jumpseater

ST
Considering the accident occured at 10.00 am,

AAIB
Of the jets
Their approved time of entry into the LFA was 1030 hrs and, although the
exact time at which they passed the accident site could not be determined, the aircraft had to negotiate bad weather and were delayed on their intended flight plan. They did not enter the low flying area until after 1030 hrs.

Several people however, heard the helicopter. Witnesses, at a farm 1,200 metres north-east of the accident site, clearly heard the engine sound from G-OUEL as it passed low overhead. One of these witnesses heard the continuous sound of the engine suddenly stop with a bang, which she likened to a rifle shot.
So she heard a single helicopter, If the Chinook was in the vicinity I would have expected any witnesses to be describing the very characteristic sound of the 'wokka'. Even to a lay person its a very distinctive sound.

When the Chinook approached Teviothead some 10 minutes after G-OUEL, low cloud beyond this point caused the experienced RAF helicopter pilot, with his navigator, to decide not to continue south


The radar recorded only one primary radar return in the vicinity of the accident site, at 1004 hrs.

So no other primary returns, and no secondary returns showing 7001 the mil low level conspicuity squawk either.

scottishterrier

Once again thank you !

I am well aware of the content of the report.

My initial post on this subject was reference the Accident Inquiry which has just ended in Edinburgh and the evidence and testimony given. Final summation of the court may take a while to be made public.

As far as the report goes, Just because it says so in the AAIB report does not mean it actually occured. Conjecture and second guessing. Sadly there is only one individual who knows exactly what happens or one that would give the truth. He is no longer available, so why does the AAIB seek to condemn him ? It is not dissimilar to the Kintyre incident where the crews parents and family have fought tooth and nail to clear their name. I also believe the AAIB investigator is ex MOD !

The report Stinks !

As for the competency for the investigators, did they not drive off from the scene dropping tagged evidence behind? And did they not leave the scene having not found a part of the blade?, which of course was found later by a group of locals who intentionally went to look for it. Also why did the report take so long to be made public if it was so cut and dry ?

ST

212man

No, inexperienced non-Instrumented rated pilots have a history of mishap due to poor weather, some in Robinsons, some in other rotary types and some in fixed wing types. In fact, the mishaps are not due to the bad weather - they are due to poor decision making with regard to the poor weather.

Last time I checked, GPS memories tended to be pretty objective and accurate sources of information.

They do not 'condemn' him - that is your subjective view of the AAIB's inevitable conclusion.

Strangely enough, there are many pilots out there who have had both a military career and a civilian one, and who are therefore endowed with a breadth and depth of experience considered highly valuable. So, you object to the AAIB employing the most experienced pilots they can recruit, and, incidentally, who will continue to operate every few weeks with a civil operator to maintain currency?

You are exhibiting the tendencies not of a terrier, but of Al Fayed

Rather than running around saying he avoided a fast jet/Chinook/UFO* (*delete or add other objects as desired), it wasn't his fault and it's all a big cover up, why not spend some of your energy campaigning for better education amongst private pilots for subjects such as practical weather assessment, cockpit management (I mean practical while on a navex etc, not CRM) and decision making. All commercial pilots are regularly checked and trained, private pilots are not. Or lobby for better IF training in the PPL(H) syllabus, or something constructive and helpful that may prevent a future occurence.

scooter boy

Inexperience and poor decision making are the issues here.

The friends and family of the bereaved will find this difficult to accept (like Al Fayed) but we are all capable of accidents based on poor judgement. Those of us who are lucky enough to survive them learn from it and avoid making the same mistake twice.

When I did my R44 type rating my instructor insisted we "cloud flew" for about 3 of the 5 hours. This gave me the stupid overconfidence to go IMC once or twice in my 44 to get above/under cloud layers. I have a current fixed wing IR but the R44 is nothing like a fixed wing aircraft when you are in the soup. There is no autopilot and the whole machine is inherently far more unstable. IMC in a Robbo is a pretty quick way to end your days.
If you can't stay visual then put it down on the ground and wait, or turn around but out of ground contact with no visible horizon is not a good place to be in a simple helicopter.

RIP

SB

Helinut

scooter boy,

In the light of your description, I suspect I can guess the family name of the instructor........


Helinut

scottishterrier

212,

You are correct. Historically it is the less experienced who have pushed the limits of themselves and the capabilities in an un stabilised machine. Unfortunately these have happened to be mostly in Robinsons.

The GPS information merely tells where the occurence was in the previous period with limited altitude information due to a number of factors.
It does not tell what exactly happened nor does it record the visibility conditions.

Let me ask you all, and this is directed to pilots who operate Enstrom B47 HU296 and also 212/412 's with the governor failed or off.

In the report the AAIB goes some way to explain the operation of the manual throttle. WHY
He goes further
[quote
[/quote]
He addsNow we all or at least most of us know how the throttle operates. The reporter states that the trottle operates a natural motion in the left hand but claims would be unnatural or not intuitive to a motorcyclist. Do the flyers of the previously mentioned types operate the throttle intuitively or even instinctively? I have flown all of them and believe operation is indeed instinctive.

Why the connection with motorcyclists ? Well as it happened this unfortunate man was a former British Super Bike Champion, 11 times Isle of Man TT winner whos throttle control by his right hand was without challenge. Yet give him a throttle to operate by his left hand however natural the operation and he will have difficulty ??! I think NOT.
The man also happened to be a CORRIE-FISTER or for those south of the border LEFT HANDED .


Scooter,
The problem here is that witnesses on the ground disagree with the fact that, as you choose to put it, DREADFUL WEATHER.

The facts are In this case the pilot delayed his flight due to the weather on the previous afternoon/evening. His judgement was indeed correct at this time.

Hummingfrog

ST

Interesting comment about the throttle and the sense in which it operates. I learned to fly on the Whirlwind 10 which had a manual throttle for use when the computer failed. The RAF was always keen for us to fly without aids so manual throttle was used a fair bit and I found it non-intuitive and was always closing the throttle as I raised the collective. My only previous usage of a twist grip throttle was on a motorbike which uses the opposite movement to open the throttle so under stress I can easily see why a motorcyclist would unconsciously revert to a movement he was very familiar with.

I can see that you are trying to provide an alternate reason for this tragic accident but it does have all the hallmarks of an UFIT accident. The most compelling witness being the one who only heard the helicopter go over followed by the sound of the crash - no fast jet noise and no wokka blade slap.

RIP Steve

HF

212man

I think it DOES tell you, with sufficient accuracy, that the flight path prior to the accident was not one commensurate with taking avoiding action. So, the tailboom severance was NOT a result of an abrupt pull up (following late sighting of a fast jet etc.)

The wording in the report about the GPS accuracy is deliberately conservative - don't forget that instrument approaches are predicated on this system.

As for the throttle, well now you are talking sense. FOLLOWING his loss of control and subsequent descent, he MAY well have operated the throttle in the incorrect sense as a result of instinct and conditioned learning.

Interestingly, Russian helicopters use the the throttle in the opposite sense.

kevin_mayes

Hi, Chaps.

I have a Bell-47 and spent lots of time riding a trials bike on the moors, so I can say that the throttle direction has caused me to hesitate and think on more than one occaision, once gettting it completely wrong (near to the ground, so we just did a run on landing - which probably looked quite good from outside) I know its the left hand that you use in the heli, and the right hand on the motorbike, but I still have problems....

Kevin.

eagle 86

Over many years I had many basic students that rode motorbikes - we always asked them prior to the first flight. Never experienced major problems with rolling the throttle the wrong way. If you think about it - revs low - RRPM gauge unwinds anti-clockwise - natural tendency is to "push" the revs higher with the throttle and vice versa with high revs.
GAGS
E86

scottishterrier

Thanks guys for the input regarding throttle control.

Frog,

My point was that on a helicopter the throttle is controlled by the left hand. I simply dont see the connection. I have been riding sports bikes for years and before I even started flying. I did not have any difficulty with the operation of either. I was using my bike every day during my basic flight training, although it stood in the garage for some time once I had qualified which looking back was an unbeatable thrill.

Bear in mind the witness to whom you refer was quoted in the report, there was however further witnesses at the FAI who did hear noise of other traffic and saw the Chinook.

You are spot on regarding my looking for an altenate reason, I do not have time for sheep who will follow the flock and not think for themselves. It is without doubt that I have a personal interest in this case.

212,

I do not doubt or challenge the accuracy of GPS information if it interpreted correctly, Differential GPS is some way different to the capability of a skyforce moving map .
Instinct and conditioned learning, Im sorry,my whole point is he was conditioned to operate a throttle with his right hand on a motorcyle and he was trained on an Enstrom using a left handed throttle and his dominant hand was his left.

Do you think when Jonathan Palmer was doing his helicopter training he was predisposed to applying right pedal when he wished to accelarate and left to slow up? , or that the late Colin Mcrae had a tendancy to heel and toe in the turn ? did Barry Sheene have trouble ?

I have resisted the temptation to add to this thread in the past. I was however motivated to repond to Mr Barclay, and now the FAI has completed Im happy the debate is reopened

ST

212man

What, like deriving the position, groundspeed, track and altitude? What else would you like to interpret? It works well enough to put Mach 3 bombs through windows, I'm sure it can give a reasonable estimation of a 120 kt helicopter's last minute or two.

Ok, so we all agree then, he was not reacting to a late sighting of a fast jet/Chinook/UFO, he was not plagued by unhelpful instinctive throttle responses as a result of his motorcycle experience, and the weather was crap (which is a bad thing for low hour PPLs,) and maybe the reference to the ex-MOD AAIB investigator was a red herring.

Remind me - what exactly was the discussion/disagreement about, other than "low hour PPL inadvertently enters IMC and loses control and may or may not have chopped the tail boom of in his attempted recovery." Oh, yes he did, oh no he didn't....ad infinitum.

scottishterrier

212,

NO, I'm sure you wont be surprised to be told, I do not agree.

The technology required to put munitions through windows is I'm sure far more advanced than skyforce, which I guess is indicated by price.

Your assumption of what actually happened in the final minutes of this flight is only what you read from the report.

What I've said previously is that the information given to the FAI and that not included in the AAIB report counters what was claimed in the report.

The discussion that I entered into was one that evidence give at the FAI was inconsistent in some areas to the AAIB report.

ST

212man

No, it's based on experience and is supported by the views of the report - also based on experience.

In my 23 years and 11,000 hours of experience, I have lost 3 close friends and several colleagues. Others, with more years and time than me, will recount similar figures, and will consider my experience limited by comparison with their's. That notwithstanding, I think I have a pretty good handle on what a 96 hour pilot will or will not do when he goes IMC by mistake, without an IR. Why do you think the IR was invented ?

scottishterrier

212,

Yes,

You are correct, we all are aware what our early flying experiences were like and the history of losses of low time colleagues and those who had plenty.

Despite all your experience will you agree with what a report states just because it is commited to print and is then challenged by evidence given in Court.

Do also believe there is WMD's in Iraq, Just cause Blair and his Mates put in a report.

11,000 Hrs is indeed a credible period in the industry. Pray tell, which of the 250 Hrs per year, gives you the unique qualifiaction as an expert in this accident.

ST

Bravo73

Huh? 11K / 23 = 478

Say again s l o w l y

Is this still going on? Whilst I've always been a Hizzie fan, the simple fact is that it's another Robbo flying into cloud and chopping the tail off.

I thought this had all been dealt with months ago, or is it a case of the family not believing that Hislop could make a mistake?

jumpseater

Bear in mind the witness to whom you refer was quoted in the report, there was however further witnesses at the FAI who did hear noise of other traffic and saw the Chinook.

Indeed the Chinook in the vicinity was in an adjacent valley ten minutes later. The 'ear witness' who heard the 'tail boom snap', didn't comment on the Chinook being there. Odd that, that if a Chinook were in the same valley simultaneously, she didn't notice it.

Also from the FAI according to the Scotsman
STEVEN Hislop sent a text message complaining about the weather just hours before the crash, a fatal accident inquiry heard yesterday.

He began his flight despite the poor weather conditions, the court heard.

The court was told how, on the morning of the crash, Wendy Stevenson, a friend, received a text message from him. It read: "F****** rain, it will no be until after lunchtime until I get away."

And the accident occurred at 10:00am.

Scissorlink

Private pilot+too much money+helicopter+ego+bad weather = DEAD !! End of Story. Until these guys learn they're not invincible and when in rough weather they're way out of there depth we will keep reading about this happening. I can think of two accidents here in NZ in the last 3 years resulting in the death of two completely innocent passengers from the same kind of scenario


SL

212man

As you can see by the consensus opinion, it's a far from unique qualification.

I started my IF training (in FW) at about the 75 hour mark, and it included real limited panel - no ADI or DI, including QGH let downs. I well remember a session doing unusual attitude recovery, where the instructor would kindly trim the a/c for about 40 kts, roll it over into a dive then ask me to recover. Obviously the stick forces would build rapidly and it was imperative that you set 1 g on the g-meter before attempting to roll level using the turn needle. On one occasion I allowed a bit of back stick to develop whilst trying to move the needle off the stop and simply continued in a rolling dive, with the situation getting progressively worse until I was told to look out and was able to recover immediately (just before we hit Vne!) Had I been in that situation on my own and in real IMC I would have either hit the ground or massively overstressed the aircraft.

It's also important to realise that even experienced pilots in large multi engined machines with autopilots can also lose control in the right/wrong cicumstances. If you allow the speed to drop below Vmini it is very easy to rapidly 'lose it'. I've seen it many times in the simulator, and occasionally had to hang on tight while trying to reach for the stop button. Sadly, in real life there is no stop button