights who operate the lighthouses and the coast guard to provide helipad and refuelling services on the western seaboard at the manned lighthouses at Blacksod and Castletownbere. i.e. they would not choose Blackrock. Edit: Annex 12A of this document includes a site plan for Blacksod helipad. http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/fi...010-signed.pdf It seems that there is a sparsity of revealed comms for this operation. Surely there has been more communication than the Dublin departure ATC tape and the "Landing Blacksod" snippet? Would anyone have the AIS track for R115? Had it gone out to the ship, or where was it? |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9716921)
They will have had the Landing site at Blacksod as a waypoint since it is a well-used refuel point.
The skies are desolately quiet without the crew of Rescue 116 - Independent.ie Not necessarily the same crews, of course. |
Rescue 118 now landing at Blacksod after flying to Dublin to collect some equipment.
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly
(Post 9715007)
The words "It's a possibility" were referring to whether they needed to go out to the boat. They were not used in reference to landing at/on Blacksod helipad.
As pointed out, they need to play it by ear to some extent as things evolve. The lack of contact with R118 was obviously causing them to consider their options. Land the chopper, refuel it and make a plan of action. In that scenario we would have the Shannon convo taking place east of Blackrock, the decision to turn back resulting in the teardrop track, and then...? Would they have launched direct the ship without needing a fuel stop, or would the fuel stop have been necessary with them considering that the status of R118 was uncertain and they would need full fuel to continue out to sea? |
Range
Originally Posted by cncpc
(Post 9717000)
Does anyone know the co-ordinates of where this boat was? Is it possible that the track we see from Dublin was a direct track to where the rescue was to take place? There is then the conversation where R116 says their plan is not to go to the ship, but it is a possibility. At that time there were com problems with R118, which seems to be some distance ahead of R116, who may not have known whether they might in fact have to go all the way out. If they remained unsure of what R118 was doing, they may have decided to go to Blacksod for fuel if standing top cover at the ship was still a possibility.
In that scenario we would have the Shannon convo taking place east of Blackrock, the decision to turn back resulting in the teardrop track, and then...? Would they have launched direct the ship without needing a fuel stop, or would the fuel stop have been necessary with them considering that the status of R118 was uncertain and they would need full fuel to continue out to sea? Range is 467 nm (865 km) with normal fuel Range is 802 nm (1,485 km) with two 210‐gallon internal aux tanks |
I believe on the Dublin ATC R116 took off heavy and also refused a vertical take off because of that.
At Black Sod Bay, the Le Samuel Beckett is now the lead ship. |
Also worthy of consideration is the "early" landing call to ATC by 116.....as they were some distance from ATC's location they may have made the "Landing Blacksod!" call while they were still high enough to have reliable comms with ATC.
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Prime Time at 9.30pm on RTE1 tv say they have new information about the collision avoidance system on Rescue 116, Prime Time is a current affairs programme it can be watched on your laptop through the RTE player, go to rte.ie/player
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Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9717073)
I believe on the Dublin ATC R116 took off heavy and also refused a vertical take off because of that.
At Black Sod Bay, the Le Samuel Beckett is now the lead ship. |
Originally Posted by Eyesee
(Post 9717018)
Just a thought !! Descending through 4000ft in marginal weather towards blacksod lighthouse in the black of night low cloud mist light rain on instruments and all going to plan...in the distance beam of light breaking through the cloud from the lighthouse (blackrock) thinking they are home start to concentrate on the approach and just take the eye of nav instruments as they becoming visual with their destination. .I've done it before in a fixed wing flying to harverard west in Wales 9nm out visual with the airport had been so paticular all the way across the water checking double checking dme vor GPS the lot ..seeing the airport in front of me took my eye off everything and ended up on finals for st David's military I'm not the first for this to happen ,commercial flights have done it too at other destinations...if I had of even glanced at my GPS dme I would of noticed immediately
Very sad to all involved hope they are recovered soon I take it you mean Haverfordwest? ;) |
First dives are planned from dawn on Friday on the wreckage of Rescue 116 off the north Mayo coast as the search continues for three missing Irish Coast Guard helicopter airmen. The Navy divers working in pairs will have an eight-minute limit on the seabed |
"Final reported altitude 220 ft".
"EGPWS database did not contain Blackrock". This was just reported on PrimeTime on RTE television. |
It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..
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Re "prime Time" at 220 feet approaching Blackrock,with 9nm to reach blacksod , doesn't add up
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly
(Post 9717171)
It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..
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Originally Posted by helicrazi
(Post 9717173)
Still should have shown up on the wx radar? That is shocking though, gobsmacked it wasn't in the database, sends shivers...
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly
(Post 9717181)
I'm not sure how terrain shows up on weather radar? I'm sure its returns must be different to those of water droplets, so if the radar is tuned to water is it possible that it may not show up terrain?
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Originally Posted by tenbyboy
(Post 9717149)
@Eyesee
I take it you mean Haverfordwest? ;) |
Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.
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Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 9717186)
Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly
(Post 9717208)
I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.
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Originally Posted by henra
(Post 9717211)
Why should it? Cumulu Granitus should give a very solid return, especially if they were below crest height (which would be the case at 220ft).
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly
(Post 9717216)
Because it would be scanning the sea surface just in front of the aircraft and not picking up distant targets.
Somehow still unexplicable and very likely a very unfortunate chain of events/circumstances. Blackrock not potentially being in the EGPWS DB probably being one important factor |
I do wish so many idiots would stop posting utter rubbish on this thread until we know what really happened. Even in the 1970s the weather radar we had would have picked up something like Blackrock even in Wx mode
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What caused the crash of Rescue 116? Katie Hannon has new information on the operation of the system designed to give the crew a final warning of an obstacle in their flight-path. (may need Irish IP/proxy to view) |
Just because Blackrock was not in R116's EGPWS database presumably that doesn't necessarily mean the crew did not know about it? The notion that they were therefore unaware of it doesn't fully explain things to me. If you didn't know about Blackrock (and assumed it was open sea) would you still pick that point to do a let down? And to 220ft? It is still a long way from Blacksod, and also not in the middle of open sea to the southeast. Furthermore if one assumes that they did pick that fairly random point, why do a tear drop pattern to return right to it after the first approach? But more importantly this location doesn't look a great one to me to use for a low level straight in approach over sea to Blacksod - there are uninhabited (unlit) islands pretty much en route to cross, 3 miles from Blacksod.
So just because Blackrock wasn't in the EGPWS database could it still have been in in the FMS database? If not, could they have been aware of Blackrock from charts and entered the coordinates manually in the nav database? And presumably, given a fairly long direct track to it, the coordinates were inputted to navigate to that point, even if they thought it was open sea not Blackrock. And finally, was Blackrock shown on the moving map display that they were presumably monitoring? For example, it is on a 1:500,000 moving map I use. |
Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9717267)
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10703638/
(may need Irish IP/proxy to view) Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm. Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts. |
Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9717283)
Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'
Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm. Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts. |
Forgive me, a little off thread, but posted to address a statement made earlier by malabo.
I don't buy the "there but for the grace of god, everyone messes up sometime, etc" arguments. Operations procedures are meant to be boilerplate, to tolerate the "human errors" that can creep in. Precis Checklists and monitoring are two essential defenses against equipment failures and pilot errors. Problems with checklist use and pilots’ failures to monitor adequately have a long history in aviation accidents. This study was conducted to explore why checklists and monitoring sometimes fail to catch errors and equipment malfunctions as intended. Flight crew procedures were observed from the cockpit jumpseat during normal airline operations in order to: 1) collect data on monitoring and checklist use in cockpit operations in typical flight conditions; 2) provide a plausible cognitive account of why deviations from formal checklist and monitoring procedures sometimes occur; 3) lay a foundation for identifying ways to reduce vulnerability to inadvertent checklist and monitoring errors; 4) compare checklist and monitoring execution in normal flights with performance issues uncovered in accident investigations; and 5) suggest ways to improve the effectiveness of checklists and monitoring. Cognitive explanations for deviations from prescribed procedures are provided, along with suggestions for countermeasures for vulnerability to error. malabo, you must be management given your statement. |
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