|
Well done those people.
Thanks. |
Originally Posted by Red5ive
(Post 9733441)
Also
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...rmen-1.3042247 Strange that the Navy don't have many small ships to help out, like the HMS Ranger that was docked in Cork. |
Red5ive & BookwormPete
check marine traffic for HMS Ranger - now making her approach to Dublin currently off Bray Co. Wicklow. I think the reference to her was an example of small type Naval Craft |
Originally Posted by helicrazi
(Post 9729472)
Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned jackets inflating upon immersion, only a light illuminating and PLB's activating?
http://info.mcmurdogroup.com/rs/boat...udy%202014.pdf |
Originally Posted by BookwormPete
(Post 9734099)
... would probably require a load of diplomatic wrangling they didn't have time for0 ...
|
Sadly.....it is a Recovery Operation now.
|
UK SAR aircraft use Blacksod too. |
I'm not aware of specific jobs in the last couple of years but then they didn't exactly happen every week!
(Reports show there have been one long distance Atlantic job for each of Stornoway and Newquay since 2015 but a lot further north and south so they do not have a Irish stop as an option.) |
Just noticed Granuaile left Blackrock and headed to Galway.
A couple of days ago it was said they planned anther 72 hrs more with the ROV at Blackrock. Must have about done that. |
An extensive search around Blackrock Island off the Co Mayo coast has concluded without finding any trace of two missing Coast Guard crew members. Coast guard scales down search for Rescue 116 crew Must be so hard on the families. |
Search for missing crew of Rescue 116 The Air Accident Investigation Unit and An Garda Síochána in conjunction with Coast Guard have expressed their sincere appreciation to the Commissioners of Irish Lights (CIL) and Marine Institute who were supported by GSI (Geological Survey Office), for the extensive search conducted in the vicinity of Black Rock lighthouse following the tragic loss of Coast Guard helicopter Rescue 116 on March 14. The search operation conducted by the Marine Institute's Holland 1 ROV concluded this afternoon when the Granuaile departed Blacksod Bay. Supt. Tony Healy confirmed that the Garda water unit would conduct diving searches in the vicinity of Blackrock Light as soon as wind and tidal conditions are considered suitable. He also confirmed that he had requested Coast Guard and Civil Defence volunteers to continue with targeted searches of coastal areas and monitoring of specific areas of interest. Gerard O'Flynn from the Coast Guard thanked all the statutory and voluntary organisations for their unstinting support over the past four weeks, paying special thanks to Coast Guard, RNLI and Civil Defence volunteers and Defence Forces assets including naval divers, ships and Air Corps. He added that the operation highlighted the value of inter-agency cooperation in meeting challenges of this type. The Coast Guard also wishes to remind all mariners to keep a good lookout for any material associated with Rescue 116 and to report any findings to Malin Head Coast Guard Coordination Centre. AGS, AAIU and IRCG reiterated their sympathy to the families of Dara Fitzpatrick, Mark Duffy, Paul Ormsby and Ciaran Smith and expressed the hope that with the extensive monitoring both at sea and on shore that the remains of Paul and Ciaran would be found. |
Have they stopped retreival of the wreckage from around Blackrock as well?
|
Originally Posted by cncpc
(Post 9735569)
Have they stopped retreival of the wreckage from around Blackrock as well?
The ROV will probably then go back to the Celtic Explorer. They charge €6k a day for it. https://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area...es?language=en |
Preliminary accident investigation report
Now that the recovery effort seems to have reached a point where it is winding down except for more targeted searches that will happen when needed, the investigators' preliminary report would seem to be the next milestone that will occur. Is there a legal requirement to produce a preliminary report within 30 days or is that just a guideline? I had expected some outcome from the CVR analysis by now.
|
The Sligo and Shannon aircraft cover the west of Ireland for SAR.Very occasionally you will get UK military helicopters heading out to the Atlantic for "no reason" and stopping by Sligo, Shannon, or Blacksod for fuel. Have not seen it in quite a while though. The Sligo helicopter was called out to a grid reference a good number of years ago to do "nothing really". Was the most interesting job that year iirc. Those "no reasons" really are massive when they surface.
...oops.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9734952)
Does that still happen/has it happened under the new contract? Now the Irish CG have the same range as UK SAR (and the same aircraft) is there a need for UK assets to go across to W of Ireland or does it become a function of whose SRR the job is in?
|
The sooner the AAIU publish something about this the better. The SAR (and wider aviation) community need to know how a modern, fully-serviceable helicopter complete with a highly experienced crew ended up at the bottom of the sea. The fact that the rearcrew are still missing is not only heartbreaking for the families but something from which lessons need to be learned quickly. My gut feeling is that this wasn't straightforward human error but a systemic failure with multiple contributory factors (as is often the case).
|
Originally Posted by llamaman
(Post 9736542)
The sooner the AAIU publish something about this the better. The SAR (and wider aviation) community need to know how a modern, fully-serviceable helicopter complete with a highly experienced crew ended up at the bottom of the sea. The fact that the rearcrew are still missing is not only heartbreaking for the families but something from which lessons need to be learned quickly. My gut feeling is that this wasn't straightforward human error but a systemic failure with multiple contributory factors (as is often the case).
|
Originally Posted by llamaman
(Post 9736542)
... need to know how a modern, fully-serviceable helicopter complete with a highly experienced crew ended up at the bottom of the sea ... this wasn't straightforward human error but a systemic failure with multiple contributory factors (as is often the case).
One of the purposes of the systems approach is to prevent, as much as is reasonably possible, a simple human error becoming catastrophic. Somewhere in the details, when published, will be some crucial lessons to learn and maybe some assumptions that need to be re-assessed. |
Originally Posted by llamaman
(Post 9736542)
The sooner the AAIU publish something about this the better. The SAR (and wider aviation) community need to know how a modern, fully-serviceable helicopter complete with a highly experienced crew ended up at the bottom of the sea. The fact that the rearcrew are still missing is not only heartbreaking for the families but something from which lessons need to be learned quickly. My gut feeling is that this wasn't straightforward human error but a systemic failure with multiple contributory factors (as is often the case).
|
Life is not fair....the Sea is a very unforgiving place.
Yes, Closure is good and it tragic the families and friends of the two lost Missing Crewmen are having to go through this but One must be realistic. There has been a tremendous amount of searching going on in a very inhospitable environment. Fishermen, Sailors, and others who venture out all understand the risks and odds of this happening. The Accident Report will be written in time and the story will be told. As for the Missing Crewmembers....there is always hope no matter how slight that they will be found and the family achieve some closure in that regard. |
Instrument Approach error?
I have asked before and nobody dare touch it.
The elefant in the room if you will,,,,, Likely occurance: A gross error in flying a " IFR " approach that was not picked up by existing procedure or common practice ! Why? We shall see. What I like to know is how is it normally done, what equipment is needed. What training is done , what standards apply. What is common and what discression does the Crew have? ??? It is hard to compare Heli SAR/NS oil IFR,and Airline but lets try. After all in BGO , SVG and Aberdeen we are all just a number on the ILS, inbound. So basics are the same, Me Cat C, You Cat A! The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in. Can anyone enlighten us on this, please? It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid. So, me thinks :the procedure is not good! So, again : What is the procedure, in detail? Anyone? With Great Respect Cpt B |
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
(Post 9738902)
The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in. It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid. And as for the other question. A senior crew can mess up, I can assure you of that. We see it quite often in simulator training (but I'm not saying for sure this crew messed up, but it's certainly a possibility). |
Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 9738944)
A senior crew can mess up, I can assure you of that.
Remember Tenerife... |
Anyone have a link to the plates for Blacksod?
|
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
(Post 9738902)
I have asked before and nobody dare touch it.
The elefant in the room if you will,,,,, Likely occurance: A gross error in flying a " IFR " approach that was not picked up by existing procedure or common practice ! Why? We shall see. What I like to know is how is it normally done, what equipment is needed. What training is done , what standards apply. What is common and what discression does the Crew have? ??? It is hard to compare Heli SAR/NS oil IFR,and Airline but lets try. After all in BGO , SVG and Aberdeen we are all just a number on the ILS, inbound. So basics are the same, Me Cat C, You Cat A! The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in. Can anyone enlighten us on this, please? It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid. So, me thinks :the procedure is not good! So, again : What is the procedure, in detail? Anyone? With Great Respect Cpt B |
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
(Post 9739131)
Anyone have a link to the plates for Blacksod?
The following information was published - there may be more these days. Hope that helps. http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/fi...010-signed.pdf |
'We're gone' - last words from cockpit of Rescue 116 as report reveals 'rapid pitch up' - Independent.ie
Not sure where they are getting that info, AAIU page has no preliminary report published yet. Downed Rescue 116 'pitched up rapidly' in final seconds before striking terrain, preliminary report reveals A preliminary report into downed Rescue 116 has revealed the coastguard helicopter 'pitched up rapidly' in its final seconds. The report relied on data recovered from the FLight Data recorder and the Health and Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) card. "Flight data recorded on the Health and Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) card and the FDR, showed that the helicopter was in stable level flight at 200 ft Radio Altitude, 75 kts Indicated Airspeed, helicopter heading 120 degrees magnetic (approximately) on a track towards waypoint BLKMO. In the final seconds, the helicopter pitched up rapidly,impacted with terrain at the western end of Black Rock and departed from controlled flight", the report states. More to follow. Online Editors |
|
More from that report...
A preliminary report into downed Rescue 116 has revealed the coastguard helicopter 'pitched up rapidly' in its final seconds.The report also revealed that the helicopter's on board warning system did not have data related to Blackrock island.An obstacle data base on their system did not list the lighthouse on Blackrock, and the terrain database did not have information on the terrain on the island. Audio data revealed Captain Dara Fitzpatrick and co-pilot Mark Duffy had discussed earlier in the flight that it had been a long time since either had visited the island. |
Heartbreaking reading the CVR transcript. One line in the interim report stands out though and probably confirms what most of us were thinking;
"The CVR recording contains no reference by the Crew to the presence of a lighthouse or terrain at Black Rock during their briefing for APBSS.” I'm somewhat surprised that Blackrock wasn't in the terrain database. For a fleet of helicopters expected to conduct SAROPS anywhere in the Irish SRR (and beyond), often in very poor weather conditions/in the dark, that seems remiss. |
Just a question.....what is the feasibility of having had Radar Transponders installed at Light Houses such as Black Rock?
|
Simply and utterly horrendous! RIP guys.
|
SASless, I think I'd ask that question the other way round.
What is the point in having a procedure encourage helicopters to route to the highest obstacle around when the obstacle has no navaid of any practical use, is miles away from the intended landing spot, and then for good measure leaves out vertical guidance. |
Obviously the omission of Blackrock in the EGPWS database is bad, but Blackrock was featured on the more detailed of the 5 charts in the moving map system, which was being displayed on one of the captain's screens. And it is featured with height 282ft on the Operators Route Guide to Blacksod that they were following. So it appears information was there to notify the crew of Blackrock's presence. And indeed the captain had considered an ALTITUDE warning 26 secs before impact as being "a small island" (which it was), so realised they weren't just over flat sea.
But what I really don't understand is why, 10 miles out, the crew had already descended so low as 200ft RA. It seems they had a standard SAR approach mode APP1 selected, which took them down to 200ft, but why? At least so soon? |
Well the obvious conclusion is that they didn't realise that Blackrock was such a substantial feature. The Commander herself called one of the smaller islets 0.65nm earlier as being the IP. Why didn't the operational route guide show a green spot under the waypoint. Drawn to scale it would still have been identifiable as a substantial chunk of hard stuff.
|
Punt,
Slowly.....if Blackrock had been equipped with a Transponder as is generally done with Oil Rigs and Platforms......and you had your Radar appropriately set up.....then that bit of Rock would be very easily identified. If you had included Blackrock as a Waypoint the GPS would point to it as well.....and with a moving map display there would be a third way of identifying it....and with a Minimum Crossing Altitude/Height....in a preplanned Approach Procedure.....then by adding some Structure to an Arrival to Blacksod.....safety would be enhanced....would it not? What technical issues (if any) prevent the Irish Light House authorities from installing the Transponder? |
The AAIU should make a safety recommendation that all night SAR operations shall have NVD. This would most probably have saved them...
Hopefully that will be in the future SAR regulation and a conclusion in the final report. A lot to learn from this accident...the most shocking and biggest Swiss cheese whole is that Blackrock is not in the EGPWS data base....no last defense... |
Originally Posted by puntosaurus
(Post 9739367)
SASless, I think I'd ask that question the other way round.
What is the point in having a procedure encourage helicopters to route to the highest obstacle around when the obstacle has no navaid of any practical use, is miles away from the intended landing spot, and then for good measure leaves out vertical guidance. Sorry, I've now read Rotorspeeds post and see that the height is on the route guide. |
Sasless. Well I agree that there were lots of other mechanisms already in the cockpit that could have alerted the crew to the presence of the island, and one more (Txpndr) might have helped. But the fundamental problem appears to be that the crew clearly didn't know that BLKMO was above a large island, rather than a small rock (Carrick something or other) barely exposed at low tide.
If your IP is just a Lat/Long in the FMC, why on earth place it over the highest point around. The purpose of a letdown over water is surely to keep you away from the hard stuff until you are ready for it. cnpc. Whoever drew up the approach knew the island was 282ft high, because he or she wrote it on the plate. oden. The guys in the back knew they were headed for the island because they were looking at an image of it on a display. Presumably the crew were not looking at that display. |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 9739402)
P
If you had included Blackrock as a Waypoint the GPS would point to it as well.....and with a moving map display there would be a third way of identifying it....and with a Minimum Crossing Altitude/Height....in a preplanned Approach Procedure.....then by adding some Structure to an Arrival to Blacksod.....safety would be enhanced....would it not? |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 16:14. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.