Henri

I am fully aware the manufacturer puts a warranty on the parts and not the labour. WHY DONT you answer the question would you or anyone else buy a new car without a warranty, I doubt it very very much but you as a manufacturer ( ?) not only want me to put my money where my mouth is on a virtually new helicopter type but then take the pea by not putting your money where your mouth is and backing your product.
I am afraid as 500e says manufacturers have a lot to learn from the automotive industry. Lets look at in another way I would have puchased 2 machines and i have 2 other customers that would have purchased. That is 4 machines or approx 10% of the entire cabri production so far gone due to no warranty:ugh:

Hughes I think you are putting the cart before the horse. I think you can see the helicopter that is run out of Kemble has enough time on it to show that within a reasonable timescale the helicopter doesn't fall apart.

You are getting stuck on a point that over a 12 month period is irrelevant - ok you can argue if it is then the manufacturer should grant a warranty but if they don't have the resources to do it then they don't. Seems a business opportunity for someone to underwrite IMO.. but I digress.

If customers are private punters then you would have to be almost stupid to take an R22 over a G2 they are chalk and cheese.

Pitts

To use the exact words of those at Kemble " we have had a lot of niggling problems with senders and electrical items "
So please answer the question would you buy with your money, for instance, a brand new £ 100k Range Rover with no warranty ? I have one customer and a friend of another who purchased brand new range rovers and within 2 months have been given new cars due to "issues"
So why would i wish to leave my self exposed, if the product is so good give the warranty, what makes you think I have the resource as opposed to the manufacturer? You need to live in the real world mate or you are so wealthy you can afford to put right someone else's problems.
Quite frankly I am voting with my feet and wallet, you have seen 500E's comment another potential customer.
By the way how many Cabri G2's have been sold in the UK - NONE other than the 2 to the distributor. Tells you something about the economic climate and what people think at the moment !

Not sure what the issues in detail but as I understand it G-UIMB still has around 400hours in use as it is almost daily instructing new pilots. I think a private owner might take a few years to click up over 400 hours...

That said it isn't "no warranty" it is a parts warranty and its not a case of being so rich, etc. Look in the end you know whats cheaper than a Cabri G2? A car. Still too rich? Get a motorbike... cycle.. walk...

In the end flying isn't cheap and if I was a person flying privately with the resources to smoke around in a new Range Rover (which is what £100k with a spec?) then truthfully if it costs me £290 per hour or £350 per hour for my 50hours a year thats a delta of £3000. So I'd vote with staying alive, like the old motorbike saying goes, if you have a £20 head get a £20 crash helmet.

Don't get me wrong i see the point you make but think it is over played and I don't see "niggling problems with senders and electrical items" as a show stopper.

Not a show stopper but, I have just had a zero timed lycomoing engine put in one of my 300's, blown its crankseal twice due to the glue they are stuck in with. Takes 4 to 5 hours to get to the seal to replace it. Now if that was on my brand new cabri G2 that would have cost 5 x £ 65 plus travelling, twice. Why should I pay for that when i am having to pay for the down time
Or put it this way would you pay as a student for that ? Someone has to pay for it why should it be the operator ?

Pitts

Sorry forgot to add my mountainbike frame comes with a LIFETIME warranty !!!!!!!!! Bike cost £ 2800 a 1 % of a CabriG2 so your analogy doesnt really work

Hello Hughes500,

First I'm not from the manufacturer so if you want to start a commercial negotiation (a good idea), contact directly your dealer or Guimbal.

As I've already answer to you : I DO UNDERSTAND that you would rather want a full warranty instead of a part warranty only.

I would not buy a car without any warranty but commercial or private operators DO buy the G2 with part warranty only, that's why I suggested you to contact some of them to know how they deal with that point.

If a full warranty is a vital point for you (as I can understand) I tell you again to choose the 300 that you know well and that has a 2 years full warranty (with the help of their powerful owner : Sikorsky).

In my opinion, if you can get more customers (students or pilots) with a G2 choose the G2, it's worth the lake of labour warranty. I say that because I can see around me that it's a fact, customers (students or pilots) knowing a lot of things now, being concerne about safety and comparing as you do.

Anyway, as you said that "you would love to buy the G2" and that "Bruno and his product are really impressive" (and I do agree with you), I do sincerely hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the full warranty you need so you can propose to your customers a safe and modern aircraft. You will be all happy ( Guimbal, you and your many customers) and that's the best way to do business!

And by the way, I don't think that your friend's Range Rover explanation is really accurate. I could say that your friend is :ugh: to buy a car with only the poor minimum legal warranty of 2 years when you can buy a Kia car with a 7 years warranty with no extra charges! What's going to happen if your friend's car get problems after 25 months ?!! I could say as you do : who's going to buy a car with only 2 years warranty ?! The answer is : most of the people do because they don't buy ONLY a warannty, they buy the car what match their needs whatever they are.
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There's no "if" about it!!! WHEN the manufacturer's agent stops patching it up to get it through the warranty-period.

I'd suggest that 98%of Range Rovers are bought for ego/style...NOT for their "off- road workhorse" capabilities.

I think this Heli has enough time on it to give credibility to it's construction and it's manufacturer's financial stability.

Parts ARE a major cost....by excluding the labour-element, the Factory can ACCURATELY factor-in their warranty costs. Known fact, distributors WILL extract the urine on warranty labour, if they get the chance.

True example from the Motoring world .-
Changing a clutch in a BMC transverse-engine 1800 was an engine/trans. out job.....book time ~12 hours.......remove battery and tray, disconnect exhaust and a few bits and bobs ,unfasten engine mountings and tilt the clutch end up...you could then whizz it out ,replace with new "warranty " item , drop engine back down and drive out after 3 hours labour all in!

It was only the huge number of "faulty" clutch returns, where no fault was found, that bought this "scam" to light.

SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR WARRANTIES.....Add it on to the purchase-price?....there are already many here wanting a Bentley for Ford money,
so, IMHO, Guimbal has hedged their bets by excluding the factor over which they have no control and priced the product accordingly.

An aquaintance flew a Schweitzer for a couple of years and then "upgraded" to a R44....it didn't last long, he survived when it bit him.

If you're that concerned about a warranty, a LLoyds Underwriter will happily take your money, give you "peace of mind" and you'll fly a more modern, safer, economical Heli.

I neither own or fly a Rotary Wing (unless you count R.C. models:p )
So, I've no dog in this fight. It's just common-sense really and what counts is the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.

I'd venture to suggest the depreciation figures quoted early-on in the thread, are wildly pessimistic.....An end of life Robbo needs a huge rebuild.....Cabri of same age, given the same care and attention...probably 10% of the expense....this must surely reflect in the resale value of the guimbal. (and no worries about main blades peeling open! )

Cockney

I have no problem with what happens after 2 years, might as well go buy a second hand one that is 2 years old then.
having been in the industry for 25 years owned over 20 different machines and personally had to write the checks for them I know what i am talking about, the manufacturers are taking the piss. It is really easy for the majority of people on this site to say this that and the other, I would wager 99% have never put their hand in their pocket to run a machine let alone make it a business where one can earn a reasonable living.
Interestingly insurance companies dont like the Cabri, it is cheaper to insure one of my 500's for 5 pax then it is a cabri for 2 pax, tell you something ?

Come on Hughes 500 having a view doesn't mean you are a snotty nosed 12 year old with a paper round nor does owning a helicopter/aircraft mean you care to make a business out of aviation!

Insurance companies hate it because there is no data so for them its hard to price the risk. Not only that but you'll have no time on type which is another thing insurance will focus on..

How much have Cotswold had to spend on things that would fall under warranty for G-UIMB since they taken it?

Hughes...I couldn't agree more! unfortunately for you, Guimbals on the used market are going to be like rocking horse 5h1t, 'cos all owners appear to be delighted with them. I also think they will fetch top-dollar.....unlike your Range-dog example , the price of which will suffer galactic depreciation in that first 2 years.....they've always been slung together with a load of poor-quality bits leading to constant failures both major and minor......Trabant should be about 10 grand nowadays...they've had ~25 years to recover the tooling costs of the current version of that motorised stagecoach.......you talk about taking the whizz!!!!.....don't forget Guimbal's a Frog....they do things a bit differently out there:) they're mere amateurs in the art of screwing punters.

I'd love you to get a couple of used ones for handy money, but my crystal ball says Dennis Kenyon's original estimate of depreciation is extremely pessimistic.

As insurers get the measure of this new entrant to the market, the others will jump on the gravy-train and the price will crash to a realistic level.

I think you're cutting your nose to spite your face, but I think this heli will succeed and Frank will have to seriously up his game.

Pitts, they don't give a flying Fxxk about the product....they'll know the Robbo profitability, they'll know the Guimbal's been certified and appraised by top experts like D.K.....but as an "unknown entity" they've a good excuse to squeeze hard and bleed off as much gravy as they can....as other competition enters the field, they'll compete until the price is realistic. Make hay whilst the sun shines, comes to mind.

cockney steve
After over 40 years in the trade there were more low hour, & low £ per hour repairs than the other way round.
Tend to agree regarding LR product

HeliHenri
Perhaps the 7 year reason is to instil confidence in a product.
A manufacturer that stands behind product is what is required, if as is said the pricing is to keep cost down, perhaps cost to high in first place.
As is said we all have a point of view mine is I want a fully committed manufacturer, & service network, would not getting paid for warranty work, encourage them to keep me happy.
Was there not some talk of 120 blades taking on water are G2 not made in same facility?
Regarding Insurance as said low hours no history for base , so high premium, perhaps as the machine seems so safe Bruno could do a deal with a Co to at least lower it.
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers

If I were in the market for a Cabri-sized helicopter, I'd do the math on all the available models, compare features and specs against the mission, and make a decision based on performance to mission, capital costs, and operating costs. I'd remember that all--without exception--warranties are limited in some way. Then I'd sharpen my pencil and...

If manufacturer 'A' provides a 12 month warranty which includes labor on replaced parts, I would put a 'zero' in that cell of my first-year operating cost spreadsheet. (In reality, there will always be something in that cell of course).

If manufacturer 'B' provides a 12 month 'parts-only' warranty, I'd add some costs for assumed labor in the first year lifecycle cost spreadsheet. I'd make a best-guess as to estimated manhours to rectify an assumed number of failures (a good AMT can help here), and add those costs in column 'B'. Sure it's just a guess, but without a large fleet to analyze failure rates, that's all insurance companies do anyway. That's why insurance rates are probably higher for the Cabri.

I'd tally up the numbers in column 'A', then column 'B', weigh those costs against features and specs, and make my decision.

Not sure why it's much more complicated than that.

Or, make a decision the way my wife picks out her new car: looks and color!

Hello sotitas,

I'm so sorry but you won't be corrected.

Guimbal statement :
"Key components of the helicopter, masterpieces of technology, the blades are entirely manufactured, controlled and balanced in our factory."

500e and his brother Hughes500 (they've got the same family name) are just trying to find reasons for not buying the G2 but it's becoming more and more difficult. I'm joking but I'm wondering a little bit ...
.

I hear all on prices, service, warranty but I that still overlooks the major point of the G2 which is some people just won't or wouldn't fly a helicopter if the only choice was a Robinson.

To some that might seem an over reaction but its very real. Now I don't actually think an R22 out performs the G2 in any area (save for perhaps cost) but when some won't even get in one it becomes accademic.

In terms of cost - the G2 seems in the same ranges as a Hughes 269 or Sch300 and thats what? £35/hr more than an R22.. So if you are learning thats £1500 over your 45 hours, seems the best bargain ever

Blades are made in the factory, it was me that suggested having trim tabs fitted so you could track the blades and remove the vibration in high speed flight, rather a schoolboy error, the only thing that lets the older machines down apart from being forced to put a 19th century engine in it !!!

HH
Brothers Nooo :{
Like minded maybe, I have all ways felt my customers are my main concern, I try to give them a fast efficient service with products that the manufacturer is 100% behind, it has done me no harm, & have been in business since 1963 with both motor trade & electronics company's.
Don't need a reason not to buy may be a wonderful machine but no warranty payments, poor customer response, would be a good start.

Hello 500e,

You're right, the same like minded than Hughes500 and as you say in your last post : Hum ... that what you or H500 say to your customers but is it always the reality ?!!! Whises and reality are very often different ...Maybe you don't run a business using 269/300 but H500 do.

Here are the two last posts of you and H500 in the last page of the thread "Hughes 269/Schweizer 300 series" of this forum, the aircraft you know well, you're talking about the manufacturer :

H500
You
.

So we can say that paradise don't exist on hearth.

I do agree that Guimbal is not big enough yet to bring to you eveything you would love but maybe you should to be just a little bit more realistic.
.

It's a fascinating thread. I think H500 is the voice of the consumer.

The helicopter industry has taken the customer for granted in a way that few other industries could get away with.

So, whilst we all welcome innovative new products, such as the G2, it's specification, technical and safety claims are only part of the story. Anyone parting with hard earned capital will inevitably have serious pre-purchase questions about warranties and customer support going forward. And now is the time to raise these doubts, not later.

It's still a very new helicopter, and early customers do not want to be doing the manufacturer's product development without significant assurances.

In this arena, the S.269/300 remains an excellent, proven product, despite Sikorsky's often frustrating attitude, so Guimbal will need to work hard to win customer confidence, especially in the current financial climate.

Hello FLY7,

If you go on a fixed wing, car, tv, or mobile phone forum, you find exactly the same statement ! ;)

The early customers are flying the G2 and they are very happy with it. Right, they didn't get the maximum assurances possible when they bought it but they don't regret it. That is reality.

I would rather understand H500 if the G2 was always grounded with technical problems but that absolutely not the case and the first production aircraft is flying for 4 years now.

As I said, I hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the perfect full warranty wanted by H500 so he can propose to his customers a safe and modern aircraft because you seem to forget that the customers of an operator are consumers too and they've got a voice too, they're fed up to fly old (300) or unsafe (R22) aircrafts :=
.
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Well FLY7, I think that you are taking the problem the wrong way round... "Parting" with capital (?) to buy a tool/machine is only investing, part of everyday business decisions and personnaly, when you are confronted to such a choice as to renew a piston engined trainer helicopter (or a private machine for myself and family) I think that an hypothetical manpower cost for repairs in the first or second year from brand new, opposed to the added "value" of a well concieved and recognised as being superior in so many points, especially security for my clients, the extra "risk of having to pay for work" passes to the background. If competition is like in the case we are discussing left behind, my investment will bring me a lot af custom and my own mind would be at rest every time I take off with a student. The G2 being so similar to the probable next step to turbine (Eurocopter/fenestron), no hesitation in my opinion... Safe flying all. Al

I'd actually become an importer for G2's as I think once they gain traction it will be the only model being sold in that catagory.

At some point they will get to a critical mass that supports a dealer network and then that will support warrantied labour, etc. Either that or they get acquired.

What a lot seem to forget, is Guimbal is NOT sitting with a hangar -full of unsold product!

Why offer a carrot to customers whom he can't supply, short-term, anyway?

Cast your minds back to the introduction of the R22.....it sold on price and the fact it was certified......the Rotorway has had a much longer . rockier path towards respectability, with many serious shortcomings to be eliminated in the early years.....people who wanted to fly Rotary, with a fixed-wing income, paid their money and took their choice.

the difference here is the designer has a proven track-record and has got the fundamentals right first time.....just as the Robbo was a step up from Rotorway, so the Cabri is a step-up from the 22.....but in terms of durability and safety, it's light-years ahead.
After 4 years, there have been no newsworthy problems.....we'd have heard about them, here on the Rumour-mill if there had been! :}

HH
My post
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers
If I treated my customers as SK or MD I would not have been trading for 2 years let alone 50 years.
HH
Wishes and reality are very often different ...Maybe you don't run a business using 269/300 but H500 does.
Correct but do run a 500, private
The general feeling I get from the industry is we will do it our way, when we feel like it, & at exorbitant cost now go away, don't like it tough, are we trying to get better, why? you are as an owner are stuck with us.
This is not a pop at Bruno, but at the industry in general.
Was talking to a medium sized repair station \ operator yesterday, who on me complaining about 4+ months for repair to MGB said you want my problems regarding warranty lack of back up ( nearly 12 months on one machine aog) & this from a supposed leader! what hope for small operator \ private users.
HH
Hum ... that what you or H500 say to your customers but is it always the reality ?!
No not all ways, cant speak for H500, but when learning to fly training was delivered on time or I was compensated if inconvenienced.
Over the years the customer has been my main focus & at times has cost me considerable losses, due to lack of performance from me or manufacturers, but I have never tried to step aside from what is my responsibility IF I sold it am the person who repairs \ replaces it.
Perhaps this is why we are still going after 50 years
I think the G2 is the way forward modern design, crash worthiness, glass cockpit,not entirely sure cost wise, engine, they must be looking around? looks good & a lot of other +points but as a private owner I want financial stability, look at the slating MD have had, & they had a big customer base. if it is as trouble free as suggested the warranty cost will be small but the feel good factor great.

What are the sales numbers for MD/Schw/Robinson in the USA v Europe (nevermind UK!)

500e

I do understand your feeling about the helicopter industry in general.

But were're speaking here about Guimbal and his G2.

Do you really think that Bruno Guimbal worked during so long time to produce a so up to date aircraft with so many improvements about safety to protect the life of his future customers just to make easy big money at the expense of these customers.

At the present time, he's offering a parts warranty and not a labor warranty, do you really think that it is because he wants to save money to buy a Bentley ?!!!

You would like a perfect warranty. It's not possible yet. You don't want yet to buy a G2 because of that, that is understandable if you don't want to take the minimum risk but maybe you should stop to say that it's because Bruno is abusing you.

P.S : I hope you will keep your 500 when you'll buy a G2 in the future, it's such a nice aircraft !
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Alicopter

I used to run a large family owned logistics operation ( in xs of 100 vehicles) yes you are correct when stating you are investing, but when choosing which to purchase the warrany and sevice would carry a large percentage in deciding where one spent the company money. Bear in mind the vehicles in many cases were working on average 19 hours a day and driving in xs of 100k miles in a year. If wagons werent on the road we didnt have any customers and hence no money in our pockets with the possibility of 450 staff being out of work.
Now lets move forward to the aviation world, Customer service is ****e, we will repair it when we get round to doing it in our own time. We wont provide the spares ( yes Skirosky MD and Eurocopter plus others ). In this day and age the customer is king, if one doesnt look that way you dont have customers unless you are in a monoply position ( to a degree the R22).
Now money is tight and margins are cut to the bone you cant afford to have machines down or be paying for the manufacturers problems.
In my case I was happy to be the Cabri distributor,( went down to see Bruno but was beaten by Cotswold, dont have a problem with and I really hope they survive). I would love to have the machines, yes I can afford them but I am being asked to
1. Take on a very new machine where the oldest one has barely done 1000 hours; so no long term info on reliability
2. No expert maintenance company so am paying for someone else's learning curve
3. Insurance that is more than double a Schweizer ( £ 6000 extra per machine)
4. Go to composite blades , see the problems EC have with theirs
5. go to composite frame, see problems AW have had with theirs
6. Go with a small company that in the words of the owner has/had a cash flow issue
7. Go with a company that took 3 weeks to repond to a sales request, even now the UK distributor in his own words was too busy to reply for 4 days
8. The uncertainity of the economy

This all adds up to me taking an awful lot of risk in investing in a new type and blow me down just when I was going to write out the deposit cheque i am told there is no labour warranty parts only, one risk too far for me I am afraid.
Dont get me wrong most of the above can be levelled at all the manufacturers , if we as consumer dont stand up we will continue to have the pea taken.
To all those giving me a hard time on the subject, havent seen you putting your hand in your pocket !:uhoh:

H500
And you won't see me untill .... I hope soon !

Because I'm giving my money to a thief, oups sorry ! to a commercial operator ;) who has a G2 and I give it to nobody but him when I want to fly in a 2 seats, he's happy and you know what ? I'm happy too !

A commercial operator and a customer happy for the same reason : the Cabri G2 ! :)
.

haha - don't do enough hours PA to make it worthwhile but I'd actually consider a group...

Bruno chose to take a very very big risk by starting this business.

My operator chose to take a risk by buying a G2 with only part warranty.

Maybe he's wrong and crasy but thanks to Bruno's job, he thinks that this risk worth it, he was flying 35 hours a month with a R22, he's flying 50 hours with the G2 (with a 15% increase in hourly rates due to the price of the G2). And he's thinking to buy a second one at the end of next year.

What else ?!!! :)

P.S : he's happy but his wife is even more happy than him !
No, it's not because of me :}, she doesn't miss the previous training helicopter ...
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HeliHenry
i am really pleased that you enjoy flying the G2. You are corect in everything you say about it. I have chosen at the moment to keep the companies money in the bank ( sometimes I wonder if that is such a good idea)
Easy for you to preach when you havent spent Euro 285k

I agree with 500 and hughes, HeliHenry you keep defending Bruno by saying there have been no or few problems with the G2 which makes it all the more incredible that he is not prepared to stand by it by giving a full warranty, even the cheapest cars give at least 12 months.
I am surprised that EU law doesn't insist on warranty under sale of goods like it does to almost every other product. I also think that not giving a full warranty doesn't reflect well on how reliable Bruno thinks his ship will be in service, after all if he thinks the product is excellent how much risk does he think he is exposed to by giving warranty.
Conversely if he is worried about how much he is going to have to shell out on warranty labour costs then why shouldn't potential customers also be wary of how much they are going to have to shell out.
Generally in business you either stand by your product or you plant the seeds of doubt. After all surely Bruno is best placed to gamble on potential warranty costs because he has inside knowledge of how well the product is put together, and the quality of parts he is using to do so.

Right, I didn't spend that amount of money but I'm paying back a part of it and happy doing it. ;)

Hughes500, you have lot of experience in this business and you react depending on that experience so I didn't (and will never) tell you that you are wrong to be carefull. A labor warranty would be perfect.

Maybe you should wait one more year to see if the G2 is still what it is at the present time. There will be more G2 flying so more feedback and maybe ... a labor warranty if guimbal is big enough at that time ! :)
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CHC are doing a good job of frustrating potential customers that click the G2 link on their web page... Which takes you to a domain name company! :ugh:

Every warranty is a limited warranty. Without exception. Does anyone have the actual relevant warranty paragraphs from a commercial contract that we can look at?

HH
I thought I had come up with a great compromise. Asked for a euro10k discount, This money would be used to cover labour IF it went wrong, if it didnt after 2 years the distributor would get the balance plus interest back. Was basically told to poke off. Have now given up for a couple of years unless someone comes back to me:{

H500,

Indeed, your idea was good, you've done the maximum you could. They're still too small.
As you don't want to take any risk, two years are perfects for you : more than 100 G2 flying, more than 100.000 hrs and a fleet leader with about 3000 hrs. the G2 will still be a very good aircraft as it is now then you will be able to say : GO ! :ok:

P.S : mind in which bank you put your money in the meantime ... ;)

and fortunately for you, you're waiting in a old but good aircraft :)
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Light helicopter warranties
 

It wasn't so long ago that the Robinson warranty
was only one year rather than the current two.

http://www.robinsonheli.com/document...4_warranty.pdf

If I stretch my mind back to 1988 and my first R22,there was a problem with the engine after just a few months which necessitated the engine being removed and sent to the Lycoming agent. The engine problem was fixed and the engine re-fitted by the Robinson distributor who then sent me a bill for the labour involved in removal and re-fitting the engine plus transport.

During subsequent discussion I was told that as this was a Lycoming problem I should look to them for reimbursement. To which I replied that I had purchased both the engine and airframe from them as one entity and it was thus their responsibility. I also mentioned Sale of Goods Act and merchantable quality.

No further discussion or correspondence took place.

Cabri Start-up tutorial
 

How to start-up Cabri G2 video produced by Czech flight school LION Helicopters s.r.o.

Cabri G2
 

I am currently looking for a replacement of one of our R22's..

We mainly use the helicopters for training..

We have 3 options
1. Another R22, but i find them pretty expensive in purchase price and also the hourly price difference between the R22 and R44 Raven I is not very great.

2.a R44 raven I, we currently fly 3 of them but we use them mostly for other helicopter operations. a R44 is thus broader useable then the R22.

3. Cabri G2, I hear different stories about this helicopter, some people are very enthousiast about it when others are not that positive..

Can any of you tell me more about you experience with the Cabri ??