|
Originally Posted by HeliComparator
(Post 9726722)
I thought we were? If it transpires that it was crew error, would you rather it was blamed on that specific crew, or that they were the victims of the culture, custom and practice of SAR?
You're trolling. If you've never done SAR it's unlikely that you'll ever appreciate how crews carry out their dynamic risk assessments. The 'blame' options you refer to are rarely so binary. What was asked of this crew should have been well within the capabilities of an experienced SAR crew. How they ended up hitting that rock with what we have to assume was a serviceable radar is beyond me. Maybe some CVR clues will feature in a preliminary report. |
Perhaps they did see land on the radar, and it didn't raise any questions because if they thought they were at Blacksod they would be expecting to see land on the radar.
In the cold light of day I'm sure we could discuss at length the shape of the coast etc, but at that time of the morning they may not have been quite so assiduous. Edited to add: as stated in the post above, the CVR will hopefully shed some light. |
This morning Navy divers succeded in attaching a lifting harness to the fuselage of Rescue 116, they hope to have it raised to the surface this Evening ,it will be a slow process due to the weather on scene with force 5 to 6 wind
|
Originally Posted by obnoxio f*ckwit
(Post 9727259)
Perhaps they did see land on the radar, and it didn't raise any questions because if they thought they were at Blacksod they would be expecting to see land on the radar.
|
Originally Posted by The SAR RC
(Post 9727238)
HC
You're trolling. If you've never done SAR it's unlikely that you'll ever appreciate how crews carry out their dynamic risk assessments. The 'blame' options you refer to are rarely so binary. What was asked of this crew should have been well within the capabilities of an experienced SAR crew. How they ended up hitting that rock with what we have to assume was a serviceable radar is beyond me. Maybe some CVR clues will feature in a preliminary report. |
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727340)
I have it on good information that there was no mix up between Blacksod and Blackrock and that the flight over/beyond/around blackrock was standard approach to Blacksod.
Someone touched on it earlier, the original flight track looks like it may have planned to go straight to the fishing vessel, they then decided to refuel at Blacksod and in doing so looped back, approached Blackrock from the West in order to use it for approach to Blacksod. All makes sense to me, what doesn't make sense is an experienced crew simply getting mixed up between Blacksod and Blackrock or the locations being entered wrong in the FMS. Touching on the update released. I wonder if they did get a HUMS download from the actual accident flight or whether they are referring to the flight previous. I have a feeling the S92 system is the same as the Airbus system where the card session needs closing (by way of Engines powering down) For example, I'm certain if a HUMS card is removed from the card slot mid flight, there wouldn't be any data on it. They were not able to download the EC225 or indeed the AS332L2 accident data, only the data from the flight previous. I would also imagine that if they did manage to somehow get the HUMS data downloaded, there would be huge jumps in the data from the impact with blackrock to the loss of the tail and the time it took to strike the water, all that would have been recorded on the graphs. Certainly pointing towards a CFIT from their update though. |
Originally Posted by HeliComparator
(Post 9727343)
I'm not sure that the HUMS data is that relevant if the FDR shows that the helicopter's flight path was as expected for the control inputs.
|
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727340)
I have it on good information that there was no mix up between Blacksod and Blackrock and that the flight over/beyond/around blackrock was standard approach to Blacksod.
|
I am told that 92 HUMS data is downloadable regardless, unlike the reported shortfall of other HUMS systems. Also, the 92 HUMS is said to have hundreds of parameters, including those normally part of the crash recorder data stream, so much of the aircraft activity besides system health is probably available as duplicate data.
One question: Is it standard practice to have no formal instrument approach like LPV or GPS to standard refuel heliports in Ireland or elsewhere? Do aircraft normally fly ad hoc instrument procedures in near zero zero conditions (other than overwater SAR rescue approaches)? And more to the point, will they in the future? |
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727422)
Admittedly I've never used the new S92 SGBA HUMS system although was experienced with the old EuroHUMS and MPGS/M'arms.
Quite a lot of reports of late flights out of Aberdeen recently due to HUMS test flight requirements due to no data captures though (S92). I presume it was similar to the Airbus systems where no closure of the card meant no download. Regardless, they may or may not be reporting the status from the accident flight, whether they have the card or not and whether it's in any fit state to be downloaded. They haven't lifted the wreckage yet, only cut the pilot free, so unless the diving team retrieved the card along with the body then I presume it would still be with the wreckage. Pfm1000, that's the golden question. Along with airspeed if the last data track recordings are accurate. |
I am thinking the S-92 Hums tracks 420 items..... or has the capability to do so.
|
Originally Posted by rjsquirrel
(Post 9727411)
I am told that 92 HUMS data is downloadable regardless, unlike the reported shortfall of other HUMS systems. Also, the 92 HUMS is said to have hundreds of parameters, including those normally part of the crash recorder data stream, so much of the aircraft activity besides system health is probably available as duplicate data.
|
Originally Posted by HeliComparator
(Post 9727449)
Coincidentally an ex-colleague engineer pitched up at the gliding club on Friday and I took him for a flight in my glider. We discussed the vulnerability of having a near-all-S92 fleet, and one of the things he volunteered was the flakiness of the S92 HUMS system. Lots of delayed morning departures because an air test was required because the system had failed to acquire the necessary parameters during the previous day's flying. So I wouldn't crow about it too much. It may be capable of recording lots of stuff but that is only useful if it actually does record it!
|
Originally Posted by Apate
(Post 9727457)
Must be a Bristow problem, as that's not something the other two operators are experiencing :E
Anyway, do the other operators bother that much about HUMS data? (Ouch!) |
HC....just once I would like to see you leave off the gratuitous bull**** and simply discuss a technical issue in a professional manner?
At some point you must get over your Butt Hurt over the grounding of the 225 after the two catastrophic Main Gear Box failures. Put on your Big Boy Y-fronts and get over it! |
HC
Seriously though, the other two operators are not having issues with S92 HUMS downloads. They are both doing things correctly and thoroughly, so if Bristow are having issues it is obviously an internal problem. Of course you are free to discount my statement, as we all know Bristow and the 225 are the only "gods" in town :ugh: |
R116 wreckage lifted. Still no trace of two missing crew members. |
Lets hope they find the 2 remaining crew members quickly so they can be laid to rest.
|
Mitchaa
I'm really struggling to think why a standard approach to Blacksod would be via Blackrock, as you say you think happened. If it was good VFR you'd not need the Blackrock light as you'd have Blacksod. And if you were IFR why choose a rock to pass over that was 300ft higher than anything else within several miles? It's not as if it had a VOR or NDB on it. Seems a bit of a stretch to think it was perhaps because you could identify it on radar better than anywhere closer. And then surely backed up GPS would be more reliable anyway? Ideas - anyone? |
Originally Posted by Apate
(Post 9727499)
HC
Seriously though, the other two operators are not having issues with S92 HUMS downloads. They are both doing things correctly and thoroughly, so if Bristow are having issues it is obviously an internal problem. Of course you are free to discount my statement, as we all know Bristow and the 225 are the only "gods" in town :ugh: |
Originally Posted by rotorspeed
(Post 9727536)
Mitchaa
I'm really struggling to think why a standard approach to Blacksod would be via Blackrock, as you say you think happened. If it was good VFR you'd not need the Blackrock light as you'd have Blacksod. And if you were IFR why choose a rock to pass over that was 300ft higher than anything else within several miles? It's not as if it had a VOR or NDB on it. Seems a bit of a stretch to think it was perhaps because you could identify it on radar better than anywhere closer. And then surely backed up GPS would be more reliable anyway? Ideas - anyone? |
The fuselage has now been lifted and is on board the Granuaille. No sign of the missing crew.
Wreckage of Coast Guard helicopter R116 lifted from sea |
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727569)
HC, from what I hear from from a few friends of mine, not just a Bristows issue, quite a few delayed flights being reported from the hummingbirds with HUMS test flights being the reason.
Bristows and Scotia use the new SGBA software and as far as I'm aware, Babcock use the old software (and limited to 3FH downloads) - There may be a few bugs in the new Software if it's 2 out of the 3 that are having problems with HUMS delays. |
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727569)
HC, from what I hear from from a few friends of mine, not just a Bristows issue, quite a few delayed flights being reported from the hummingbirds with HUMS test flights being the reason.
Bristows and Scotia use the new SGBA software and as far as I'm aware, Babcock use the old software (and limited to 3FH downloads) - There may be a few bugs in the new Software if it's 2 out of the 3 that are having problems with HUMS delays. |
With SGBA and a temperature plug you've got 10 hours. I cannot believe anyone on the North Sea doesn't have both by now.
|
Originally Posted by Sanus
(Post 9727580)
With SGBA and a temperature plug you've got 10 hours. I cannot believe anyone on the North Sea doesn't have both by now.
|
Originally Posted by Mitchaa
(Post 9727584)
Interesting to know Sanus, i wasn't aware of that.
To be fair, 6FH in the North Sea environment is probably enough anyway, I can't think of any occasions where the aircraft would need more than 6FH between downloads? |
Just to clarify. SGBA and temp plug give you 10hrs max between TRPCS visual (borescope) inspections but do not lift the 6hr HUMS download requirement.
|
Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9727558)
If you look at past tracks of R118 to Blacksod, maybe it will indicate a standard approach.
|
Originally Posted by cncpc
(Post 9727662)
Where do you find those past tracks?
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...:SAR_250002902 ‘Deep disappointment’ at failure to find missing Rescue 116 airmen |
The wreckage of the Irish Coast Guard helicopter which crashed last month has been recovered from the sea.
Dive teams still haven't managed to locate the two missing crew members, Ciaran Smith and Paul Ormsby, but searchers say they won't give up. The Irish Coast Guard's Gerard O'Flynn says the fuselage from Rescue 116 has now been lifted on board the Irish Lights' vessel the Granuaile. that was picked up by a tug, by a company based in Bere Island in Cork. They were working with us over the last day or two. "It's been transferred onto the Granuaile and is now in the custody of the Air Accident Investigation Unit and they will determine it's final location to facilitate their own investigation," he said. Addressing the media after last night's operation, Jurgen Whyte from the Air Accident Investigation Unit said lifting the wreckage was a difficult and hazardous operation, which required special skills. "What we did actually retrieve is the rotor head, the main gearbox, one engine, and associated wreckage around that. "It was what we expected to lift. The lifting was a really extreme and hazardous environment and I really have to compliment all the people that were involved," he said http://www.breakingnews.ie/remote/me...00&s=bn-784183 The Granuaile arrives back into Blacksod, Co. Mayo, Ireland, with wreckage from Coastguard helicopter Rescue 116 onboard. Photo: Brian Lawless/PA Wire |
Track and altitude
Red5ive, track is depicted on post #105.
For me, outbound track is commensurate with an attempted let-down around Blackrock. I would go with that rather than a turnback from a track out to the vessel. Haven't seen anyone come back with info on vessel location either. Mitchaa, I haven't seen altitudes published, what is your source? |
What is the current status of the irish SAR system? Up to this sad event there were 4 bases with 5 helicopter, so one spare aircraft. Will they get another S92 in short notice to cope for AOG?
skadi |
Originally Posted by Loquatious
(Post 9728105)
Red5ive, track is depicted on post #105.
For me, outbound track is commensurate with an attempted let-down around Blackrock. I would go with that rather than a turnback from a track out to the vessel. Haven't seen anyone come back with info on vessel location either. |
There will be no shortage of secondhand high spec SAR aircraft in a nearby territory during the next 16 months.
|
Ah yes, isn't one flight having to give up S-92 in favour of the contracted AW189?
|
Two flights.
Two AW139 from CHC at Lee stood down a few days ago. Another from Portland shortly. In the Bristow stand-in fleet there are four S-92A and four A139. In some cases there will be a bit of musical chairs going on internally. Also, none of this is really news, so some in the industry may have had their eye on these for a while. I would still expect these changes to generate opportunities for a fleet seeking to fill a gap. |
Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9728145)
cncpc was looking for the Blacksod approach that they normally do.
At some point, it is apparent that neither R116 or Shannon relay attempts can raise R118 and the intention then becomes to land at Blacksod. There seems to be some evidence that that convo with Shannon took place at some time from crossing the Achill shore outbound to around Blackrock. Followed by the change in plan to go in and fuel at Blacksod, and the turn. At that same point, there is a reprogramming of the FMS. Assuming an approach briefing. Or they never intended to go direct the ship, and that was the approach to Blacksod. I'm one of those who find it hard to comprehend why an approach with a letdown would have a 300 foot rock in it at all, given that there was a whole ocean out there with nothing to hit. The last heading does seem to point pretty well into the middle of Blacksod Bay. Hopefully the CVR will clarify most of this. |
The missing crew members is awful news for their families. I wonder if Mark tried to keep some minimum of control whilst ordering the others to jump clear.
Here in Ireland the crew and their families remain very much in everybody's thoughts. |
Originally Posted by PC767
(Post 9729156)
...I wonder if Mark tried to keep some minimum of control whilst ordering the others to jump clear..
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 08:25. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.