blackrock island
 

"There had been no satellite alerts, no signals, no Mayday. The last communication from Rescue 116, at 12.45am, was brief and to the point. It was “landing in Blacksod”

However at 12.46am one minute later the last AIS position is 13km away from Backsod lighthouse helipad and 60 metres from blackrock lighthouse .As others have stated blackrock LH is on a large rock in the sea with 300ft elevation while blacksod is at sealevel.Given the last radiocall "landing at blacksod" was made 1 minute before the final position beside blackrock island it would seem highly probable that a landing was attempted at blackrock. Depending on the approach maybe only one lighthouse was visible?Would there be evidence of a contact on blackrock island ?it is such a sad story given these great people risk there lives to save others rip bravest ones.

Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?

because you might care a bit more...............

Because even if theories are proved correct it is deeply unpleasant for anyone connected to have to hear such opinion until the factual un-opinionated report is released. An AW139 crew who visited the scene seem to think differently, providing an armchair opinion that has now reached as far as Aberdeen!!! People in glass houses in this case.

In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?

My deepest condolences to the families, absolutely shocked by this
At the Spanish maritime SAR we all feel like we lost a member of our family
God bless for all the lifes you saved, RIP brothers

Was there a mixup between BlackRock and Blacksod lighthouses?
 

One lighthouse is at sea level, the other at around 300 feet are they not? They shot one or two missed approaches in order to get in to refuel. What was their fuel status? ( pressure building with multiple missed approaches?) The weather had a cloud base of 500 feet. Figuring it would have been dark. Were they wearing NVD's? Clearly something has gone wrong and it would seem from this thread many are speculating but without focusing on causal factors and sound theories. There are many things to probably learn from this accident. Hopefully the Flight recorder will quickly be recovered and shed light on what actually happened. An S&R S92 should have auto hover & NVD's I presume. RIP to the crew. Always hard on their families & loved ones. Hopefully CHC will support the families financially for the years ahead.

My very sincere condolences.

A question if I may from downunder .... does this operation use NVIS? If not, is this well proven technology on the table for the future there? Like all technologies, they have limitations, but I almost never fly at night without them now.

HC people feel compelled to control posts because they fail to separate the emotion from the technical performance of machine and crews. Like you said, the tragedy is obvious and a given. However the event has happened.

What immediatly matters now, to everyone flying in the front or the back of an S92 is; is it an aircraft problem OR a crew problem.

Given the information already available I suspect the answer on this one might be a little sooner than later. However that is just an opinion. The evidence so far could just be circumstantial.

I knew both pilots. It does not change the desire to know what caused it.

You made your point well but then went into random speculation which helps no-one

y
That was my interpretation - the ais track looks like an ARA. However, it raises more questions than answers!

Irish Examiner
"Update 7.40am: It has emerged the Air Corps was initially asked to provide top cover for the mission missing helicopter Rescue 116 was sent on.

The Defence Forces confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast they could not provide an aircraft outside of normal hours, due to a loss of experienced personnel.

At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast.

They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.

They have confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast that this is because of a loss of experienced personnel among both air crew and air traffic control.

The Rescue 116 helicopter was subsequently sent to provide top cover for the mission.

The Defence Forces say at 1.45am they then received an emergency request to conduct a search for the helicopter, which had gone missing.

They initiated a recall plan and were able to provide a Casa aircraft to assist in the search and rescue operation."


http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/latest-air-corps-was-initially-asked-to-provide-top-cover-for-rescue-116-mission-781772.html

Theories.
 

Could members please keep theories and speculation to a minimum. Family members are awaiting the return of their loved ones, inaccurate reporting of on going circumstances, and inaccurate theories is not making the current situation any easier. As we know press are reading what is being posted, so we kindly ask that it be kept to a minimum at this time.

To be fair to the Air Corps, though, SAR and top-cover are not funded or 'primary missions' and thus are flown as-available. It doesn't appear that ICG compensates them for any missions flown, and certainly it isn't deducted from CHC's budget, so crews and aircraft aren't dedicated on stand-by.

Before this incident I had assumed that SAR was a tasking but the CASAs are primarily for maritime surveillance, medevac and personnel transport.

The Air Corps even sent the LJ45 once for top-cover, since the aircraft and crew happened to be available at Baldonnel that day.

Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.

Mark was also a captain.

the press are reporting that he was the Chief Pilot.

Norunway. I agree with Mitchaa. I also understand your point though. However, on this forum you will get professional opinions from Pilots, Rear Crew and Engineers who do this stuff every day. Sometimes we are not as professional in our postings as we maybe should be. Then you get others.

I have to say that over the years the "RIPs" and "Very Sads" are small consolation to those individuals who operate and maintain similar/identical types. We know the risks and the platitudes served on these forums are meaningless to us.

However, for family members and loved ones the clinical, technical descriptions, opinions and "Swags" may, or may not provide some comfort/explanation. That is the power of the internet.

What we, as a professional body of people, should not do, is apportion blame. Even when it may seem that "Pilot" or "Engineer" errors appears or is confirmed as the root cause. We should, and mostly do, look deeper. Why/How can that error be made? and most importantly, "Am I capable of the same error".

We are all stakeholders in these situations. Some are looking for explanations or reasons why an event occurs. Some are simply interested in whether it was "Aircraft" or "Human". Some are looking for news column inches.

Having said all of that, I have found over the last few years that many posters, of the professional type, add great value to understanding the details of such events. There is a lot more good than bad on PPRUNE.

You cannot suppress it. You cannot control it (unless you are a MOD). However, you should take what value you can and disregard the rest.

DB

Unfortunately the circumstances regarding her rescue, subsequent death and no doubt, her gender played a big part in the amount of press cover she received. Also, there were plenty of archive photos etc which the press love to use to fill column/inches.

Every member of the crew play an important part in such operations and jeepys is correct to remind us not to, unintentionally, play down the loss of them.

Both pilots may have been captains by rank but the question of who was commander by role for this task has yet to be answered. The press seldom understand the distinction.

Can I ask does the S92 have a TAWS system.

No. Either pilot, and possibly the rear crew, could be on the radio. The commander may or may not be the pilot flying.

Yes - Honeywell EGPWS MK XXII

Typically that would indicate he was acting as co-pilot

Well said Mitchaa, as a PAX who originally came across this forum looking for information after CGR491 just over 8 years ago I find the majority of the posters on here great sources of additional points of view from an experienced knowledge base.

I next fly in a S-92A on Monday, as always I trust the pilots, who trust the AMEs, who trust the manufacturer to reduce the risk of rotary flight to as low as practically possible. The "recent" TRPCS bearing assembly issue is just another example of where can never drop our guard and always remain vigilant.

When tragic events such as 491 or 116 happen we all have a right to access to as much information as possible to determine whether or not we wish to continue accepting the inherent risks of helo flying. I've personally been accepting that risk for over 25 years and have no intentions to deviate from that.

I can tell you that it still grieves me to how 491 happened, but myself and my friends and collleagues who lost family members take some comfort in knowing that valuable lessons were learned and that the loss of life was not completely in vain. I kept that thought in my mind as we attended the 8th memorial service and the candles were lit by the family members for all 17 souls that were lost that day.

I'm sure that the friends and family of 116 will take comfort in knowing that they are all in our thoughts and prayers within our small community who use and rely on this AC type to not only save lives but also to make a living in our chosen industry, no matter what the root cause(s) emerge from the following investigation. It is human nature to ask the question "why" at this stage in the ongoing investigation.

Max

There's been speculation as to why an Irish Air Corps fixed wing aircraft wasn't despatched to provide top cover for Sligo crew.

The Defence Forces has said a request was made, but Baldonnel was unable to provide support.

From The Irish Times

Defence Forces staff shortage led to Rescue 116 being deployed

JAS

A night letdown over water in poor weather is a straightforward process which the crew will have practiced many times, They have a forward looking radar to check the area is clear of obstacles and they will let down to a predetermined height and engage the Trans Down mode for the autopilot - this will take them from a specified height (I don't know what their SOPS are) to a defined Rad Alt height over the water - hopefully VMC beneath the weather.

There will be several cross checks to make sure the AP is performing correctly as well as height and speed calls and crosschecks between the pilots and the rearcrew won't be twiddling their thumbs while this is going on either - possibly using the FLIR and or/monitoring the radar.

The crew will have also discussed the actions if they don't get visual.

It should be a pretty automated process unless the crew elect to manually fly the cyclic program in order to manoeuvre to keep clear of radar contacts or if a part of the AP system fails.

For CFIT to occur in this process would be unlikely unless they thought they were visual under the weather and disengaged the AP letdown modes - even then they would probably still retain the Rad Alt hold - in trying to transfer from instruments to NVD it is possible they lost visual references but this is the sort of thing they train for.

Once established in an overwater hover with everything coupled, they would discuss how to get to the LS and use the AP systems to achieve this.

With 2 pilots and a fully serviceable AP with all the bells and whistles, disorientation leading to CFIT is unlikely but not impossible.

There are many system failures, especially at crucial stages of flight low level over the water which could overwhelm the crew who are already working quite hard and are probably a little fatigued since it was 01:30 and any major catastrophic failure would be impossible to recover from at such low altitude in poor conditions.

We will eventually discover the sequence of events and possibly the cause or causes of the accident but not until the CVFDR is recovered and analysed.

Yes, it is 'just' another accident but when those who are required to fly in conditions when most would stop in order to rescue others and are killed in the course of their duties, it is doubly tragic.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...ht%20route.png

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...ack%20Rock.png

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...20position.png

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...ack%20rock.png

Warning: Rant ahead.

Can the first hole in the cheese be assigned to the fact that the Air Corps were unable to provide fixed-wing top cover for the original Rescue 118 SAR mission?

As with the police force here, the Defense Forces have been consistently underfunded and under-resourced. For the Gardai, that has reulted in two policemen being shot dead in recent years and for the SAR crews (Air Corps and now CHC) has also directly or indirectly resulted in two SAR helicopter accidents with the loss of eight crewmen and women.

If the IAC Casa had provided top cover as requested, the R116 crew would in all likelihood be alive today. The inability of the IAC to launch a fixed-wing as requested is down to low staffing levels within the Casa squadron and the ATC unit at Baldonnell, apparently. If wages are too poor to retain skilled personnel, that needs to be examined. Baldonnel should not be a training school for Ryanair or other operators who can lure well-trained personnel away with ease. Ultimately, responsibility lies with our esteemed elected representatives in government. They fail to resource organisations like the Air Corps, then stupidly wonder why people die in accidents like this. The air accident investigation report more than likely won't highlight the inability of a so-called modern air arm to answer a request for fixed-wing top cover but it is the event that sets the ball rolling and ultimately leads the crew of R116 to the west coast.

The Taoiseach apparently has commented that the staff shortages within the Air Corps are "well known".:ugh: It makes the blood boil.

500 Fan.

500 Fan - your rant is a total red herring. Tasking was appropriate and as Crab points out should have been a doddle for an experienced SAR crew in a new sophisticated S92. 1.5 hour flight, lots of fuel, even for an alternate if required. Something doesn't look quite right on 212man's track picture, but maybe if someone pulls the speed data from AIS it would provide more info. Operator already would have his own sat-tracking info including altitudes, gear position, and communications with dispatch. In an incident like this the operator (especially one with a recent experience) follows a strict control of information protocol to assist investigators in unbiased analysis, and to safeguard reputation.

I see non-professionals on this thread reference "bravery" and "heroism". Two words that have absolutely no place in a civilian SAR operation. It is a profession, and the operator and supervising authority won't tolerate any action that hints of those words. We can leave that to media fodder.

Can you elaborate? Unfortunately the data seems time limited and no longer viewable, but the flight was about 1:55 I recall, with a groundspeed en-route commensurate with a moderate westerly headwind. During the teardrop manoeuvre, the groundspeed was around 70 kts into wind, and 90 kts downwind - as shown in the last data point next to the rock.

Just registered for free and now see 3 days of history, so it departed at 22:05 UTC and final record at 23:45 - so 1:40 flight.

Why would this be a hole in the Cheese (apart from the fact that a Helicopter that doesn't fly won't crash)?

Providing Top cover isn't exactly something that would be considered 'High Risk' operation. At least beyond the fact that at night over unlit sea (apart from the Lighthouses) is always a somewhat increased risk environment. But for such an experienced crew and capable machine that shouldn't be anywhere near High Risk.
Doesn't rule out CFIT but it is not a natural conclusion given the circumstances.

But, it hadn't got to that stage in the mission - it was planning to refuel at Blacksod before proceeding on task, any reference to 'top cover' is largely irrelevant in the specific context of the accident scenario (outside of discussion about the aircraft being airborne at all).

"outside of discussion about the aircraft being airborne at all"

This is what I refer to when I mentioned the lack of IAC top cover previously. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the accident but it is a contributing factor towards why R116 was launched in the first place.



Update re Blackrock Island: An "area of interest" has been identified on Blackrock by the AAIU.

500 Fan.

I'm not sure why they elected to make their final approach downwind - if it was a moderate Westerly it would be well within the capabilities of the aircraft but it would make more sense to approach into wind with a slower groundspeed if conditions were poor,

Without knowing the heights and speeds from the data points it is difficult to know but perhaps their Westerly track to the rock which then diverged slightly North was an aborted approach due to a technical issue which forced them to go around, deal with the problem and then make a quick approach downwind to get visual.

As for top-cover - it is better to have a helicopter that can rescue you than a fixed wing that can only provide comms, I did the first long range job 250nm W from Castletown Bere after the demise of the Nimrod and we had a Fisheries protection Cessna for top cover - it gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing you are not out there alone but if something goes wrong they cant really help you.

My post was responding to Henra

Quick question: What would an average empty mass of a SAR 92 compared to an "offshore standard 92" and do they have aux fuel tanks fitted?
Never flew a SAR 92 and the last 92 I flew we could fuel to 7000lbs of fuel ( we had some long legs 280-90NM from shore and sometimes our alternate was a long way away if our departure point was below alternate limits) Seldom used more than 6000-6500. Pax/bag load at those fuel numbers was to say the least "considerably reduced".
Just curious.

Crab, I appreciate your insights into this accident, especially your technical inputs.

In your last post above, are you thinking "final approach" was meant to be to the Blackrock Light helipad? The report is that at almost the exact spot of the last position, someone transmitted "Landing at Blacksod".

In reply to an earlier post, I see someone saying that Blackrock Light doesn't show any signs of a strike, nor does the rock. The Times is now saying the investigors are going back to Blackrock to investigage "something of interest" or something like that.

Close the thread, close the site.... This is a forum for people to air their views. When Portland lynx went down with a friend on board I used these forums, don't try to control people, moderators do that if they think people are going outside of what is a reasonable post. If the press quote an Internet forum as an SME they'd lose credibility.

One would hope that folks would not enter into unhelpful and needless speculations nor push their personal agenda.
Some however will.
If you think this is bad check the rumours and news thread. Over there if an airliner (big jet thingy) crashes the wreckage has not stopped bouncing before 300 experts ( EXPERT : an EX is a has been and a SPERT Is a drip under pressure ) have decided what caused it and it all goes downhill from there.
Let us all refrain from such activities.
Having said that there are some who post legitimate facts and knowledge and they should be commended for doing so.
As pilots or crew we all want to know ASAP what happened and why so we can avoid accidents whatever the reasons.

The Irish Times is now saying wreckage has been found on Blackrock.

Pieces of wreckage have been found by the Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) on Blackrock lighthouse, the last known position of the helicopter, some 13km west of the Mullet peninsula.

To answer an earlier question, I believe SAR in Ireland started using Night Vision Goggles about three or four years ago. Whether Irish SAR pilots would routinely have them lowered at this stage of flight is open to question. Some may have done, some may not. I don't think either of these pilots had a military background so flying offshore or close to the shore with their goggles lowered may not have seemed like the natural thing to do. Either way there should still have been FLIR and moving map back up from the rearcrew so the theory that Blackrock HLS could have been mistaken for Blacksod HLS seems a little far fetched.