What soogyboxers said.

Charming...

No, it would not fail to pick up terrain ahead of you.

BER NOOLY you are getting a bit of a kicking because your posts, although childlike to us in the know, are good questions that are at the heart of this accident.

EGPWS is not the panacea you would imagine it to be and can never be trusted as a primary navigation aid. The Regulator makes that clear as does the manufacturer.

The WX Radar, If used reasonably competently should show a clear coastline. Islands, ships and boats. It's hard to accept that this crew, doing such a procedure, at such heights AMSL, would not have the Radar trimmed for optimum performance. At the heights implied large ships become a hazard. This was their bread and butter day job after all.

It's as hard to accept they navigated to the wrong waypoint.

While there is always potential for human error, In this case there were multiple layers of "humans" experienced and authorotive enough to reduce the chances of an error exponentially.

It is for these reasons that Soggy Boxers is getting irritated because in the end, the only real answers may come from the wreckage, FDR and CVR data. Without this information, nothing of this incident makes any sense when the experience and skills of that crew are considered.

BER nooly. Hope that explains Soggies frustration.

Rescue 118 was tasked at that time but went from Sligo direct to Blacksod to refuel before heading to the ship, I would have thought that top cover should have the two S92s travelling together and not to be so far behind.

For what it's worth I posted this a week ago.

Again I am not familiar with the this helicopters radar kit but that happened once. Not on the database they could have thought it was a ship.

Soggy is right - await 3 things 1. CV/FDR retrieved intact, 2. All bodies recovered 3. Prelim accident report published ...... and then start discussing.

A ship would look different than a land mass, and would you pass over a ship at 220ft? Still doesn't add up.

Childlike but also a good question? Which is it? So a downward radar tilt while flying at 220 ft would have no problem detecting something say 2 km ahead?

I never said EGPWS was a panacea or their primary means of navigation, quite the opposite in fact.

There is a way to answer questions, which the vast majority of people have done in a civil way. There is just one senior member that seems to have a chip on his shoulder, as also evidenced in some of his replies on other threads too.

Yes is the answer, the radar would see it. Based upon standard set up etc etc etc doesn't matter if you are in wx mode or gmap, the tilt would have to have been extreme not to pick it up. Which I can think of no reason for it to be anything other than within a normal range.

Anyone know what approach to Blacksod R118 used? Did it go via Blackrock too? Conditions at nearby Belmullet were not ideal in the hours previous.

Midnight
Visibility 2.5 km, Ceiling 400 ft

11 pm
Visibility 3.9 km, Ceiling 600 ft

10 pm
Visibility 6 km, Ceiling 500 ft

Whats' the wx like today for recovery work to commence? Any update appreciated.
MB

As there were in AF447, Asiana at SFO, Turkish 1951 at Amsterdam, etc...

BER NOOLY, sadly your question is "childlike" in that if you had experience of the weather radar you would know the answer to your question is impossible given the variables in play. I am not being rude just explaining why people get frustrated with some posters.

The EGPWS is the virtual world.
The RADAR is the real world,

but as you quite correctly state there are errors that can be made in setting it up to give accurate information that you may need at that particular time. Crews such as SAR are well practiced in such techniques and scenarios. There is nothing to suggest this crew did anything wrong with the radar, but it is possible to set it up so badly that the picture it provides does not give the information you may need. It is also possible, with severe sea conditions, that sea clutter can obscure the targets in play ahead of you. Again this crew would certainly know that.

Many of us understand these issues very well and thus can see no merit in trying to decode what and what did not take place in that cockpit.

Don't take your bat home but just recognise that some issues seem black and white but in reality they are much more complex.

We have to wait for the real situation that will hopefully be presented by the recorded data on the FDR/CVR. In the meantime the desktop assessments count for f***k all.

Pretty good for the next few days:

Sea Area Forecast until 0600 Saturday 25 March 2017

Forecast for Irish coastal waters from Valentia to Erris Head to Howth Head:
Wind: Northeasterly or variable force 3 or less.
Weather: Fair.
Visibility: Good.

Outlook for a further 24 hours until 0600, Sunday, 26 March 2017: Light easterly winds in the northwest and north, elsewhere moderate northeasterly winds occasionally fresh in the southeast. Fair weather.

Weather at the site today is reported as excellent, diving to commence at 10am, Navy divers will go down two at a time and can only spend ten minutes at the site before coming back, two more will then go down ,this is so they don't need to decompress after a dive, they are all currently at the site so hopefully things will go ok for them.

Divers expected to go down around now.

From RTE:

"Naval Service divers are due to commence their investigations at the wreckage of Coast Guard Rescue Helicopter 116 shortly.

Sea conditions are favourable and fair weather expected for the area around the search site.

Teams of specialist Naval Service divers will embark in pairs and will stay underwater for ten-minute periods.

The operation is being coordinated by the LÉ Samuel Beckett, which is located close to the wreckage at Blackrock Island.

It is hoped that the three missing crew members - Captain Mark Duffy, Winch Operator Paul Ormsby and Winchman Ciarán Smith may still be in the wreckage.

Detailed mapping of the undersea conditions has been carried out in recent days and images gathered by specialist cameras have been reviewed by the multiple agencies involved in the operation.

The wreckage is located in waters 60m off the western face of Blackrock, at a depth of around 40m.

Wind conditions in the area have eased considerably and the forecast is for fair or fine weather with good visibility.

Specialist equipment was loaded onto boats at Blacksod pier yesterday evening in anticipation of those favourable sea conditions.

All the agencies involved are stressing that safety concerns will take precedence throughout the operation.

At a briefing at Blacksod Lighthouse last night, Superintendent Tony Healy said the hope was that the three crew were in or near the wreckage.

He said the conditions for underwater exploration of the helicopter were the best that search teams had experienced so far.

Chief Investigator with the Air Accident Investigation Unit Jurgen Whyte said a lot of information had been gathered and that everything possible was being done to assist the dive process.

He said he was confident that dive conditions would be good for a number of days.

Mr Whyte said the priority was to recover the three crew members before efforts were made to access the flight recorder."

Weather at Belmullet at 10 am:

AAXX 24101 03976 45/71 /1602 10087 20028 30318 40330 52010==

Visibility 21 km, Wind 160 ° (SE) 2 m/s (3 knots)

Ber Nooly


I don't think I would ever use a down tilt at 220', it would be at least level tilt if not one division up, depending on clutter. I always wanted to see as much as possible what was in front.

Can you confirm western face? Previous communications have said the area of interest is to the east?

Look at marine traffic and you will see

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7rawrTX0AAmb58.jpg

I disagree based on the difference between the amount of fuel available at Dublin Airport and amount available at Blacksod. You would fuel heavy at Dublin and top-up whatever you've burnt at Blacksod to give you as much time as possible over the atlantic.

Not particularly. Tasking time would seem to me to be the time the coastguard picked up the phone and called the helicopter. Actual departure time of R118 could be anywhere from 10-30mins after that. Ill assume 30mins due to heavy refuelling and a departure of @ 2210
Actual departure time of R116 is known as @2300 after heavy refuel, so tasking time of say 30mins previous @2230.

The 40mins (approx) separation would (to me) be accounted for with trying to deal with the Irish military who couldn't provide top cover on the night.

I had forgotten that point....R118 would have fuelled full at Sligo (again more fuel available there) and topped-up at Blacksod. That top-up detour again reduced the amount of time R116 would have been behind R118.

Looks like an error in the report....confusion probably caused by the fact that the tail contact was with the western side of the island but the helicopter ultimately sank on the eastern side.

A lot of coastline activity by SAR helicopter and RNLI lifeboats in the past 2 hours or so. Huge area being searched.

So it is quite possible that they knew Blackrock was there, used it as an IP for a teardrop letdown, flew out to the West and then turned inbound, got 'visual' (no NVD) benath and then manoeuvered towards Blacksod but hit Blackrock, lost the TR and ended up in the water.

Very extensive search currently underway around Achill Island and the mainland coastline. Several vessels and SAR helis too, checking every inlet and bay.
No information as to cause, perhaps routine due to the first day of decent weather.

I suspect you may be right Crab. I guess it will all come out very soon anyway. RIP.

Katie Hannon of RTE did the Primetime report mentioned previously, made this comment:

https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon/sta...54950409424897


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...land-1.3023182


Useful links:

Pat McGrath rtenews -
https://twitter.com/patmcgrath

#blacksod

#R116

#Rescue116

Flight recorder recovered according to Rte news

Black box flight recorder has been recovered in very good condition it will be taken to the UK for analysis, no mention yet of the crew

Ber Nooly
If doing an ARA approach...No Radar target On the Radar...no approach.
GPS waypoints are secondary when doing an ARA. Radar is primary.
Offset away from target at 1 1/2 miles ..you do not approach the target straight on.
Loose the target ...overshoot now..with a further turn away.
Get to ARA min range and not visual ..overshoot now with a further turn away.
In my experience You don't need to play with tilt once established inbound. Gain sometimes but not often.
I think you are wandering down the wrong trail here.
What caused this tragedy is a mystery.
They have recovered the "Black Box" so hopefully we will find out further info soon.
Most folks here just want our missing brothers back. I pray they are recovered soon.
You admit to having no experience using a WX radar in GMap or any other mode so why are you speculating about it.
Not being mean ..just frustrated with a lot of the rumours, innuendo and hearsay flying around here in the last couple of days.
Please remember that there are bereaved family and friends looking at this thread, also be aware of the ever sensationalistic supposed "Gentlemen of the Press" looking for something interesting to print.

BER NOOLY I don't read anyone posting that they are 100% confident of anything. What most experienced crews are trying to tell you is there are procedures that should be followed and it's difficult to accept this crew would not follow them. The radar is a fairly simple device with obvious operating requirements and limitations. All experienced crews know this so they are struggling with your continued reference to it.

However, it is rumour network so anyone can post what they like including speculation but it may irritate some people when you do.

BER NOOLY, are you struggling with the English language? I am implying nothing. I am expressing an opinion that it's hard for me to believe a simple mistake like wrongly programmed Nav kit OR mishandling the radar would be a possibility in a SAR crew such as this one. That's all. Nothing more because I know nothing.

BER NOOLY there are unwritten rules which you should follow. The first is to show some respect for fellow aviators who have succumbed to the difficult environment that they operate in. The second is to show some restraint in your speculations.

Your last post included examples of previous flight crew errors leading to accidents and loss of life. How would you feel if your it was your friends, family, loved ones missing at the moment reading your last post.

The definition of an idiot, is failure to learn!

"A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss things that affect them". It would be good to get back on track.

Your questions, whilst interesting, are detracting from a specific thread and would be better placed elsewhere. Others have hinted that you restrain from off topic tangents, hence I have deleted such posts and will continue to do so where appropriate.

This is not open for discussion.