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-   -   Guimbal Cabri G2 (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/296022-guimbal-cabri-g2.html)

No Foehn 25th May 2005 19:21

Guimbal Cabri G2
 
The French aviation press this month reports details of the first flight of this new 2 seat piston-engined helicopter planned for JAR27/FAR27 certification and full scale production in 2006. The flight of 1h15 at Aix-les-Milles LFMA apparently went well and is the start of an 80h test programme. The designer, Bruno Guimbal, is formerly of Eurocopter R&D.

Notable features are the high inertia three-bladed fully articulated rotor with unlimited life composite blades, shrouded tail rotor, pretty carbon composite fuselage and crash-worthy seats and fuel system. The engine's a Lycoming (no-one says which one) with electronic ignition and silencer on the exhaust.

The helicopter has been chosen by Eurocopter as the basis for development into a drone.

http://helimat.free.fr/2005/avril/20...ges/3063_l.jpg

Pictures at http://helimat.free.fr/2005/avril/20.../image003.html

Company press release at
http://helimat.free.fr/2005/avril/ 20050401/Daniel_Liron/Communique_Cabri.pdf

I'll post a translation when I get time if anyone asks.

Recuperator 25th May 2005 20:39

Competition?
 
A good looking little machine. Would like to see some specifications and performance on it.

Any chance it could be competition to the Robinson R22?;)

No Foehn 25th May 2005 21:01

A four page article in the French aviation monthly "Aviasport" reports Guimbal claim better flight characteristics than the R22 (but of course they would) and cruise of 100 kts.

They are convinced Robinson are abandoning the R22 and aim to fill the hole in the market. They say they will be able to build one machine a week soon after starting production.

Ian Corrigible 25th May 2005 21:16

Good find. I have been told that the aircraft was developed by former Eurocopter engineers (hence the fenestron), with the tacit support of Marignane.

The EADS VTUAV is the Orka-1200, under consideration by the French armed forces.

I/C

No Foehn 25th May 2005 21:28

There's more than tacit support - EADS is an investor and a sub-contractor making the carbon composite main structure.

The Aviasport article also reports a greater useful load than the R22, externally accessed baggage compartment, and even a/c as an option. They also have a photo of the pilotless clone they're developing for Eurocopter.

Fay Slag 26th May 2005 01:14

In my opinion it looks like a good machine. Its refreshing to see someone design a new two-seater piston and give Robinson and Schweizer a run for their money.
I'm not implying that it should only be used for training but if it fits the bill, why not? Let's hope its not massively slow and uncomfortable (Schweizer) and is more forgiving than the Robbo.

I also quite liked the look of the Ukrainian machine that was posted on here a couple of months ago, but since the designer decided to put a car engine in it, I think we can rule that one out.

I wish the designer of this French/ Italian machine the best of luck.

Fay

Freewheel 27th May 2005 00:29

A quick look at the photos suggests quite a bit's been done since the initial prototype was produced. I always understood the engine was an O-320, but they could always put more power in if it was justified...

I just hope they learn the lessons from the preceding designs in this area of the market, include a bit of inertia into the rotor system (the Enstrom's great here, but midway between the Ennie and the R22 should be enough) and ensure that the crashworthiness doesn't depend on how much luggage you have.
90-100 Knots would be great for 240 odd nm with 2pob, cup holders, donut device etc.

On a serious note again, how about including the cyclic & collective grips from the EC120? The guards seem awfully flimsy - except on the hydralics switch - but it had enough buttons for all the options one could possibly want & it's not going to require a specific build. Might be a method of including a non-open throttle setting for starts too....

I did really like the look of the Bongo, but I was always concerned that the engines might get expensive - thus the problem for anybody wanting to produce a contender in this market. Mind you if the engine proves to be OK, it might be worth trying for the Cabri too.

Anyone else thought it's going to be known as the Cab Ride? How about EC105 or EC110? Can the person who suggests the chosen name get a free one????

Vfrpilotpb 27th May 2005 07:13

If this little Heli entered the Eurovision Song Contest it would win on Looks alone, for such like as Moi, the simple PPL(H) it sounds like it fits the bill!

Breath of fresh Air!!!


Peter R-B
Vfr

Head Turner 27th May 2005 11:00

With a proper rotor head that will allow more scope. The S300 will take some beating.
A starting process like the Robbo will give it a lead. Incidentally what is the drive system?

No Foehn 28th May 2005 22:14

None of the press articles I've seen nor the press release mention the drive system.

Teefor Gage 29th May 2005 10:23

No Foehn
 
There is a mention of crashworthy seats and fuel tanks.
Just a thought, but does it also have a crashworthy floor to support the seats - I know it sound obvious, but some manufacturers of recent models have been known to go this route to save some weight!

Jonp 29th May 2005 18:32

Looks a great machine.

Having searched hi and lo for an email address or even a postal address fro these guys, they are very ilusive. Does anyone have any of these?

Jon P

Ian Corrigible 29th May 2005 21:27

Don't believe they have a website yet (it's still a pretty small team) but the postal address is:

Guimbal Hélicoptères
Aerodrome Aix En Provence
Zone Industrielle Les Milles
Les Milles
Bouches du Rhone
13290
France


I/C

No Foehn 29th May 2005 22:05

Teefor Gage

Translation from the Aviasport article:

"Today's certifications, CS-27 for EASA and FAR-27 for the FAA, impose conditions that the R22 would find completely impossible to meet. For example, one sits very close to the floor in the Robinson. The position is unthinkable wih today's certifications. Accident statistics have shown that anti-crash seats save a great number of of occupants. The shock-absorption given by those in the Cabri comply with the latest standards, making survival possible in a crash completely destroying the machine.

Under the cowling, the 4 cylinder Lycoming of the same type as that of the R22, has benefitted from an advanced fit, notably with electronic ignition and matched exhaust system with silencers. The fuel circuit complies with the most stringent crash standards ( in particular no leaks after a free fall of 15m)."

Jonp

The phone book gives the address as :

Hélicoptères Guimbal SA
Chemin de la Badesse
Les Milles
13290 AIX-EN-PROVENCE
Tél : 04 42 39 10 80

Their press release states that no sales effort has yet been launched, but several operators have already expressed interest.

I'll bet they have! The R22 suddenly looks like a dinosaur, doesn't it?

octavo 29th May 2005 22:20

Isn't the rotor disc a bit low off the ground?

It looks to me that you would have to crawl to and from the heli with rotors running.

No Foehn 29th May 2005 22:24

Well, at least you've only got one passenger who has to do the crawling.

Seriously, though, in one of the photos on the link you can just see someone approaching the helicopter from the right with the wheels. It looks like his head's about level with the top of the cabin.

jellycopter 3rd Sep 2005 10:23

Guimbal Cabri G2
 
I had the good fortune to be a spectator at the first public demonstration flight of this new 2-seat light helicopter at Rouen in France a couple of weeks ago.

I found these pictures on the web and thought some of you may be interested.

http://helimat.free.fr/2005/aout/Rou...YHG/index.html

I particularly like the blades and rotorhead on this machine, real quality.

EASA Certification, I understand, is imminent with deliveries to customers starting early 2006.

Can't wait!

JJ

Hilico 3rd Sep 2005 10:44

In the last three pictures the left-hand side door is open. Is this part of the demo? Did the pilot get too hot? Did it just pop open?

Aesir 3rd Sep 2005 13:41

Looks nice.

Interesting to see how they fit the aft white navigation lights to the back of the red/green lights on the sides. Good solution.

Does anyone know what engine they use?

Ian Corrigible 3rd Sep 2005 16:27

The engine is a Lycoming 0-320 E2.

There was an interesting thread on this a couple of months back: Cabri thread..

I/C

Head Turner 7th Sep 2005 10:19

You certainly have to hand it to the French that they are tops at helicopter design. They have seen the adverse comments of the R22 and produced what looks like the next light helicopter to be found in the training schools and everyones back garden.
The fenestrn blades are all equally spaced which is unusual now that unequal spacing is found to be quieter.
Looks good and spec looks just right. Lets see the flight performance data now.

delta3 7th Sep 2005 11:44

Fenestron

As I mentionned in other related tracks, I attended some VH-diagram testing by the DGAC, in Aix in July.

I do remember, but you have to check perhaps the pictures, that the fenetron is assymetric as it should be.

This maybe difficult to see/confirm because it has 7-blades


d3

bellsux 2nd May 2006 15:47

From Volare, the Italian aviation magazine who did a story on the Cabri recently.

The Italians claim the donk they saw in their machine was a 360 with a fully automatic electical start.
Empty weight of 420, MTOW 700 kg
VNE 120, cruise at 100.
170 litre tank
got to 10000 ft in just over 7 minutes ( picture shows a very stripped down version when they did this) and reached 21840 ft, breaking the piston engine helicopter altitude record.
Belt drive Eng to MGB
Shock proof tank (I remember when I did the AS350 course in the mid eighties and the frogs said it has a "crashproof tank")

Anyway it's all just from the magazine artical, the Italians from Agusta said I would have no problems getting spares for my 109 as well...

TheMonk 13th Oct 2007 00:37

Guimbal Cabri G2
 
http://helimat.free.fr/2005/aout/Rou...YHG/index.html

So anyone know the latest on this model? Is it being offered yetr? Price? Good, bad, ugly?

Thanks,
Monk

mesh1matrix2000 13th Oct 2007 10:12

Cabri
 
Price 260,000 Euros plus tax. Don't think it has been certified yet, you can order via email of their website. http://www.guimbal.com/

TheMonk 13th Oct 2007 13:41

Thanks for the link MM2, but it didn't work for me. This is what I get.

----------------------------------------
Bienvenue sur votre nouveau 90plan

Besoin d'assistance ?

Consultez nos guides :
Mettre votre site en ligne
Gestion des bases MySQL
Utilisation de l'espace streaming
Astuces PHP chez OVH
Taches automatisées (CRON)
Discutez avec nos autres utilisateurs sur notre forum
Toujours pas de solution ? Contactez le support ou téléphonez-nous
Les outils à votre disposition :

Phpmyadmin
Votre consommation
Statistiques
La configuration PHP et PHP5 de votre hébergement
Les modules Perl installés sur votre hébergement
Merci d'avoir choisi OVH
----------------------------------------
Monk

mesh1matrix2000 13th Oct 2007 15:01

Cabri
 
I tested the link just now and it works fine for me. Here is the email address
[email protected]

Graviman 13th Oct 2007 16:11

Interesting rotor head, with lots of nice expensive castings. I couldn't quite see how the bearing worked inside that Y root. Is it a plain spherical bearing/bush (fully articulated) or is there no flapping movement (hingeless)?

The pitch horn angle suggests hingeless, but with three rotors i would guess it is articulated to avoid 3P vibration. If so, why not stick to cheaper teetering head. :confused:

Notice the strain gages on the red blade set. I guess the machine is still going through fatigue life determination testing. The more i learn about fatigue life prediction using residual strain energy, the more scared i become stressing parts. Maybe that fancy LCD instrument display will have HUMS installed too.
http://helimat.free.fr/2005/aout/Rou.../5IMG_6056.jpg

No Foehn 13th Oct 2007 18:11

According to a review in the French magazine "Aviation International" the head is semi-rigid, and very similar to that of the EC120. Bruno Guimbal, the designer, was the deputy head of the EC120 development project at Eurocopter.

Dave_Jackson 13th Oct 2007 18:49

Mart,
EC 120 ~ Rotor Head

500e 13th Oct 2007 19:23

I had same page as Monk
Price seems within ball park for new helio with latest gismos But what engine?
Please not a Lycasorus:(

Graviman 13th Oct 2007 19:37

Ah, thanks guys! I guess they tune the stiffness to keep blade 3/4 wavelength mode below 3P then, while keeping good cyclic control for reduced g manouvres. Nice reliable design, although i wonder about the control forces.

I've dealt with Lord, Trelleborg and Silentblock for spherelastic bearings, and have always been impressed at what they were capable of withstanding. The only problem i've ever come across is that they are difficult to life, especially if you cannot define the exact duty cycle. Failure is easy to spot though from rubber splitting, and the failure mode is nice and progressive.

Dave did you ever get anywhere with your compliant hub design? I always thought this was one of your best ideas.

That fenestron looks interesting in a small helicopter too. How does it handle foward flight, without teetering and delta3? Does the advancing side end up producing most of the thrust, or is that a cyclic servo i see?
http://helimat.free.fr/2005/aout/Rou.../1IMG_6051.jpg

HOSS 1 13th Oct 2007 22:00


>>>"The more i learn about fatigue life prediction using residual strain energy, the more scared i become stressing parts."

I thought everyone used Miner's Cumulative Damage. Do the cert agencies allow life determination with a residual strain energy method?


The strain gage there is quite standard in flight test programs. Most control system loads can be correlated to PR load.
HOSS

Dave_Jackson 13th Oct 2007 22:10

Mart,

compliant hub design
Heck, I've looked at just about every other type of hub design there is, in an attempt to win the 'Nick Lappos Free Lunch Award'.
At the present time a small snack on a paper plate would look good. :)

Dave

Graviman 13th Oct 2007 23:15

Hoss, I have no doubt the team that designed the Cabri know what they are doing.

Miners law allows you to combine a number of different loadcases to determine the overall fatigue damage, or to determine the life of a component. The problem is working out where each loadcase is on the Stress-Number_of_cycles curve. For stress calcs the traditional method is using the Goodman's diagram, or variations of it, to combine average and cyclic stress into an equivalent cyclic only stress to check against S-N curve. The problem is that this method is not accurate in life prediction, as there is huge scatter in coupon S-N testing.

A more recent development comes from the understanding that even below the elastic limit there is some residual strain after each load application. Basically the material is not perfectly elastic, but always recovers alongs Young's modulus. Consider the 0.2% plastic strain proof stress generally regarded as material yield, if you reach this then unload the component you will have a residual 2000 microstrain. Lets say taking the component to half Ultimate Tensile Strength, then unloading it leaves a residual strain of 1 microstrain. This means you can do this 2000 times before the component reaches a strain where it yields on the next application.

If any of the design engineers that occationally appear from the aether vaccum can offer good practical guidance here, i'm interested BTW. It seems to me that the only chance of producing reliable numbers is to use the fatigue software built into many FE codes. It's a specialised area.

If anyone else is interested in fatigue, here is some general info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29

CentralS 10th Nov 2007 17:31


According to a review in the French magazine "Aviation International"
http://www.aviation-international.ae...rticle=1&aff=1

Direct link to the two reviews at bottom of this page:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabri_G2

It's in french, with nice pictures.

mesh1matrix2000 11th Nov 2007 18:18

cabri g2
 
According to the developer this Helicopter will have a full EASA cs-27 certification signed this month. More information on their web site will follow along with magazine flight reviews.

maxtork 31st Dec 2007 21:26

Looks like it made the grade...

http://www.amtonline.com/article/art...tion=1&id=4879

If it now has EASA certification I wonder how long before it shows up here in the states.

Max

Peter-RB 31st Dec 2007 23:31

It seems to have a pretty substantial amount of engineering(almost over engineered) in the Rotorhead, and has nuts and bolts that seem a first glance to far bigger in size that the R22 that this new heli seems to be aimed at, plus the price seems to be in the right ball park also!

About time some one had the ability to compete with Franky the Yankee, it may push him into more spectacular things now!

Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb

Happy new to one and all!!:D

ES: it says in the Lit that it has the Lycoming 0-360!!

Zero Thrust 1st Jan 2008 08:36

Cabri
 
A friend of mine here in France who has ordered one of the 12 that have had deposits paid for reckons that it autos on a par with a Bel 47.

The chap that owns my airfield is a supplier of plastic moulds for it.

Price is more expensive than an R22 so it will be difficult to break into the market.

It does have a dedicated baggage locker in the fuselage.

Have you seen the demo video from Rennes ? Quite impressive and up to D Kenyon H300C level.

http://216.122.254.24/Cabri%20Helicopter.htm

Stills here:

http://www.jiepie.com/files/guimbal/...es/index2.html


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