I'm not going to get in heated argument here there is a time and place for this, my point was getting the job done as quickly as possible with the right tools for the recovery of R116 but it is taking far too long after 3 weeks were still no nearer in the recovery of the wreckage, there may will be evidence on the wreckage the longer it stay's done there the more quickly it is going to disappear, I totally agree with Maclovin here with regards to Navy divers and Commercial divers and fully support him on this subject, there is a time. And place for Navy divers they are not experts in recovering downed helicopters and this is not the time for them at the moment, Commercial divers have recovered many downed helicopters in the North Sea and of the coast of Sumburgh where the environment was as challenging and hostile with rocky surfaces and it did not take 3 weeks to recover. As far as I'm aware there are far more capable DSV's in the offshore industry capable of lifting R116 in far more efficient time with the right tools for the job, time is running out and families patience must be running out the longer they wait.

Now the news has come that there is a further delay in the recovery operation earliest the weekend.

From my post 295

Question - were the 4 aircraft that were transferred from the CHC UK Interim SAR contract also updated to have EuroNav? When they served the contract in the UK they were not fitted with EuroNav in the front so there may be a difference in aircraft modification states across the fleet. The lack of mapping in the front of 4 of the 5 aircraft might mean slightly different procedures are required depending upon which aircraft the crews are in.

There has been no reply and I can understand the reason why Roscoe 1.

The RTE article that mentions the lack of Blackrock in the EGPWS, also claims the aircraft were fitted with Euronav in the front? But I believe they were just recycling the same information from the article about the kit on the one S92A that came direct from Sikorsky for the contract (they even use the same pictures). Of course the 4 ex Interim SAR S92As from the UK could have been modified post export to Ireland, but if not then they did not have digital mapping in the cockpit.

I hear what you are saying about the tides. But tides come and go, and there will be a period every day when there is no tidal current. With a sat diver you can be sure the diver is ready to work at this exact time, even if he has to break off when the tide is running at max. So there is very little risk of him missing a dive because the current is slack but the waves high. No disrespect to the Naval divers, but they are totally hamstrung by using air diving techniques at this water depth.

Especially if the weather deteriorates further.

Time it took to discover crash site is another issue that maybe should be revisited.

Unless the Tide thing is different in Ireland than the rest of the World....that should be "periods".

I have to say that I agree with pumaboy & Red5ive, time is of the essence here. Must be horrible & frustrating for the families waiting so long for the remaining 2 crewman to be found for closure & ultimately the reason behind the crash.

Ocean Challenger tug has left Castletownbere to assist in recovery of #Rescue116 wreckage

The 35 metre Ocean Challenger tug, operated by Bere Island based salvage experts Atlantic Towage & Marine, has departed Castletownbere Harbour tonight bound for Blacksod Bay to assist in the operation to recover the main wreckage of Rescue 116 and according to Marine Traffic is expected on scene over the weekend to join the Naval Diving Team currently on site..

Search co-ordinators have indicated that they now plan to lift the wreckage to the surface using the Ocean Challenger and other vessels on scene over the weekend when swells ease.

Naval Service divers will assist in the effort, which will allow for the inspection of an area below the helicopter that has been inaccessible since the crash over two weeks ago.

Plans to move the wreckage of Coast Guard Rescue Helicopter 116 using inflatable lifting bags were abandoned in recent days due to the large swell conditions at sea.

The mid sized tug will be positioned directly above the site, so the five-tonne wreckage can be taken from the water from a depth of 40 metres.

In 2014 Atlantic Towage & Marine successfully retrieved the 4 tonne keel of the yacht Rambler 100 from a depth of 75 metres off the Fastnet Rock in similar conditions to the Rescue 116 accident site at Blackrock island..

"Maclovin, The incident you refer to earlier in 2009 was actually about 10 miles off the coast rather than at the Miller, I think if my memory is correct the vessel involved in recovery was the same that was only a couple of miles away and witnessed the incident as it happened? Not much issue with swell, current and fairly shallow waters so was a much easier job."

Simfly, the point I'm trying to make, is that sat divers should be used here instead of air divers precisely BECAUSE the conditions at blackrock are so difficult. Sat divers can work safely in much worse weather and tide conditions than surface divers on air, and for much longer.
Incidentally the helicopter crash in 2009 was witnessed by the crew of a supply boat which went straight to the scene to search for survivors. The DSV Bibby Topaz was mobilised subsequently from the forties field for the recovery. Apologies to all for the drift.

I Totally agree Maclovin, in the 2009 accident the Super Puma was witnessed by the crew of a Norwegian PSV Normand Aurora and recovered by the DSV Bobby Topaz with DP2 built in 2004 purpose built for heavy construction offshore, I think it is about time now to bring in the experts it is taking to long as the vessel involved at the moment the Granuaille is 18 years old and has only DP 1 she does have a mon pool for diving operations and is not equipped to carry this operation out I also agree with Maclovin with regards to Sat Divers can work at longer periods in a safer condition and are used to working at deeper depths with changing currents, the authorities should now be looking to draft much more capable equipment to recover the R116 and the 2 missing crews if they are still in in the wreckage, the operation is taking to long and is also disrespectful for the families of the missing crews members, there is also the question if R116 did suffer a technical fault then what about the remaining S-92's that are still flying this has to be solved quickly as the longer the airframe remains in the water then any evidence of technical fault that was there may not there due to salt water corrosion and tidal currents.

Snakepit,
Thanks. I guess I just need to wait and see what the resolution of this accident is. Speculation is wrought with red herrings most of the time. Still, it is nearly impossible to resist if you are in any way close to the possibility of being an a similar scenario. My guess is that unless they find clear evidence of a mechanical failure, we will never know the details of exactly how these people lost their lives. We will only have contributing factors that when added up put them in that space at that time. Please push for digital map displays and NVGs. More folks have probably lost their lives for lack of these than for not doing a good preflight inspection. Money is no object if you insist.

They aren't in the wreckage.

Has that been acknowledged, Red5?

Frustrating as it may be to those seeking answers, this is a recovery operation, not a rescue. The data recorders have been recovered which should go a long way to determining the cause.

While recovery of the remainder of the wreckage and/or casualties is highly desireable, neither justify risking the loss of further lives if conditions are too dangerous. It is just as important to know where to draw the line when attempting these types of recovery as it is to keep an aircraft on the ground when the weather conditions dictate.

Exercising patience and extreme caution are the only way to proceed with this operation and an acceptance that sometimes the sea refuses to yield its' secrets.

I have not heard the 2 remaining crew members are not in the wreckage........ it was speculated that after some searching of the main fuselage that the 2 remaining crew members could not be located but then the weather deteriorated and the search was called off.

Frustrating as it may be but there are questions that have to be answered especially if it finds out the R 116 suffered some sort of Technical malfunction and is it fleet line problem there are families waiting for the loved ones to be laid rest and in piece we are nearly into week 4 and all we have right now is a whole load of what if's and speculation and that the a/c was at the location of Blackrock that is all we have right now, I appreciate that conditions are dangerous out there but we are still no nearer to know what has happened to R116 time is running out questions have to be answered.

That is one heck of a long sentence :eek: Obviously grammar isn't a strong point ;)

Voice and Data recorders have been with AAIB for nearly a week. The longer the silence, the less likely the suspicion of mechanical failure.

Latest: Gardaí confirm a body has been found in the R116 | Irish Examiner

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/statu...37570653831170

All other sources say pretty much the same since then.

It was hoped that when they tried a partial lift to look underneath the wreckage they might find something.

I'm not sure how it is that time is running out...this is a recovery operation and the responsible authorities are dealing with it as they see fit.

They should have a pretty good idea what happened once the CVR/FDR is processed by the AAIB, and considering they've had it about a week it, something more definitive should be known soon.

English is not my first language..........

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0401/86...of-rescue-116/

Probably have about 24 hours before swells rise again and the next chance of a calm sea is sometime after Wednesday.
http://met.ie/forecasts/5day-ireland.asp

Joseph O'Connor paying tribute with his powerful poem 'Rescue 116'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQiKQtVIvFQ

No mechanical anomolies detected in initial FDR/CVR analysis.

Rescue 116 crash: ?No mechanical anomalies? in analysis of data

Does anyone know if the FMS installed in this machine have an alphabetic database, which would automatically jump to the next entered location as the identifier is entered?

For example, BlackRock would appear before BlackSod in a predictive alphabetic sequence as it autocompletes as the letters are selected in comparison to the existing database?

I'm not familiar with the configuration or equipment installed in these helicopters.

No doesn't happen

However R is next to S on the key pad. So if it were BlackR or BlackS it's only a finger tap apart. However I have no idea what they are called in this particular database.

BROK and BSOD would make more sense in my world.
I have no idea as to what the naming convention is in place in the ICG operation.
Many operations have oft used fixed waypoints as a permanent part of the nav database they subscibe to. Things like company approved approaches are also incorporated.
Having said that we are entering the world of needless speculation.

Just hoping we get the missing home to their families soon.

Looking at the picture of Blackrock at the start of the RTE news report a few posts ago. That's a big lump of rock. You've got to ask if their radar was working. That would have been an enormous radar return.

"No mechanical anomalies" is I suppose a blessing to my home patch of the N Sea where the S92 is currently ubiquitous, but I guess the corollary to that is that it was CFIT. Such a shame, but it does reinforce the point I was trying to make many pages ago, that IFR approaches off-airfield do carry a relatively high risk. They are probably intrinsically safe in theory, but add in human factors and there are more opportunities for human error to creep in. As I said earlier, I do feel that SAR crews and their dispatchers sometimes don't really appreciate this, and perhaps need to be more mindful of it when carrying out a role that is not life-or-death. Let's be clear, these types of approaches are "safe", (whatever that means), but not "as safe" as an airfield IFR approach.

In the early days of the N Sea we used to climb up rig legs, hover taxi in fog to Unst etc, and these things were relatively safe - "its a helicopter". But not safe enough, and now we are no longer allowed to do it.

Is it that easy to tell the difference between a big lump of rock and a heavy rain shower? And of course the radar doesn't tell you the height of the rock.

Yes there's a difference

Are you going to tell us what it is?

Shape, size, colour change at different ranges, showers tend to change colour as they get closer or you closer to them.

Wasn't it low cloud and fog that night? Would you be expecting a heavy shower in those conditions with a red return?

For an approach to land I would also have GMAP or GMAP 2 selected, so the return the radar is showing is most likely to be of the solid kind.

My point is that yes there are differences, but fairly minor ones as you describe. It is therefore not impossible that they disregarded the return as being weather (despite the actual weather being as you say) - or at least it is as valid an explanation as the radar being U/S. If the radar had actually been U/S, would they have continued with the approach?

Everybody play nice please.

Can't imagine a scenario where you would decend IMC to get visual underneath knowing the radar is U/S? Other than a greater emergency and lack of other options...

I thought we were? If it transpires that it was crew error, would you rather it was blamed on that specific crew, or that they were the victims of the culture, custom and practice of SAR?

Is there any information on the lat long of the vessel that at one point, both machines were heading to? So far, all we hear is 150 west of Ireland.

I ask because from the track almost out of Dublin, but certainly leaving the Mayo shore, R116 was pointing directly at Blackrock. Either their heading was for the ship, and Blackrock was coincidentally directly underneath on the outbound, or they were heading to Blackrock.

If that is the ship track, it may mean that at the point where they couldn't raise R118, the crew made the decision to abandon the top cover mission at least for the time being, and go to Blacksod for fuel.

Various scenarios being discussed are then in play.

I do think that what their intention was heading west from Achill, I think it was, is important.

I haven't seen that track map for a while, but it seems that they jogged to starboard just as they came on the rock, before tracking again on the same heading.

Has anybody got R118's track?

No insult was implied or intended towards anyone.
Sorry if you thought I had.

I would like that they find out exactly what happened and correct the problems that caused this tragedy.

The list of folks We have lost in this business is long enough already.

Statement from the AAIU
 

Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) Statement in relation to R116 Investigation

Ends